Scott Arfield

[SoccMan]

10 hours ago, costarg said:

Honestly, If we're looking at the past 8-10 months, Yes, I'm taking Arfield over Osorio.  As much as I love the guy, he is nowhere near the Osorio we're known and loved in the past.  Hopefully he turns that around quick.

All take the Canadian guy over Arfield sorry . 😉

[RS]

10 hours ago, costarg said:

Honestly, If we're looking at the past 8-10 months, Yes, I'm taking Arfield over Osorio.  As much as I love the guy, he is nowhere near the Osorio we're known and loved in the past.  Hopefully he turns that around quick.

You keep saying this, but the stats disagree with you.

Osorio’s biggest problem over the past 8-10 months has been injuries. When he plays consistent minutes he’s still a big contributor on the field.

 

[costarg]

1 hour ago, RS said:

You keep saying this, but the stats disagree with you.

Osorio’s biggest problem over the past 8-10 months has been injuries. When he plays consistent minutes he’s still a big contributor on the field.

 

Stats schmats!  The videos showing he stops running and lets his man run by him twice for a goal says otherwise.  He had a terrible GC.  The few TFC games i saw were not much better, but maybe that's justifiable due to the smoke from the tire fire.  I'm not saying this to be an ass, or to defend Arfield.  Pretty sure y'all know I'm a huge fan, just calling it like it is.  He has not been playing well the past months, nothing near what we're used to seeing from him. Can't wait for him to turn it around and prove me wrong.

[Bison44]

Well he is on 2g and 6a now, say he finishes the year with 3g, 7a in 1700min.  Thats not his best year, but its a good year offensively and its dealing with injuries too.  Putting aside a few defensive lapses, he still works his tail off.  Now does he deserve DP money?? Eeeeeeee I dont know.  Besides Osorio wouldnt be the guy you would drop to make room for a heretofore un named extra mid.  

[Cheeta]

4 hours ago, RS said:

You keep saying this, but the stats disagree with you.

Osorio’s biggest problem over the past 8-10 months has been injuries. When he plays consistent minutes he’s still a big contributor on the field.

 

And there it is.  Osorio could be carrying some sort of a knock for the rest of what remains of his playing career.  That's not something anyone wishes but that might be the reality going forward. 

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting Arfield will have anything to do, or not do, with the MNT.  I'm just suggesting JO's time with the NT shouldn't be taken as a given.

[costarg]

11 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Well he is on 2g and 6a now, say he finishes the year with 3g, 7a in 1700min.  Thats not his best year, but its a good year offensively and its dealing with injuries too.  Putting aside a few defensive lapses, he still works his tail off.  Now does he deserve DP money?? Eeeeeeee I dont know.  Besides Osorio wouldnt be the guy you would drop to make room for a heretofore un named extra mid.  

Agreed.  Normal healthy Osorio is 100% on my team.  An 80% Osorio probably still travels with the team, however when you start getting to 75% Osorio who stops tracking back while you have a Choiniere who plays similar style with 3x more lungs and legs and a hot Arfield (if we wanna go the stats route).  And then you start adding guys like Ahmed and it gets difficult to defend bringing an unhealthy Osorio.   

Arfield has 12 goals in 12 months now, also from the midfield, without the numerous defensive lapses.  Those are goals across different competitive leagues and teams, including Champions League.

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, costarg said:

Agreed.  Normal healthy Osorio is 100% on my team.  An 80% Osorio probably still travels with the team, however when you start getting to 75% Osorio who stops tracking back while you have a Choiniere who plays similar style with 3x more lungs and legs and a hot Arfield (if we wanna go the stats route).  And then you start adding guys like Ahmed and it gets difficult to defend bringing an unhealthy Osorio.   

Arfield has 12 goals in 12 months now, also from the midfield, without the numerous defensive lapses.  Those are goals across different competitive leagues and teams, including Champions League.

Arfield has defensive lapses and its foolish to suggest otherwise. He just has them further forward and hes been playing 20 minutes at the end of the game. So his lapses dont end up in goals. 

I 100% agree though that Oso spot isnt guaranteed but I do think his style is basically unmatched. Hoillett is close but isnt really a Cam. Choiniere and ahmed are more #8 and run alot but arent super creative. Ahmed makes things happen like laryea but oso uses his iq to create space, find pockets and play penetrating passes. How well he is currently doing those things is up for debate but theres not many other players who match his style on CMNT. 

[red card]

Arfield profile in the Athletic had 2 bits about playing for Canada. Looks like a mutual decision was made.

“The only time I spoke to Gordon Strachan (then-Scotland manager) was when the Canada FA put the change of allegiance into the Scottish FA,” says Arfield. “We had a conversation and I said it was definitely what I wanted to do. What happened after that was amazing. You see a different side of the world and it helped get me out here.”

