CPL General

[Ansem]

3 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

There was an earlier proposal in which CanPL was going to be in the North American regional stage:

A Leagues Cup type format involving only MLS and Liga MX has replaced this.

There was aleays going to be a League Cup with CCL berth attached to it

CPL playing home and away in Round 1 or a group stage format makes little difference - they are playing before the knockout stage

[Ansem]

15 minutes ago, narduch said:

Trying to turn a positive for the CPL to a negative. Par for the course for OTP.

Even bringing up the ratings for the MLS all star game is kind of laughable. That is a one off super hyped game. MLS and Liga MX should keep that format, but that is besides the point.

In my opinion the expanded Leagues Cup will end up being a dud long term, even with 3 Champions League games up for grabs

That's true - Most Mexican fans only care about winning CCL, not really about winning every single matchup. When MX team lose to MLS, they dismiss it as "counter-performances" from their clubs the same way MLS purists do when CPL eliminates an MLS side. I'm not sure how much Mexicans truly cares about the League Cup. I expect most would start paying attention at the Knockout Stage. This is purly from a fans perspective

MX owners perspectives is any chance at exposures and opportunity at the US market is just good business in the end, it's all about their bottom line and making more money. They don't need a merger - they already won (more money without losing power/control)

For MLS, more games against MX means more drawing power for their clubs fanbase. For the league to be pushing hard on this League Cup - they see it as a booster for TV, merch, tickets metrics. 

For the US fans - that's more meaningful/interesting games to look forward too and this "add on" might increase their conversion rates and getting a significant increase of new fans to stick around during MLS season.

As for the CPL angle - I don't buy the "conspiracy" that they plotted to exclude CPL which wasn't part of the cup nor a co-founder to begin with. CPL retains their 2 berths to the 1st round and could be facing anyone from the region depending how the draw is decided. Heck we stand a chance to draw a Costa Rican club and advance to the round of 16 while in the previous group stage - we were destined to get destroyed most of the time.

Why would CPL hate this scenario? We proved that we aren't going to be any worst than Panama, Honduras or potentially Costa Rican clubs.

In the end, everyone wins.

PS: If I wanted to be anti MLS - I'd start the debate that they don't deserve that many berth after such a one-sided performance vs Mexico and that Central America got F'D real hard on this. But my analysis was just from a North American perspective

Edited September 24, 2021 by Ansem

[red card]

My thoughts for the new Leagues Cup:

CPL: Chance for an additional revenue stream lost. Gap widens with MLS. But pausing schedule for a month in August would have created scheduling headaches & attendance issues. If they get the rights, it's a good way for OneSoccer to get more into MLS and broaden appeal for their liga MX matches.

MLS: Will bolster tv revenue since it will be sold separately. Good inventory of games but there will be quite of bit of unappealing matchups. Get to finally leach off the most watched league in the US. Get to take away monies from any International Champions friendlies. But it could also mean less of need to sign Mexican players. 

It ends merger talks as this in effect is a mini North American Super League. Too many issues to consider for a merger today but Leagues Cup could help in creating structural changes. I heard the prize money will be good but will players want a higher salary also? It will shorten the too long off season.

Another example of MLS advancing commercially without too much thought about the sporting side. MLS doesn't have enough depth for more matches. MLS has lost about 75% of their matches with liga MX. MLS aims for parity within MLS but now will have to decide if they want parity with liga MX. Unambitious MLS teams will further have their failures exposed to their fanbase. Future of US Open Cup is put further in doubt.

liga MX: Failure to previously capitalize on their league's popularity in the US now means they'll need to share the spoils with MLS. Good for the lower tier clubs who have no mindshare in the US. Good content for Spanish language tv in the US. Could mean more liga MX clubs in CCL.

No home pitch advantage and at the beginning of their apertura v mid-season for MLS. MLS clubs could overrun Leagues Cup with continued expansion. 

Concacaf: Had to get involved as they were in danger of being left behind. CCL has been compromised and TBD if it gets overtaken by Leagues Cup. Wonder how much of Concacaf's beaks are being dipped in Leagues Cup revenues. Widens the gap between MLS/liga MX and rest of the other leagues. Good that it staves of any merger between MLS/liga MX for the near to mid-term.

 

Leagues Cup Final between Leon & Sounders got 219k on TUDN and 133k on ESPN2 or 352k total. It was also shown on Unimas but no ratings released yet. Total number is in line with MLS games on ESPN but just ESPN number is more in line with MLS games on FS1.

Most watched sports on US tv that night were AEW 1.3m; PTI 587k; NYMvRedSox afternoon 541k; & Sportscenter Early 425k. 

