Atiba Hutchinson

[harrycoyster]

30 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Fair enough.  I don't know many of the details.

 

Generally speaking:

French/German model- Academies have 17-18 players in each age group, top academies regularly scout over-preforming players from lesser academies to improve their team. Good at centralizing talent and stopping talent from falling through the cracks. Bad at developing a large number of players.

South American/Mexican/FC Dallas model- Academies have numerous teams at every age group up, players are usually in the academy from 11 to 18. Good at developing a large number of players, building a competitive atmosphere. Bad at polishing players tactically, always narrowing pyramid doesn't leave room for outside players to join.

Spanish/English/Italian model- Model not necessary. The youth system is so developed kids are known quantities by the age of 12. Best team sign best kids, replace talents as they burn out.

6 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

If you are saying it works for the US but not for Canada then I agree!

No matter how you look at it, the numbers don't add up. It is an American League producing American players. Sure, one would expect it to produce more American players but one would also expect at least a few Canadians to have come through by now. CPL will be the Canadian league producing Canadian talent that we have been crying out for.

What I'm saying is that the issue isn't pro-American bias in youth development by MLS. It's that fact that we have 2.5 good pro academies and they have 18. The CPL will eventually address that.

Edited June 20, 2017 by harrycoyster

[BuzzAndSting]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Looks deceive, don't they. Really some of you guys are illiterate, sorry to say. Drogba is not "playing" for Phoenix: read, read again, understand, and you'll understand why  I'm right.

Haha, you always have to result to insults eh?

I get your point but obviously at some point in the process the team decided it would actually be good for him to play, otherwise he would have just been brought on as a partners/executive/advisor.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Looks deceive, don't they. Really some of you guys are illiterate, sorry to say. Drogba is not "playing" for Phoenix: read, read again, understand, and you'll understand why  I'm right.

I feel like you don't remember how this back and forth has gone. I said if JDG can play for Ottawa then I don't think we can disregard the idea that Hutch could someday play in the CPL. You essentially laughed that off and reiterated something to the effect that it is insulting to suggest Hutch could ever lower himself to the point of playing in CPL. I said with that kind of attitude I bet 5 years ago you wouldn't have thought it was possible for Drogba to ever play in USL. Well, Drogba has now played for Phoenix, regardless of the deal he has and you can't change that. JDG playing in Ottawa happened, possibly because he thought he could get a coaching gig after his playing time, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened. Drogba played for Phoenix, possibly to be part of the ownership group (I don't remember the details, or care). That doesn't change the fact that it happened. Hutch to CPL could happen. When he is 38, 40, whatever, it could happen. There could be other conditions to the deal to sweeten it for him. Maybe he wants to stay local to extend his CMNT career, maybe he wants to support the CPL, maybe he wants to parlay it into a commentary job, we don't know and neither do you.

[pasquatch]

Caps FO-- generally tight with the pocketbook-- declined pursuing Hutchinson earlier this spring after Garber announced to the Caps fanbase that the league would make a Dempsey-esque arrangement for "the right Canadian player" with a wink-wink nudge-nudge. It was reported by our beat guy Weber that things didn't get off the ground due to the Caps FO expecting a full to near-full subsidy on transfer fees.

Fast-forward to today-- the club (and thus MLS) have two "dirty" player-scandals on their hands with a precedence set on zero tolerance for misbehaviour (see: Blasco with weed; Nguyen with shitty tweets; still waiting for the story on Reo-Coker). They need a big fucking diversion right now because it's not even looking like they'll be able to win enough to spin their way out of this.

Enter our hero: the man of integrity; the gentleman and patriot; Captain fucking Canada. The feel-good content and narration a marketing team could generate out of Atiba x Alphonso is a fucking "Canadian Heritage Moment" in real time. Happy 150 and all that, put a feather in your Cap.

If it's actually only money that's been the issue, this is a no-brainer. And another way of looking at it: it's an indirect investment they'd be making in Davies, too. Name a better potential mentor for the kid? He's blasting the fuck off right now and we've seen (read: Larin) that small mistakes in these young men's lives can have big consequences.

[Kent]

As for Hutch to Vancouver, in my opinion he is better than Bradley today (and I do like Bradley) and Bradley is making plenty of money each season. I think Hutch has aged very well so far and I think he will continue to age well. It's not like he has ever been about using his speed to get up and down the wings or in behind the defence.

