Ozzie_the_parrot Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 13 minutes ago, Trois Reds said: The GTA is Oakville east to Courtice, along Lake Ontario. Nothing else off the lake except Brampton and Richmond Hill.. Kitchener/Waterloo is as GTA as Kelowna is Greater Vancouver Area: an two hour drive away with 1/10th the population. More like just over an 1 hour to K/W from the core of the GTA and around 2 hours to London if traffic is flowing well, but definitely not part of the GTA as you say. The wider K/W area has strong local media in TV, radio and newspaper terms and strongly supports the Kitchener Rangers and Guelph Storm OHL teams in a way somewhere like Brampton doesn't and wouldn't. johnyb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpursFlu Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 hr drive to Toronto and Hamilton. I get the Lower Mainland is far more dense than the GTA but to me it seems more like Abbotsford/Chilliwack Anyways doing a bit of research it seems to be a growing place with a decent airport so makes sense to me if you're looking to add another team in Ontario Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trois Reds Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Obinna said: Did you mean Kamloops? Kelowna is at least 4 hrs away from Vancouver Metro. Kamloops closer to 3 hrs. Point taken that Kitchener is not the GTA, though. But that said, I like the idea of them joining. Small markets like Victoria and Halifax have been successful and I don't think I will be convinced GTA teams can be successful until I see it. I think second and third tier Canadian cities are more likely to be successful, by and large. Vancouver FC does give me hope the model can be replicated in suburban Montreal, but York's struggles don't give me confidence about Toronto. Yes, I meant Kamloops. Thanks, I should know more of my Canadian geography. I agree with you, the smaller markets in Southwest Ontario would probably do a lot better than right in the Toronto area. I Edited January 3 by Trois Reds Obinna 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obinna Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 4 minutes ago, Trois Reds said: Yes, I meant Kamloops. Thanks, I should know more of my Canadian geography. All good. Hope I didn't come off as being too pedantic. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narduch Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Kitchener-Waterloo would be a better market than Windsor Tigers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trois Reds Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 12 minutes ago, Obinna said: All good. Hope I didn't come off as being too pedantic. Cheers! Not at all! Obinna 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpursFlu Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 According to my friend Google KW as of today is 600k without any of that bleeding in to another market. Seems pretty solid to me Obinna and johnyb 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpursFlu Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Obinna said: All good. Hope I didn't come off as being too pedantic. Cheers! I actually remember when I was younger working with an old washed up sales guy claiming back in the day he owned an Iroc and he'd make it to Kelowna to party in 1:20. I kinda believed him and yes his name was Bill Braski Edited January 3 by SpursFlu Obinna, Cheeta and Kent 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurndenAce Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 7 hours ago, SpursFlu said: According to my friend Google KW as of today is 600k without any of that bleeding in to another market. Seems pretty solid to me Just one thing to note about K-W - It's not one city. Kitchener and Waterloo are next to each other, but a good portion of that 600k is coming from Galt/Hespeler/Preston, which is about as far away as Guelph. So it's more like 400k, less like 600k (not sure if that's semantics, but imo a Team in London would be preferable - or better yet, both at the same time.) Tigers 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mihairokov Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) Both Kitchener and London would be slam dunks for CPL, imo. Big, growing markets desperate for professional sports and a local product to latch on to and call their own. Frustrating that they haven't happened already because they seem straightforward from a market standpoint. I understand that ownership would be difficult and stadiums would be iffy but there are areas where Halifax-esque popups could emerge relatively downtown in both (downtown would be in Kitchener, fwiw) which would be suitable enough in the near-term. Neither market is GTA, unless their definition of GTA is the kind that includes Barrie or St. Catharines. Edited January 4 by Mihairokov dyslexic nam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie_the_parrot Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) 9 hours ago, Mihairokov said: ...Neither market is GTA, unless their definition of GTA is the kind that includes Barrie or St. Catharines. That perhaps not concidentally would be a CFL type definition of what franchise exclusivity rights should be. London and Kitchener don't tend to feature in CFL expansion discussions for that reason because the Ticats and Argos have a veto over it. Perhaps not coincidentally in terms of where conditional CanPL franchises have been awarded you would need to locate a team in Windsor in southwestern Ontario terms for this not to be a major issue in a CFL context. Not having a long established CFL franchise because of how the CFL organizes its exclusive territorial rights meant that the requirement for an expandable 8000 to 12000 seat stadium was a near insurmountable obstacle for London and K/W, if they were not going to be allowed (as the Kitchener and London