[Kent]

I think the Leagues Cup changes are a pretty obvious trial run/next step for a merged league. In 2019 it started with 4 MLS teams and 4 Liga MX teams. In 2020 it was supposed to be 8 teams from each league (but it wasn't played at all because COVID), but this year they went back to 4 and 4.

So they started with 4+4 teams. Then decided that worked well enough and would go to 8+8. Now they are going all in with every team from both leagues, and stopping their own leagues for a MONTH. This is a pilot episode here. If it works financially, they probably do something to the format to get more games in. This absolutely could grow to the point where it just swallows up everything and all of a sudden you have your super league.

Someone mentioned they thought the CPL would have a chance to one day enter the Leagues Cup if their level of play rises enough. I don't think it has a chance of happening. Playing against Calgary or Ottawa doesn't do anything for American TV ratings, but the Mexican teams can drive ratings, and ticket sales.

I also agree with Ozzie, and I'll assume the CCL will start at a similar time of year as it does now, until it's proven otherwise. Hopefully it's later because it's true that would make things difficult for CPL. I think they will have guys on their roster at that time, but my concern is them having a training camp before it starts and being able to play home games in CCL.

As for the 2 spots for CPL and the format for CCL, I have mixed feelings. I wish there was a group, and I will miss the CONCACAF League as well. The top bunch of seeds will likely be MLS and Liga MX teams, so a high chance of the CPL teams drawing them. So yeah, there is a good chance of selling a lot of tickets, but also a good chance of it being a one and done more often than not. CONCACAF League is a lower level, and played at a better time.

[narduch]

21 minutes ago, Kent said:

I think the Leagues Cup changes are a pretty obvious trial run/next step for a merged league. In 2019 it started with 4 MLS teams and 4 Liga MX teams. In 2020 it was supposed to be 8 teams from each league (but it wasn't played at all because COVID), but this year they went back to 4 and 4.

So they started with 4+4 teams. Then decided that worked well enough and would go to 8+8. Now they are going all in with every team from both leagues, and stopping their own leagues for a MONTH. This is a pilot episode here. If it works financially, they probably do something to the format to get more games in. This absolutely could grow to the point where it just swallows up everything and all of a sudden you have your super league.

Someone mentioned they thought the CPL would have a chance to one day enter the Leagues Cup if their level of play rises enough. I don't think it has a chance of happening. Playing against Calgary or Ottawa doesn't do anything for American TV ratings, but the Mexican teams can drive ratings, and ticket sales.

I also agree with Ozzie, and I'll assume the CCL will start at a similar time of year as it does now, until it's proven otherwise. Hopefully it's later because it's true that would make things difficult for CPL. I think they will have guys on their roster at that time, but my concern is them having a training camp before it starts and being able to play home games in CCL.

As for the 2 spots for CPL and the format for CCL, I have mixed feelings. I wish there was a group, and I will miss the CONCACAF League as well. The top bunch of seeds will likely be MLS and Liga MX teams, so a high chance of the CPL teams drawing them. So yeah, there is a good chance of selling a lot of tickets, but also a good chance of it being a one and done more often than not. CONCACAF League is a lower level, and played at a better time.

I still think this tournament struggles with authenticity even with the added CCL spots.

I just don't understand the MLS Liga MX merger talks at all. The optimal number of teams in a 1st division soccer league is 18-20 teams. How will you manage a league with 47+ teams?

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

6 hours ago, Kent said:

...This absolutely could grow to the point where it just swallows up everything and all of a sudden you have your super league...

They could still follow the pre-2000 National and American Leagues scenario in Major League Baseball rather than going for a complete legal merger even if it is effectively a shared Mexico-USA-Canada superleague for all intents and purposes. Probably no coincidence that relegation from Liga MX has been suspended despite FIFA statutes.

This month long break in season could also be a first step on the road to a Liga MX style apertura and clausura season format in an MLS context that would break more easily for World Cup final tournaments when they return to their normal timing again post-Qatar. That could also ultimately be used to help position the soccer playoff season away from what is happening with the NFL and MLB and less importantly (outside Canada anyway) the NHL and NBA.

Things to watch now to gauge where CanPL fits in this landscape in soccer association politics terms are whether the 2020 Canadian Championship final ever actually happens or is just quietly forgotten about, and whether MLS receives CSA sanctioning for reserve teams in Vancouver and Montreal in its new U-23 league unlike what was reported to be happening in a USL context.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[SoccMan]

10 hours ago, narduch said:

I still think this tournament struggles with authenticity even with the added CCL spots.