[harrycoyster]

10 minutes ago, Kent said:

As for Hutch to Vancouver, in my opinion he is better than Bradley today (and I do like Bradley) and Bradley is making plenty of money each season. I think Hutch has aged very well so far and I think he will continue to age well. It's not like he has ever been about using his speed to get up and down the wings or in behind the defence.

Comparing Hutch to Bradley is pointless, and not one that I think particular favors Hutch. Sure, Hutch has held up to this point, but what are the chances he maintains his level of play for 2 more seasons? How many 36 year old CDMs are out there killing it right now? Gareth Barry, maybe, and he's basically a third CB. The difference between a player's 33-34 aged season and 36-37 aged season is huge.

I'd be more on board if we needed a defensive midfield, but CB and CDM are probably the strongest positions on the roster. It's not like we are a contender this year anyways, why not wait a season and sign him on a free? None of this really adds up for me.

[Cheeta]

I'm in a bit of a "Wow, what the f'uck?" state of mind.

1).  I deserve a Gold Star for avoiding a rant.

2).  Don't watch MLS so I don't know if Hutch is a fit for Vancouver or not but from the little I have watched the last couple o' years I don't know how a player like Hutch wouldn't be an absolute God Send to a great many MLS clubs.  $10M for 3 years (no matter how you break it down) for a player who's going to make every other player on your team better, that is if they have the wits and quality for it, is a bargain in the footie world.  But, obviously, MLS has its own dynamics.  What he would bring might be a luxury.  Wrong player in the wrong league at the wrong time. 

3).  The Whitecaps pursuing Hutch?  Why again exactly?  Either they rate him with the same enthusiasm I do (doubtful, don't think enough of Robson to give him that much credit) or they're concerning themselves with CanCon, which would feel weird and ask the question, why now?

4).  Love how unsubstantiated off-season rumours let us get our gears turning. 

Yeah, what the Hell? 

  

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Kent said:

I feel like you don't remember how this back and forth has gone. I said if JDG can play for Ottawa then I don't think we can disregard the idea that Hutch could someday play in the CPL. You essentially laughed that off and reiterated something to the effect that it is insulting to suggest Hutch could ever lower himself to the point of playing in CPL. I said with that kind of attitude I bet 5 years ago you wouldn't have thought it was possible for Drogba to ever play in USL. Well, Drogba has now played for Phoenix, regardless of the deal he has and you can't change that. JDG playing in Ottawa happened, possibly because he thought he could get a coaching gig after his playing time, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened. Drogba played for Phoenix, possibly to be part of the ownership group (I don't remember the details, or care). That doesn't change the fact that it happened. Hutch to CPL could happen. When he is 38, 40, whatever, it could happen. There could be other conditions to the deal to sweeten it for him. Maybe he wants to stay local to extend his CMNT career, maybe he wants to support the CPL, maybe he wants to parlay it into a commentary job, we don't know and neither do you.

You think there is any comparison at all to Drogba trying to get in as a minority owner on a club willing to pay 100 million US to join MLS, and the pipe dream of Hutchinson playing for Halifax or Winnipeg to play in a CPL?

That is totally delusive and shows how little thinking is going on here. USL Phoenix is bidding for an MLS franchise. For CPL we are basically begging them to join in. One has serious investment value, potentially, the other does not, at all.

Edit: sorry, had to leave where I was, now can write without rushing. 

When I said Drogba does not play for Phoenix it was meant to explain why he is, in fact, "playing" for Phoenix. I am not denying he laces his boots, and goes onto the field, and makes plays. But if you look at that and see it as "Drogba playing in USL", you are simply not understanding what is happening. Simple as that. 

I do not know the exact terms of the deal. I understand Didier is part of their investment team, probably because they offered him to join them. Either they pay him to be their brand rep (NOT to play), or he has some deal whereby he'll pay into their ownership group, though I think they are paying him and part of his pay is minority shares (not sure, just thinking it through). IN any case, it is one of many things world-class stars do after retirement, because they have to put together a portfolio of investments, stay afloat, write-off taxes, and, if they can, keep their feet in the game they love. 

If you want to be excited about the CPL, then fine. There is no comparison whatsoever to be made, however. Hutch is nothing compared to Drogba, even in Canada. Arguably, Stalteri had a more distinguished club career and he walks down the street anonymous, and besides is part of our CSA set-up and no-one gives a rats ass, even here. As would happen with Hutch the day he does do similar, we'd ignore him.