“I wouldn’t be human if I watched the World Cup and thought, ‘I had a chance to be there’, but I don’t have one single regret. Retirement was an easy decision. I spoke to the manager numerous times and he wanted to bring through the younger players. I wanted to win the league again with Rangers.”

https://theathletic.com/4799112/2023/09/07/scott-arfield-mls-messi-rangers/

[GasPed]

1 hour ago, red card said:

Arfield profile in the Athletic had 2 bits about playing for Canada. Looks like a mutual decision was made.

“The only time I spoke to Gordon Strachan (then-Scotland manager) was when the Canada FA put the change of allegiance into the Scottish FA,” says Arfield. “We had a conversation and I said it was definitely what I wanted to do. What happened after that was amazing. You see a different side of the world and it helped get me out here.”

“I wouldn’t be human if I watched the World Cup and thought, ‘I had a chance to be there’, but I don’t have one single regret. Retirement was an easy decision. I spoke to the manager numerous times and he wanted to bring through the younger players. I wanted to win the league again with Rangers.”

https://theathletic.com/4799112/2023/09/07/scott-arfield-mls-messi-rangers/

That is a great article, and honestly, every article I've read about Scotty has been the same - he's funny, articulate, sincere and comes across as a standup, team guy.  Now I don't know if he's really like that in the locker room, or if he had a falling out with Herdman, or if there was some other personal issue in play, but after reading things like this, I too wonder "what if".  We really could've used someone like him on the pitch, that's for sure.

[VinceA]

56 minutes ago, GasPed said:

That is a great article, and honestly, every article I've read about Scotty has been the same - he's funny, articulate, sincere and comes across as a standup, team guy.  Now I don't know if he's really like that in the locker room, or if he had a falling out with Herdman, or if there was some other personal issue in play, but after reading things like this, I too wonder "what if".  We really could've used someone like him on the pitch, that's for sure.

If the story is true that Herdman's first camp involved a fight between Arfield and Edwards during training I could understand that colouring Herdman's view of Arfield into a negative one going forward that would eventually end with him telling Arfield he was not wanted when he started declining WCQ calls.

Edited September 8, 2023 by VinceA

[GasPed]

29 minutes ago, VinceA said:

If the story is true that Herdman's first camp involved a fight between Arfield and Edwards during training I could understand that colouring Herdman's view of Arfield into a negative one going forward that would eventually end with him telling Arfield he was not wanted when he started declining WCQ calls.

Oh, were they the infamous "We had fistfights when I first got here" participants?  I did not know that - and yes, I can see Herdman taking a dim view of that...

[trc2014]

10 hours ago, VinceA said:

If the story is true that Herdman's first camp involved a fight between Arfield and Edwards during training I could understand that colouring Herdman's view of Arfield into a negative one going forward that would eventually end with him telling Arfield he was not wanted when he started declining WCQ calls.

First I’m hearing of the participants in that fight.

[Unnamed Trialist]

For me little bust-ups in training aren't such a big deal. Players are competing and it can happen. You don't want them injuring each other but what's the point of not tackling in a training session? The attackers look great and the defenders like a bunch of dupes.

Anyone who thinks a brotherhood is premised on never arguing with a teammate has never had a brother.

I think Herdman was right to ask players to go all in, and not accept any questioning of his squad decisions. We never heard dissent while qualifying and even players who never saw a minute in Qatar (Piette most unfairly) never said a thing, and haven't since. That says a lot, a great accomplishment. Even now with the change there are no cheap potshots being taken. I'm proud of the group for that.

But signalling a Scot for training hard and getting into a "fight"? That's like complaining about dogs who lift their legs to pee.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

Perhaps worth noting that Herdman hasn't appeared to be that keen on calling up Raheem Edwards either. Maybe I have an old school mentality on this but should a fight in training really be that big a deal?

[VinceA]

23 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Perhaps worth noting that Herdman hasn't appeared to be that keen on calling up Raheem Edwards either. Maybe I have an old school mentality on this but should a fight in training really be that big a deal?

In fairness Edwards only got his act together as a pro in the last couple of years and by that point Adekugbe and Davies were our WB options.

Before that he kept bouncing around MLS teams until he landed in LA.

[Obinna]

18 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Perhaps worth noting that Herdman hasn't appeared to be that keen on calling up Raheem Edwards either. Maybe I have an old school mentality on this but should a fight in training really be that big a deal?

Building team unity is what Herdman is known for - so if there was a coach who would not turn a blind eye to that it'd be Herdman, I imagine. 

I remember there was a January camp (I believe it was 2021 - the camp we trained but didn't play) where it seemed like everyone was getting called in on this side of the pond. There was the initial group, then a few more guys were added, then a few more guys, and Edwards was literally the last one. That always stuck with me, as by then he was already doing well in MLS (LAFC?) and was more solid than others called before him. 