I just don't understand the MLS Liga MX merger talks at all. The optimal number of teams in a 1st division soccer league is 18-20 teams. How will you manage a league with 47+ teams?

At this point I don’t think a merger is ever happening not in the foreseeable future anyways , however, this is probably the best compromise both leagues have come up with. I haven’t looked into it  thoroughly yet , but have they decided how they are going to do this?  Is it going to be a one game knockout March Madness sort of thing or are they doing a World Cup groups phase thing? Moreover, is this going to be taken place in selected cities hosting these games or will teams be playing in their own stadiums? 

[narduch]

9 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

At this point I don’t think a merger is ever happening not in the foreseeable future anyways , however, this is probably the best compromise both leagues have come up with. I haven’t looked into it  thoroughly yet , but have they decided how they are going to do this?  Is it going to be a one game knockout March Madness sort of thing or are they doing a World Cup groups phase thing? Moreover, is this going to be taken place in selected cities hosting these games or will teams be playing in their own stadiums? 

The rumor I saw was 16 groups with 32 team knock out stage.

Although that leaves 1 group with only 2 teams.

The silly thing is teams that are knocked out early will essentially have a 2 or 3 week break in the heart of their season.

I wonder if this also means MLS will stop expanding at 30 teams. There are currently 29 teams confirmed by 2023.

 

 

[narduch]

8 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

This month long break in season could also be a first step on the road to a Liga MX style apertura and clausura season format in an MLS context that would break more easily for World Cup final tournaments when they return to their normal timing again post-Qatar. That could also ultimately be used to help position the soccer playoff season away from what is happening with the NFL and MLB and less importantly (outside Canada anyway) the NHL and NBA.

 

Assuming the Leagues Cup is in August, an Apertura-Clausura system doesn`t really make sense unless you are ok with the schedule being unbalanced between the 2 seasons.

[SoccMan]

22 minutes ago, narduch said:

The rumor I saw was 16 groups with 32 team knock out stage.

Although that leaves 1 group with only 2 teams.

The silly thing is teams that are knocked out early will essentially have a 2 or 3 week break in the heart of their season.

I wonder if this also means MLS will stop expanding at 30 teams. There are currently 29 teams confirmed by 2023.

 

 

Ok cool, in terms of expansion it’s always been trying to get into most of the major tv markets in the US for the MLS.  Therefore, Phoenix and Detroit come too mind for future expansion I would think . I think expansion stops once they are in most of the biggest TV markets .  Bringing this back to the CPL now yes they need to be in the big cities but as Halifax has shown I think the CPL’s potential in smaller markets is huge . That’s why I would love to see cities like London , Windsor, Kitchener, Regina , Quebec City , Moncton in the CPL . I think the MLS is almost done with it’s expansion apart from a few more , however, the CPL has much more expansion to do and the cities are there just need to get the right owners on board .

Edited September 25, 2021 by SoccMan

[Trois Reds]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

The rumor I saw was 16 groups with 32 team knock out stage.

Although that leaves 1 group with only 2 teams.

The silly thing is teams that are knocked out early will essentially have a 2 or 3 week break in the heart of their season.

I wonder if this also means MLS will stop expanding at 30 teams. There are currently 29 teams confirmed by 2023.

 

 

Delete this part.

As for MLS, I wouldn't be surprised if they went the way of all the other U.S. leagues and stopped at 32.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Trois Reds
Bad math

[narduch]

Just now, Trois Reds said:

By the time it starts, St. Louis and Charlotte will have joined, so there will be one group of four. 

No the count of 47 teams includes them both.

29 MLS and 18 Liga MX

[Trois Reds]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

No the count of 47 teams includes them both.

29 MLS and 18 Liga MX

Whoops, I counted them twice. My bad.

[nfitz]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

No the count of 47 teams includes them both.

29 MLS and 18 Liga MX

Surely there must be CPL clubs or we wouldn't be discussing it here. Besides, need 17 more to bring it to 64, so can have a proper knockout competition.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

 

[Watchmen]

On 9/25/2021 at 7:07 AM, narduch said:

I wonder if this also means MLS will stop expanding at 30 teams. There are currently 29 teams confirmed by 2023.

 

 

They had a 30th team already awarded until the funding for Sacramento left. There's literally zero chance they stop at 29, and I'd guess they follow the other leagues and push to 32 at least.

Edited September 29, 2021 by Watchmen

[Watchmen]

On 9/24/2021 at 8:05 PM, narduch said:

I still think this tournament struggles with authenticity even with the added CCL spots.