The simple fact that Rob Friend is backing a possible CPL bid in the Fraser Valley should given any thinking guy or gal enough to understand what the difference is. Or else take the huge financial layout they are willing to make in a city in Arizona, upwards of 150 million dollars US, and ask youself what percentage of that amount will the entire CPL run on.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

Hutch would be a better fit in Montreal. For starters, I don't imagine he'd be keen on the turf at BC Place, given his history of knee trouble. Secondly, Montreal is far closer to home than Vancouver is. Thirdly, Bernier is probably done this season, so there is a gap that'll have to be filled. 

That being said, my preference is that he stays in Turkey with Besiktas. He has another opportunity to play Champions League football. For a Canadian player, that opportunity doesn't come around every day.

I would rather him go to TFC at 36 for TAM money or less, than go to Vancouver as a DP (nothing against Vancouver). He'd get to finish his career in his hometown and he'd provide good cover for Bradley or even make for a good CDM partner. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

22 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Hutch would be a better fit in Montreal. For starters, I don't imagine he'd be keen on the turf at BC Place, given his history of knee trouble. Secondly, Montreal is far closer to home than Vancouver is. Thirdly, Bernier is probably done this season, so there is a gap that'll have to be filled. 

That being said, my preference is that he stays in Turkey with Besiktas. He has another opportunity to play Champions League football. For a Canadian player, that opportunity doesn't come around every day.

I would rather him go to TFC at 36 for TAM money or less, than go to Vancouver as a DP (nothing against Vancouver). He'd get to finish his career in his hometown and he'd provide good cover for Bradley or even make for a good CDM partner. 

I agree, Obinna, but I think the Caps have found a league willing to lay out for them, and a league keen to make minor gestures towards Canadiana to stave off the criticism--or at least this is what the rumours suggest. I really do not know.

I personally agree he should stay at Besiktas this year, good move, great career ending, if he does want to end it. Unless he really has a dream of playing somewhere still after that. 

[Kent]

11 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Comparing Hutch to Bradley is pointless, and not one that I think particular favors Hutch. Sure, Hutch has held up to this point, but what are the chances he maintains his level of play for 2 more seasons? How many 36 year old CDMs are out there killing it right now? Gareth Barry, maybe, and he's basically a third CB. The difference between a player's 33-34 aged season and 36-37 aged season is huge.

I brought Bradley into the conversation because of a comment from Grizzly. I should have quoted him but I read a lot of comments after and was too lazy to go back and find it. His comment.

"Yes but if they pay him say 1 million per year for 2.5 seasons that is a total of 7.5 million which as much as I love Atiba is a lot of money for a player of his age, calibre, club history and name recognition. That is 3 million a year which I would argue is overpaying for him even now and who knows what his playing level will be when he is 36."

With the numbers he is suggesting I was just trying to point out that the total cost isn't much more than the 6 million Bradley makes in salary this year alone. In my opinion Hutchinson is better today than Bradley is (I wouldn't be surprised if others don't hold that opinion), so you could argue his worth this year would be 6 million. Maybe next year he isn't as good, but he could very well still be DP value. Depending on the length of the contract and how quickly his play drops off you might end up with 2 good value years and 1 bad value year. Maybe it's 1 good value and 2 bad value. We won't know unless he comes over of course.

As to whether he fills a specific need for Vancouver, that I don't know and I will defer to Vancouver fans like yourself to debate.

[Yoginess]

Midfield is not a position of need for the Whitecaps.

Hutchinson is significantly better than all of our central midfielders (save maybe Laba).

Not much to debate, that's the situation.

[harrycoyster]

17 hours ago, Cheeta said:

Don't watch MLS so I don't know if Hutch is a fit for Vancouver or not but from the little I have watched the last couple o' years I don't know how a player like Hutch wouldn't be an absolute God Send to a great many MLS clubs.  $10M for 3 years (no matter how you break it down) for a player who's going to make every other player on your team better, that is if they have the wits and quality for it, is a bargain in the footie world.  But, obviously, MLS has its own dynamics.  What he would bring might be a luxury.  Wrong player in the wrong league at the wrong time.