So yeah, I would agree that it seemed that way with Edwards. 

[Obinna]

Just now, VinceA said:

In fairness Edwards only got his act together as a pro in the last couple of years and by that point Adekugbe and Davies were our WB options.

Before that he kept bouncing around MLS teams until he landed in LA.

Naw man, I think it's a good observation from @Ozzie_the_parrot. I found myself scratching my head several times during Herdman's tenure when it came to Edwards. True that Adekugbe and Davies were our options on the left, but both of them were also European based and it felt like whenever we put together a domestic-heavy squad Edwards should have been on it, if not starting. He was a good age (still is) and he was good with both LA clubs for a while. Now, it's true Edwards did get selected on occassion, including in the build up to the World Cup, but Arfield was also on the GC 21 Preliminary list (as was Edwards). Maybe this was Herdman extending an olive branch to both players? I wouldn't go as far as to say this so-called bust up was primarily responsible for putting them on the naughty list - but it may have tipped the scales against them.    

[Bigandy]

12 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Naw man, I think it's a good observation from @Ozzie_the_parrot. I found myself scratching my head several times during Herdman's tenure when it came to Edwards. True that Adekugbe and Davies were our options on the left, but both of them were also European based and it felt like whenever we put together a domestic-heavy squad Edwards should have been on it, if not starting. He was a good age (still is) and he was good with both LA clubs for a while. Now, it's true Edwards did get selected on occassion, including in the build up to the World Cup, but Arfield was also on the GC 21 Preliminary list (as was Edwards). Maybe this was Herdman extending an olive branch to both players? I wouldn't go as far as to say this so-called bust up was primarily responsible for putting them on the naughty list - but it may have tipped the scales against them.    

Wasnt edwards a winger until 2022? I cant think of a time he deserved a call up but didnt receive one except for arguably this past gold cup. However, I would rather see millar and shaf get minutes at LWB than edwards. If herdman viewed him as a rotten apple, he wouldnt have gone to bahrain right before the WC. It would be way to high of a risk so close to the WC. 

Tbf arfield and edwards were both on the provisional WC list. I wouldnt read too much into the 21 prelim list.

[Obinna]

39 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Wasnt edwards a winger until 2022? I cant think of a time he deserved a call up but didnt receive one except for arguably this past gold cup. However, I would rather see millar and shaf get minutes at LWB than edwards. If herdman viewed him as a rotten apple, he wouldnt have gone to bahrain right before the WC. It would be way to high of a risk so close to the WC. 

Tbf arfield and edwards were both on the provisional WC list. I wouldnt read too much into the 21 prelim list.

According to trasnfermarkt...

2021 (LAFC) - Edwards played 8 games at left mid and 5 at left back, along with 2 games at CM and 1 at AM

2022 (LA Galaxy) - Edwards played 32 games at left back and 1 at left mid

If we look back further - to 2020 (Minnesota United) - Edwards played 15 games, but just two starts. One at each position (these positional stats only consider starts btw).

In 2019 (Chicago Fire) it was 3 games at LB

And in 2018 (Chicago Fire) - the year Herdman came on - he was all over the map

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Obinna

[Obinna]

@Bigandy maybe Herdman saw a young man who matured from the time he had a dust up with Arfield?

Edwards was much more stable career wise in 2022. He was a regular starting LB, he was playing with a coach who trusts him, and settled in a city versus bouncing around North America trying to forge a career. So it's not hard to imagine he just matured from the time he was an unsettled 24 year old to then being an established 27 year old (28 now).

For me it's not that his ommisions were criminal, but I really did feel he deserved more looks than he got. I am all for Millar and Schaff (not at wing back ideally) over Edwards, but last cycle Schaff wasn't the player he is today and Millar was a bonified winger and NOT a wing back (he's still not a WB but you know what I mean I am sure).

Am I the only one who felt Edwards could have gotten a few more looks under Herdman? If he was involved in a dust up that would explain quite a bit for me, because at the time I recall thinking hmmm...clear MLS level player....but not getting looks....interesting....what's going on there?

And again, it's not like I was demanding he start at the time, I just thought he'd be closer to the core group then he was. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Obinna
spelling

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, Obinna said:

@Bigandy maybe Herdman saw a young man who matured from the time he had a dust up with Arfield?

Edwards was much more stable career wise in 2022. He was a regular starting LB, he was playing with a coach who trusts him, and settled in a city versus bouncing around North America trying to forge a career. So it's not hard to imagine he just matured from the time he was an unsettled 24 year old to then being an established 27 year old (28 now).

For me it's not that his ommisions were criminal, but I really did feel he deserved more looks than he got. I am all for Millar and Schaff (not at wing back ideally) over Edwards, but last cycle Schaff wasn't the player he is today and Millar was a bonified winger and NOT a wing back (he's still not a WB but you know what I mean I am sure).