Maybe. We'll see. UEFA just created a new tournament, and it seems to be popular with the smaller teams.

On 9/24/2021 at 8:05 PM, narduch said:

I just don't understand the MLS Liga MX merger talks at all. The optimal number of teams in a 1st division soccer league is 18-20 teams. How will you manage a league with 47+ teams?

You wouldn't. You'd establish pro/rel as part of the merger. It would be a way for the more ambitious MLS sides to weed out the less ambitious ones.

[narduch]

36 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

They had a 30th team already awarded until the funding for Sacramento left. There's literally zero chance they stop at 29, and I'd guess they follow the other leagues and push to 32 at least.

Then the Leagues Cup becomes a 50 team tournament. 

[Watchmen]

4 minutes ago, narduch said:

Then the Leagues Cup becomes a 50 team tournament. 

I wouldn't get too caught up in the number of teams. March Madness was 64 teams but they just keep adding more teams and "play in" rounds. No "Champions League" ever involves just the champions anymore. I think it's just about finding a format that fans find entertaining, and if they do then that will legitimize it.

[Unnamed Trialist]

One thing constantly standing out for me in highlight reels: no pressure on the ball. Defenders and mids, and even strikers coming back to help, but sitting back, leaving too much space and time for attacking mids or wingers. I am not sure if it is fitness, match congestion, travel, or playing on relatively large pitches, but it really stands out in comparison to better leagues. And even then, MLS is often similar. 

Not even in Spain 5th tier do I see such lounging around.

You can give time on the ball to CBs, if you prefer them to play out, or if the ball is around the centre line, or if you feel you are so inferior you have to go into a shell. But that is not what we are seeing. Most teams, and especially the weaker they get, have mids and even defenders who sit back, hang around, shoot the shit, take in the view. 

Honestly, if we want to be able to gauge the quality of the league, of goal-scorers for example, we need to raise the pressure on the ball from defences, in general, across the board.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Unnamed Trialist

[Ftduck]

38 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

One thing constantly standing out for me in highlight reels: no pressure on the ball. Defenders and mids, and even strikers coming back to help, but sitting back, leaving too much space and time for attacking mids or wingers. I am not sure if it is fitness, match congestion, travel, or playing on relatively large pitches, but it really stands out in comparison to better leagues. And even then, MLS is often similar. 

Not even in Spain 5th tier do I see such lounging around.

You can give time on the ball to CBs, if you prefer them to play out, or if the ball is around the centre line, or if you feel you are so inferior you have to go into a shell. But that is not what we are seeing. Most teams, and especially the weaker they get, have mids and even defenders who sit back, hang around, shoot the shit, take in the view. 

Honestly, if we want to be able to gauge the quality of the league, of goal-scorers for example, we need to raise the pressure on the ball from defences, in general, across the board.

Agreed. All 3 Concacaf League games I've been to in Hamilton I have always been impressed with the pressure and ball control, right  out of the gate, of the visiting team. It always seams to be on another level. 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

...Most teams, and especially the weaker they get, have mids and even defenders who sit back, hang around, shoot the shit, take in the view...

Ball watching is probably a relevant piece of terminology. The other thing that has been standing out for me in recent weeks is the way teams wind up being needlessly over elaborate at the back to the extent that one of their teammates winds up easily getting caught in possession or they force the play across their own goalmouth with all too predictable consequences. Makes me wonder whether players are reluctant to launch it route one or simply concede a throw-in when it's the sensible thing to do because it will mess up their personal stats in all the analytics stuff that they do nowadays.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Ball watching is probably a relevant piece of terminology. The other thing that has been standing out for me in recent weeks is the way teams wind up being needlessly over elaborate at the back to the extent that one of their teammates winds up easily getting caught in possession or they force the play across their own goalmouth with all too predictable consequences. Makes me wonder whether players are reluctant to launch it route one or simply concede a throw-in when it's the sensible thing to do because it will mess up their personal stats in all the analytics stuff that they do nowadays.

I actually mentioned it but no one will take it seriously: reduce pitch sizes and we'll have more intensity. For new leagues like ours it's better for the football. But of course worse for fans in the many venues we have already too far from the pitches. 

[Kent]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I actually mentioned it but no one will take it seriously: reduce pitch sizes and we'll have more intensity. For new leagues like ours it's better for the football. But of course worse for fans in the many venues we have already too far from the pitches. 

Have you seen leagues/teams do this? My intuition makes me think it would clog up the game more, making it more defensive, but if you've seen evidence that it speeds up the pace of the game that is pretty interesting.