Exactly. You can get a good CDM for pretty cheap is MLS. It's very hard to find attacking talent. When you only have 3 DP slots, and a limited amount of money your ownership is willing to spend on DPs, bringing in a CDM is a luxury. Hutch would be a decent improvement over Tchani and Laba in central. Getting a $3 million a year second striker or right winger would be a gigantic improvement.

Also, consider the ownership is publicly low on funds, I'd rather them go the Atlanta route and bring in a player who is also an investment. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Hutch vs Bradley. ...mmmmm

Just thinking. ..would Hutch be a starter for the US? Pretty close. Any other Canadians? Well Cyle would get a call. ..and Junior, Arfield. That's it. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Unnamed Trialist

[Obinna]

3 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Hutch vs Bradley. ...mmmmm

Just thinking. ..would Hutch be a starter for the US? Pretty close. Any other Canadians? Well Cyle would get a call. ..and Junior, Ariel. That's it. 

Yeah I think it is very difficult to say Bradley is better than Hutchinson, or vice versa. 

Both are very good players, but have very different styles despite playing in similar roles. 

I will say though that Bradley is absolutely essential to the USA and I don't think you can replace what he brings. 

Hutchinson I think is a slightly (very slightly, actually) better footballer, but I don't think he'd be irreplaceable for the USA in the way Bradley is. In that sense I would say that Bradley is actually more valuable in this hypothetical thought experiment. 

What I admire about Bradley are the intangibles he brings. His will to win is incredible. They call him the general for a reason. I don't think Hutchinson has quite the same temperament, but like I said, I think he arguably has more ability than Bradley does, if we are talking about pure talent in isolation from the intangibles.

As for other Canadians, I think Larin would obviously be in their pool. I don't think he'd be an outright starter every game, but I think the USA would be very comfortable with him starting in GC and WCQ matches. Think Jordan Morris, except the fans would gush over him even more!

Arfield and Hoilett would definitely get caps. I don't think either would be an automatic starter, but they'd be regular selections. Arfield would probably get used more than Hoilett, as he is far more consistent. I think Arfield would get "Bedoya" type minutes, while Hoilett would be in direct competition with Darlington Nagbe. Both would be behind Fabian Johnson when he's available and used in midfield though. 

This may surprise people, but I think Johnson would have caps for the US if he held out for them. He's a long standing MLSer who's been a starter virtually his entire time in the league and has won championships, played in All-Star games, etc. 

I don't think anyone on our backline would have US caps. Edgar perhaps may have collected the odd cap or two whilst playing in the English Championship. 

 

[BrennanFan]

http://theprovince.com/sports/soccer/mls/vancouver-whitecaps/whitecaps-have-discussed-atiba-hutchinson-carl-robinson

[BrennanFan]

With Hutchinson and Yordy Reyna (who is a beast striker and will absolutely kill it in MLS as soon as he's healthy) the Caps will be legitimate contenders.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

This may surprise people, but I think Johnson would have caps for the US if he held out for them. He's a long standing MLSer who's been a starter virtually his entire time in the league and has won championships, played in All-Star games, etc. 

Well I am with you on this too, but was thinking, maybe I am judging Johnson on his last game for us. The games he is on, like with Orlando, he is essential, but I can't remember watching Orlando lose this season, so I have not seen a bad game from him. 

So I think Will would be in the US pool, and probably called in, but would depend a lot on his consistency in MLS games to get more or less minutes. 

[harrycoyster]

42 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Well I am with you on this too, but was thinking, maybe I am judging Johnson on his last game for us. The games he is on, like with Orlando, he is essential, but I can't remember watching Orlando lose this season, so I have not seen a bad game from him. 

So I think Will would be in the US pool, and probably called in, but would depend a lot on his consistency in MLS games to get more or less minutes. 

Considering Dax McCarty, Christian Roldan, Benny Feilhaber and Danny Williams can't get on the field for the US first team, I doubt Johnson would have a chance. I think he'd be capped, but wouldn't be close to seeing minutes.

 

2 hours ago, Obinna said:

Yeah I think it is very difficult to say Bradley is better than Hutchinson, or vice versa. 

Both are very good players, but have very different styles despite playing in similar roles. 

I will say though that Bradley is absolutely essential to the USA and I don't think you can replace what he brings. 

Hutchinson I think is a slightly (very slightly, actually) better footballer, but I don't think he'd be irreplaceable for the USA in the way Bradley is. In that sense I would say that Bradley is actually more valuable in this hypothetical thought experiment. 