Am I the only one who felt Edwards could have gotten a few more looks under Herdman? If he was involved in a dust up that would explain quite a bit for me, because at the time I recall thinking hmmm...clear MLS level player....but not getting looks....interesting....what's going on there?

And again, it's not like I was demanding he start at the time, I just thought he'd be closer to the core group then he was. 

Thanks for the stats! I for sure think he matured but I dont think herdman dropped him for a dust up. I think it was merit based. I wouldnt have selected in any window he wasnt selected. 

What I read is that he was never a settled MLS player until 2022 when he moved to LWB permanently. 2 MLS starts in 2020 is pretty miserable stats when youre competing with some of our Euro talent. 

The only time I feel he was in the convo for CMNT is when hes competing with davies, adekugbe, laryea during WCQ and then ahmed, shaf, millar at the GC. Anything prior he just wasnt quite up to par IMO. 

[Obinna]

57 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Wasnt edwards a winger until 2022? I cant think of a time he deserved a call up but didnt receive one except for arguably this past gold cup. 

What about the 21 GC?

Here was the squad list

The left sided options were Cristian Gutierrez (wasn't even with the team), Tyler Pasher (who was having a strong season with Houston), and.....? 

Who even played at left back (or LWB) for us in the 2021 GC? 

[Obinna]

13 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Thanks for the stats! I for sure think he matured but I dont think herdman dropped him for a dust up. I think it was merit based. I wouldnt have selected in any window he wasnt selected. 

My read on it was that Edwards was already on the fringe, based on merit, but maybe he would have gotten in had it not been for this dust up we are speaking of. That would have tipped the scales on a player who was already on the outside looking in, no? 

Just look at that 2021 GC squad with Pasher in it. Maybe that's Edwards had it not been for the dust up? Basically the same age but Edwards already had CanMNT experience - but maybe that experience worked against him in the eyes of Herdman. 

We'll never know. 

Edit - now that I think of it, wasn't Pasher playing on the left? I seem to recall this one play where Herdman put him into the game and wanted him to cross the ball, but he didn't, and Herdman was visibly frusturated. That's the last we saw of Pasher for Canada.

At the time, I believe Pasher was doing his damage for Houston by cutting in from the right onto his left foot, but Herdman never used him this way. Pasher never really came into his own in MLS by playing on the left and providing service, but that's in Edwards locker. Maybe it was that one play etched in my mind that had me questioning why the hell he didn't pick Edwards for that role?

Edited September 8, 2023 by Obinna
added content

[Bigandy]

4 minutes ago, Obinna said:

What about the 21 GC?

Here was the squad list

The left sided options were Cristian Gutierrez (wasn't even with the team), Tyler Pasher (who was having a strong season with Houston), and.....? 

Who even played at left back (or LWB) for us in the 2021 GC? 

Good point! He was fringe for a depth call up in 2021 GC. I 100% see your point but I dont think he clearly deserved it. 

Winger - He clearly didnt deserve a winger call up over buchanan, hoillet or a dual high potential corbeanu. So it was edwards or pasher. Pasher had a great start to the 2021 MLS season. Sure it was close but I think pasher was in form and up and coming at the time so it made sense to call him.

FB - Laryea, miller and johnston played as FB I believe. He could have been called up for guti instead but guti was just coming to the MLS. Its debatable but you could argue that guti was a sensible choice at the time given he was a dual who just switched. Obv he didnt travel to the GC but his dual status probably gives him the edge since him and Edwards are close on merit.

 

[Obinna]

13 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Good point! He was fringe for a depth call up in 2021 GC. I 100% see your point but I dont think he clearly deserved it. 

Winger - He clearly didnt deserve a winger call up over buchanan, hoillet or a dual high potential corbeanu. So it was edwards or pasher. Pasher had a great start to the 2021 MLS season. Sure it was close but I think pasher was in form and up and coming at the time so it made sense to call him.

FB - Laryea, miller and johnston played as FB I believe. He could have been called up for guti instead but guti was just coming to the MLS. Its debatable but you could argue that guti was a sensible choice at the time given he was a dual who just switched. Obv he didnt travel to the GC but his dual status probably gives him the edge since him and Edwards are close on merit.

 

I would agree with all of that for sure. I think I would sum up my position on it as follows: There were multiple times where Edwards could have been called in theory (see GC 21) but most times he was not chosen AND there were logical arguments at the time why he wasn't called ....but now considering what we know about Edwards and Arfield (or what we think we know) ....it's easy to imagine the dust up would have swayed Herdman's choice on Edwards. 

For sure though it's not as if he clearly deserved a call. I honestly thought he was just unlucky to keep missing out, but maybe it was more than being unlucky...

Edited September 8, 2023 by Obinna