news articles I linked implied) to start with a Halifax style pop-up or Usports stadium and figure it all out later. What comes first the chicken or the egg where a soccer club and its permament stadium solution is concerned? Worth noting that none of Victoria (the ongoing hydro pole and expansion saga), Edmonton (the City of Edmonton had previously pledged to build an SSS if Clarke Stadium consistently sold out for FCE games), Calgary (there was talk of a future 12,000 stadium at launch), York (there was talk of a future 12,000 stadium at launch) and Halifax (a CFL expansion has long been anticipated there) who launched in 2019 with something short of the requirement stated by Paul Beirne in the Kitchener news article I linked have been able to produce an expandable 8000 to 12000 seater yet. There was more than just this one particular strategy in which the launch could have been approached in economic model terms, so questioning whether CanPL adopted the most sensible one should be fair game in this thread without any of the usual hysterics unfolding. If Halifax style popups with no future larger permanent stadium sorted out yet had been OK at launch, something like Windsor-London-K/W-Niagara Region-Hamilton-York-Oshawa-Ottawa-Laval-Quebec City potentially could have been doable in the Windsor-Quebec corridor primarily using bus travel in an OHL sort of way. Something similar could have been looked at in a BC-Alberta context in a WHL sort of way albeit likely with fewer clubs than would be doable in southern Ontario and Quebec, since there are fewer large cities available. At that point a break even crowd of 3000 or so is potentially doable and there would be less danger of racking up a collective $125 million cumulative loss over 5 years of operation, if budgets could be significantly downscaled. Sharing travel costs equitably across the entire league could always be looked at as a way to make life easier financially than it is currently in that regard for a limited number of geographical outliers such as Halifax and Winnipeg to help justify the national league branding. You likely don't wind up with escalating franchise values in any way similar to MLS if you do it that way (7 rather than 2 clubs in SW Ontario and the GTA, for example), but you can more easily and sustainably introduce pro soccer into more communities from coast to coast over the summer months in much the same sort of way that the CHL provides hockey as a major local spectator event in dozens of Canadian communities over the winter months. Edited January 4 by Ozzie_the_parrot longlugan and CDNFootballer 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlugan Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 4 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said: That perhaps not concidentally would be a CFL type definition of what franchise exclusivity rights should be. London and Kitchener don't tend to feature in CFL expansion discussions for that reason because the Ticats and Argos have a veto over it. Perhaps not coincidentally in terms of where conditional CanPL franchises have been awarded you would need to locate a team in Windsor in southwestern Ontario terms for this not to be a major issue in a CFL context. Not having a long established CFL franchise because of how the CFL organizes its exclusive territorial rights meant that the requirement for an expandable 8000 to 12000 seat stadium was a near insurmountable obstacle for London and K/W, if they were not going to be allowed (as the Kitchener and London news articles I linked implied) to start with a Halifax style pop-up or Usports stadium and figure it all out later. What comes first the chicken or the egg where a soccer club and its permament stadium solution is concerned? Worth noting that none of Victoria (the ongoing hydro pole and expansion saga), Edmonton (the City of Edmonton had previously pledged to build an SSS if Clarke Stadium consistently sold out for FCE games), Calgary (there was talk of a future 12,000 stadium at launch), York (there was talk of a future 12,000 stadium at launch) and Halifax (a CFL expansion has long been anticipated there) who launched in 2019 with something short of the requirement stated by Paul Beirne in the Kitchener news article I linked have been able to produce an expandable 8000 to 12000 seater yet. There was more than just this one particular strategy in which the launch could have been approached in economic model terms, so questioning whether CanPL adopted the most sensible one should be fair game in this thread without any of the usual hysterics unfolding. If Halifax style popups with no future larger permanent stadium sorted out yet had been OK at launch, something like Windsor-London-K/W-Niagara Region-Hamilton-York-Oshawa-Ottawa-Laval-Quebec City potentially could have been doable in the Windsor-Quebec corridor primarily using bus travel in an OHL sort of way. Something similar could have been looked at in a BC-Alberta context in a WHL sort of way albeit likely with fewer clubs than would be doable in southern Ontario and Quebec, since there are fewer large cities available. At that point a break even crowd of 3000 or so is potentially doable and there would be less danger of racking up a collective $125 million cumulative loss over 5 years of operation, if budgets could be significantly downscaled. Sharing travel costs equitably across the entire league could always be looked at as a way to make life easier financially than it is currently in that regard for a limited number of geographical outliers such as Halifax and Winnipeg to help justify the national league branding. You likely don't wind up with escalating franchise values in any way similar to MLS if you do it that way (7 rather than 2 clubs in SW Ontario and the GTA, for example), but you can more easily and sustainably introduce pro soccer into more communities from coast to coast