What I admire about Bradley are the intangibles he brings. His will to win is incredible. They call him the general for a reason. I don't think Hutchinson has quite the same temperament, but like I said, I think he arguably has more ability than Bradley does, if we are talking about pure talent in isolation from the intangibles.

As for other Canadians, I think Larin would obviously be in their pool. I don't think he'd be an outright starter every game, but I think the USA would be very comfortable with him starting in GC and WCQ matches. Think Jordan Morris, except the fans would gush over him even more!

Arfield and Hoilett would definitely get caps. I don't think either would be an automatic starter, but they'd be regular selections. Arfield would probably get used more than Hoilett, as he is far more consistent. I think Arfield would get "Bedoya" type minutes, while Hoilett would be in direct competition with Darlington Nagbe. Both would be behind Fabian Johnson when he's available and used in midfield though. 

This may surprise people, but I think Johnson would have caps for the US if he held out for them. He's a long standing MLSer who's been a starter virtually his entire time in the league and has won championships, played in All-Star games, etc. 

I don't think anyone on our backline would have US caps. Edgar perhaps may have collected the odd cap or two whilst playing in the English Championship. 

 

Hutch and Larin would be in the US pool. Don't think Arfeild or Hoilett would be near their 18 right now to be honest. Arfeild might have had an outside chance before Acosta's recent rise. Edgar would never have been a blimp on the US radar, the US has only recently just started calling Tim Ream back into camps and he was named Fulham's player of the season last year. Danny Williams, Eric Lichaj, Gboly Ariyibi and Jon Spector are all Championship regulars and have a combined 0 caps in the last year. The US doesn't rate Championship players outside of Yedlin, who was the starting RB on the best team in the Championship last season.

[jpg75]

Hoilett was a solid EPL player early in his career so he would have gotten a USA call then, hypothetically speaking.

[harrycoyster]

12 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

Hoilett was a solid EPL player early in his career so he would have gotten a USA call then, hypothetically speaking.

Probably. But right now? He'd be behind Johnson, Nagbe, and Saief at LM, and that's assuming Wood and Pulisic aren't played out of position (they've both played LW for the US this WCQ cycle).

The US striker depth card would probably be: Altidore, Wood, Dempsey, Larin, Sapong.

Defensive midfield would probably be: Bradley, Hutch, Acosta, Williams, McCarty.

 

That is likely the extent of Canadians fitting into the US program (until Davies unseats Pulisic as the best attacking midfielder from North America).

Edited June 21, 2017 by harrycoyster

[jpg75]

4 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

Probably. But right now? He'd be behind Johnson, Nagbe, and Saief at LM,

I don't think that was his point. He said "Hoilett and Arfield would have gotten caps".

edit: nvm, i misread his post. I agree, right not sure Hoilett breaks into the US lineup.

Edited June 21, 2017 by jpg75

[harrycoyster]

1 minute ago, jpg75 said:

I don't think that was his point. He said "Hoilett and Arfield would have gotten caps".

He said "Arfield and Hoilett would definitely get caps." I assumed that meant in the present, as I don't really see the relevance in wondering if Hoilett would have gotten a US call up in 2013, but you may be correct.

[nolando]

Two things not being discussed as far as I can see, but as a father of young ones I have to think at least one of these two images has something to do with a possible move to Canada, if indeed it pans out:

 

 

[masster]

On 6/19/2017 at 8:27 PM, pasquatch said:

Caps FO-- generally tight with the pocketbook-- declined pursuing Hutchinson earlier this spring after Garber announced to the Caps fanbase that the league would make a Dempsey-esque arrangement for "the right Canadian player" with a wink-wink nudge-nudge. It was reported by our beat guy Weber that things didn't get off the ground due to the Caps FO expecting a full to near-full subsidy on transfer fees.

Fast-forward to today-- the club (and thus MLS) have two "dirty" player-scandals on their hands with a precedence set on zero tolerance for misbehaviour (see: Blasco with weed; Nguyen with shitty tweets; still waiting for the story on Reo-Coker). They need a big fucking diversion right now because it's not even looking like they'll be able to win enough to spin their way out of this.
 

Hutchinson was never going to leave in February or March with Besiktas in the middle of the title race and still alive in Europa League.

Also, Blasco was not released because of weed.