Grady McDonnell (2008)

[Bison44]

Hasal, Baldisimo, Bair, Coyln, Kian Froese mb Kyle Porter/Adegube/Amed would count too in a very loose sense.  They all played with Van or at least somewhere at a roughly MLS level.   Still some older guys like Carducci, Bustos might still make it somewhere.  And you still have Anchor, Boehmer, Habiboulah who might turn into something.  I wouldnt say its nothing, they must have gotten a few transfer fees out of those guys  Running the academy builds the brand, creates goodwill and interest in the community, thats worth something.  

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

16 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Agreed. It's frustrating to everyone they're dumping millions in to an operation that's producing nothing for them. But that might be the conclusion they reach.

Where does Alphonso Davies fit into this narrative?

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Hasal, Baldisimo, Bair, Coyln, Kian Froese mb Kyle Porter/Adegube/Amed would count too in a very loose sense.  They all played with Van or at least somewhere at a roughly MLS level.   Still some older guys like Carducci, Bustos might still make it somewhere.  And you still have Anchor, Boehmer, Habiboulah who might turn into something.  I wouldnt say its nothing, they must have gotten a few transfer fees out of those guys  Running the academy builds the brand, creates goodwill and interest in the community, thats worth something.  

All respectable footballers. But a very poor balance for the effort and prestige.

[CanadaFan123]

21 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Agreed. It's frustrating to everyone they're dumping millions in to an operation that's producing nothing for them. But that might be the conclusion they reach.

Is this sarcasm? 

[Bigandy]

9 hours ago, Stoppage Time said:

What needs to change? Is it the coaching, the frequency and level of competition, poor scouting, or ???

Aside from Davies, which youth player has cracked the VWFC lineup?

It depends how you look at development but VWFC developed (at least to some degree) both adekugbes, tiebert, carducci, froese, bustos, colyn, bair, hasal, odunze, pecile, matcalfe, straith, thomas, trafford, patino, haynes, chung, davies, ahmed, polisi. 

Alot of them have mls minutes. I think 9 have cmnt caps. A bunch of the rest are CPL quality players. 

It makes sense that TFC is producing more players with a higher population, more club resources and a longer time spent in the mls. 

However, there does seem to be a difference in quality from how many TFC produce vs VWFC 

[Bigandy]

TFC development
shaf, stefanovic, nelson, priso, JMR, akinola. camargo, aparicio, kerr, henry, hamilton, fraser, edwards, franklin, thompson, perruzza, petrasso, antonoglou. mbongue. 

If you take out players who are still "prospects" to soem degree (kerr, franklin etc)then youre left with edwards, shaf, henry and fraser as players who have been developed to the minimum (or higher)standard we hope for CMNT. Not alot different than davies, tiebert and adekugbe. 

So maybe the best question is - Why does TFC have so many prospects with much higher ceilings than VWFC. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

TFC development
shaf, stefanovic, nelson, priso, JMR, akinola. camargo, aparicio, kerr, henry, hamilton, fraser, edwards, franklin, thompson, perruzza, petrasso, antonoglou. mbongue. 

If you take out players who are still "prospects" to soem degree (kerr, franklin etc)then youre left with edwards, shaf, henry and fraser as players who have been developed to the minimum (or higher)standard we hope for CMNT. Not alot different than davies, tiebert and adekugbe. 

So maybe the best question is - Why does TFC have so many prospects with much higher ceilings than VWFC. 

I think both cases (and given Montreal is not much different) suggest MLS development is still poor, or that the connection between academy play, giving youth a chance, and panning out, is weak.

It is not weak in other places in the world. If it is in MLS then that is a problem, because MLS puts effort and time into creating frameworks for development, and their Canadian iterations don't really work.

[Ottawafan]

8 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Where does Alphonso Davies fit into this narrative?

Most of his development came from his days in Edmonton.  I have told this story before; Davies went on trial more than once with Vancouver and Edmonton basically had to beg VWC to take him.

[Shway]

12 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

TFC development
shaf, stefanovic, nelson, priso, JMR, akinola. camargo, aparicio, kerr, henry, hamilton, fraser, edwards, franklin, thompson, perruzza, petrasso, antonoglou. mbongue. 

If you take out players who are still "prospects" to soem degree (kerr, franklin etc)then youre left with edwards, shaf, henry and fraser as players who have been developed to the minimum (or higher)standard we hope for CMNT. Not alot different than davies, tiebert and adekugbe. 

So maybe the best question is - Why does TFC have so many prospects with much higher ceilings than VWFC. 