over the summer months in much the same sort of way that the CHL provides hockey as a major local spectator event in dozens of Canadian communities over the winter months. Well...I see 2024 is starting off the same way. CDNFootballer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingston Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 12 hours ago, BurndenAce said: Just one thing to note about K-W - It's not one city. Kitchener and Waterloo are next to each other, but a good portion of that 600k is coming from Galt/Hespeler/Preston, which is about as far away as Guelph. So it's more like 400k, less like 600k (not sure if that's semantics, but imo a Team in London would be preferable - or better yet, both at the same time.) You raise a good point about Cambridge but I think if the stadium was placed somewhere on the LRT, which will soon extend into Cambridge, the team would capture a lot of that portion of the area, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigers Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 (edited) Cambridge is way more integrated than Guelph even if parts of it are as far away from the university campuses as Guelph is. If a popup happened somewhere in Kitchener then Cambridge could easily be closer than even Waterloo. It's called the tri-cities for a reason. Edited January 4 by Tigers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Feels like a while since we had an endlessly long post detailing demographics of Canadian urban areas then correlating with future CPL team locations. Love those. BurndenAce, fil, NVsoccer and 5 others 2 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fil Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 What is much more important is a strong ownership group (preferably local), a good stadium plan in a good central location. Much smaller communities can work well if these things are done right in the CPL. Unfortunately while their are wealthy people that enjoy soccer they would prefer to invest in Europe. Canadian soccer doesn't have the status or prestige necessary to draw these local investors. Just expanding to a area with a good population base could just create another York situation. Population doesn't just create a fanbase, especially when you are in driving distance of another large city. Unnamed Trialist, narduch and red card 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fil Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said: Feels like a while since we had an endlessly long post detailing demographics of Canadian urban areas then correlating with future CPL team locations. Love those. Kent, MtlMario, Cheeta and 4 others 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpursFlu Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 Have we kicked off an epic is Kitchener Waterloo the same place discussion? Would someone drive from Guelph to watch soccer in Kitchener? Sounds exciting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingston Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, SpursFlu said: Have we kicked off an epic is Kitchener Waterloo the same place discussion? Would someone drive from Guelph to watch soccer in Kitchener? Sounds exciting I know you're joking but many years ago I commuted from Guelph to Waterloo every day. I'd definitely make that drive for a CPL game if I still lived in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpursFlu Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 8 minutes ago, Kingston said: I know you're joking but many years ago I commuted from Guelph to Waterloo every day. I'd definitely make that drive for a CPL game if I still lived in the area. I dont know much about it but there seems to be a synergy between all those places. No mountains between them, bridges, tunnels, oceans. Just straight wide roads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 On 1/4/2024 at 3:51 AM, Ozzie_the_parrot said: You likely don't wind up with escalating franchise values in any way similar to MLS if you do it that way (7 rather than 2 clubs in SW Ontario and the GTA, for example), but you can more easily and sustainably introduce pro soccer into more communities from coast to coast over the summer months in much the same sort of way that the CHL provides hockey as a major local spectator event in dozens of Canadian communities over the winter months. The CHL is not a pro league. Their economic model only works because they aren't. CDNFootballer and narduch 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 6 hours ago, SpursFlu said: I dont know much about it but there seems to be a synergy between all those places. No mountains between them, bridges, tunnels, oceans. Just straight wide roads I've never actually lived in KW or Guelph, but close by and know lots of people from both (or all 3 or 4). My feeling is that there typically isn't a lot of reason to go to Guelph if you live in KW, or vice versa, but given a reason (like a CPL team or even a concert at a small club for a band you want to check out) it's an easy drive to go from one to the other. As @Kingston mentioned, commuting for work or University wouldn't be a big deal. When I was 18 I played on a KW soccer team that included a couple guys from Guelph and at least one guy from Cambridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie_the_parrot Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 16 hours ago, Colonel Green said: The CHL is not a pro league. Their economic model only works because they aren't. The reality is that junior hockey players actually do get paid and this negatively affects their NCAA eligibility because it is viewed as a pro league in that context unlike PDL or L1O where soccer is concerned: https://thehockeynews.com/news/want-to-play-ncaa-hockey-make-sure-you-know-the-eligibility-rules The finances of the CHL work better those of CanPL because they don't do any regular season air travel and avoid paying for hotel rooms by having buses on which the players and coaches can sleep during road trips. The numbers quoted for what their average player salary effectively winds up being when all sources of revenue are totalled are in the same sort of range as what CanPL players receive: https://icehockeycentral.com/discover-the-average-ohl-salary-how-much-do-players-really-make/ ....While the three leagues are similar in many ways, there are some differences in terms of player salaries. According to a report from Forbes, the average salary for a player in the OHL is around $50,000, while players in the WHL and QMJHL make around $35,000 and $30,000, respectively.. https://www.silverskatefestival.org/ohl-players-paid-stipend-in-addition-to-winnings-salary/ ...Players in the Ontario Hockey League are paid a weekly stipend of $50-$100. This is in addition to any money they may make from their team’s winnings, sponsorship deals, or personal endorsements. The amount of money a player is paid varies depending on their experience and skill level. The average salary for an OHL player is between $35,000 and $60,000 a year... The London Knights often draw around 9000 in paid attendance to their games, which is comparable to League One teams in England despite it being a U20 youth development team that is involved. https://hockey.sigmagfx.com/team/london-knights If a large regional urban centre like London, Ont with > 500,000 people to draw from in the immediate vicinity is left without a CFL team because of how that league structures its territorial rights and there is no minor league baseball worth mentioning there is a definite niche to be filled in sports entertainment terms from late spring to fall that a few Western Mustangs Usports gridiron games doesn't even come close to filling. Edited January 6 by Ozzie_the_parrot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadBorto Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 6 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said: The reality is that junior hockey players actually do get paid and this negatively affects their NCAA eligibility because it is viewed as a pro league in that context unlike PDL or L1O where soccer is concerned: https://thehockeynews.com/news/want-to-play-ncaa-hockey-make-sure-you-know-the-eligibility-rules The finances of the CHL work better those of CanPL because they don't do any regular season air travel and avoid paying for hotel rooms by having buses on which the players and coaches can sleep during road trips. The numbers quoted for what their average player salary effectively winds up being when all sources of revenue are totalled are in the same sort of range as what CanPL players receive: https://icehockeycentral.com/discover-the-average-ohl-salary-how-much-do-players-really-make/ ....While the three leagues are similar in many ways, there are some differences in terms of player salaries. According to a report from Forbes, the average salary for a player in the OHL is around $50,000, while players in the WHL and QMJHL make around $35,000 and $30,000, respectively.. https://www.silverskatefestival.org/ohl-players-paid-stipend-in-addition-to-winnings-salary/ ...Players in the Ontario Hockey League are paid a weekly stipend of $50-$100. This is in addition to any money they may make from their team’s winnings, sponsorship deals, or personal endorsements. The amount of money a player is paid varies depending on their experience and skill level. The average salary for an OHL player is between $35,000 and $60,000 a year... The London Knights often draw around 9000 in paid attendance to their games, which is comparable to League One teams in England despite it being a U20 youth development team that is involved. https://hockey.sigmagfx.com/team/london-knights If a large regional urban centre like London, Ont with > 500,000 people to draw from in the immediate vicinity is left without a CFL team because of how that league structures its territorial rights and there is no minor league baseball worth mentioning there is a definite niche to be filled in sports entertainment terms from late spring to fall that a few Western Mustangs Usports gridiron games doesn't even come close to filling. The CHL is not a pro league, regardless of what NCAA says. The players stay as billets with local families and have their "room and board" and all hockey costs paid for. They do receive a small weekly stipend. The "icehockeycentral" source may not be reliable (first hint is referring to "ice hockey".). The same article says player maximum stipends have moved up to $300 per week - how does that add up to $50k-$100k per year for players? That being said, there is a lawsuit in play where former players are looking to be paid mimimum wage for their work.. Either way, it would not nearly add up to CPL salaries (which I have heard may be in the $40-$80k/year range) Your point about financial model being better in CHL is valid though.. particularly much lower travel costs - with teams being much closer together and much of the travel done by bus. They do stay in hotels though. ( My sons hockey team was in Moncton for a tournament and the Halifax Mooseheads were staying at same hotel which was pretty cool for the kids..) I also agree London would be a great city for CPL. London plus either Windsor or Kitchener in Southern Ontario would be great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unnamed Trialist Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 17 hours ago, SpursFlu said: I dont know much about it but there seems to be a synergy between all those places. No mountains between them, bridges, tunnels, oceans. Just straight wide roads Bridges, tunnels, oceans? No reason to provoke the Ontario fanbase. For example, they have culture over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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