You left off a lot of TFC Development players, but you're new so I'll give you a bly 😜.....
Osorio although not developed as an academy player, he joined TFC at 20.
Morgan, Kaye, Pasher, Russell-Rowe, Godinho, Corbeanu, Michael Petrasso - All current or former CMNT players.
and then there's Dunn, Daniels, Singh, Manella, Okello, 

[InglewoodJack]

27 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I think both cases (and given Montreal is not much different) suggest MLS development is still poor, or that the connection between academy play, giving youth a chance, and panning out, is weak.

It is not weak in other places in the world. If it is in MLS then that is a problem, because MLS puts effort and time into creating frameworks for development, and their Canadian iterations don't really work.

Is this actually the case, or is it a case that Canada only has 3 top tier (sorry) professional teams with development academies? In the last 7 or 8 years, these 3 teams- until very recently they were the only professional level of soccer in the country, mind you, they've produced the best LB in the world, a slew of MLS regular players, young players who are destined for careers in top leagues (Colyn, Kone, Nelson), and others that have made their careers abroad as well. Not to mention all of the players who ended up filling the ranks of the CPL. We always compare MLS to these other European leagues- Turkey? Greece? Championship? I don't know that you'll find that much talent coming out of any 3 random teams in those leagues during that time frame, especially when you consider how this up and coming (say born post 2000 or so) generation of players is really the first group of Canadians who grew up knowing that a future in international soccer is an attainable goal.

That's not to say that we don't have a lot to develop and learn, but you put 20 MLS teams in Canada (unrealistic, obviously), or you give the CPL a generation to develop (~20 years), and I think our ability to develop professional players would be heralded. I mean, you look at where the CPL is at today- Vancouver FC has only existed for one season and they already have at least 3 players they have high confidence of selling abroad already. If even one of those players lands as a top quality pro, every team will follow.

Our national program ability to develop is weak, and it is a shame that Toronto has yet to produce a top tier talent- though I'd argue a big reason is that there simply are many more paths to going pro for someone in the GTA than anywhere else- but I think Canada's issue isn't how we develop players, it's how few big clubs in the country exist. That is slowly changing.

[Shway]

50 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

It depends how you look at development but VWFC developed (at least to some degree) both adekugbes, tiebert, carducci, froese, bustos, colyn, bair, hasal, odunze, pecile, matcalfe, straith, thomas, trafford, patino, haynes, chung, davies, ahmed, polisi. 

Alot of them have mls minutes. I think 9 have cmnt caps. A bunch of the rest are CPL quality players. 

It makes sense that TFC is producing more players with a higher population, more club resources and a longer time spent in the mls. 

The bolded part is also bullshit, because you add Tiebert to the list of Caps "elite" players, but forget that he left TFC academy, and went to Vancouver because of their better residency program. Porter, Adekugbe, and Froese are all residency players which existed long before TFC academy. 

My good friend KP left to go play with the caps at 16/17 and it was a massive move for him and it was a big thing because there wasn't anything like the residency in Canada (still don't).

So regardless of the MLS, the Whitecaps have beeeeen developing players and it could be seen as they have had a headstart ....Edwini-Bonsu, Stanese, Straith, Caleb Clarke, Fisk, (Malaysian international) Corbin Ong, (Jamaican Internatinional Orgill) 

 

[Snowcrash]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

It depends how you look at development but VWFC developed (at least to some degree) both adekugbes, tiebert, carducci, froese, bustos, colyn, bair, hasal, odunze, pecile, matcalfe, straith, thomas, trafford, patino, haynes, chung, davies, ahmed, polisi. 

Alot of them have mls minutes. I think 9 have cmnt caps. A bunch of the rest are CPL quality players. 

It makes sense that TFC is producing more players with a higher population, more club resources and a longer time spent in the mls. 

However, there does seem to be a difference in quality from how many TFC produce vs VWFC 

I went to high school and university in Vancouver and GTA is far more ethnically diverse.  So in addition to larger population to draw from, there is an even larger soccer youth pool to draw from.

[Bigandy]

38 minutes ago, Shway said:

The bolded part is also bullshit, because you add Tiebert to the list of Caps "elite" players, but forget that he left TFC academy, and went to Vancouver because of their better residency program. Porter, Adekugbe, and Froese are all residency players which existed long before TFC academy. 

My good friend KP left to go play with the caps at 16/17 and it was a massive move for him and it was a big thing because there wasn't anything like the residency in Canada (still don't).

So regardless of the MLS, the Whitecaps have beeeeen developing players and it could be seen as they have had a headstart ....Edwini-Bonsu, Stanese, Straith, Caleb Clarke, Fisk, (Malaysian international) Corbin Ong, (Jamaican Internatinional Orgill) 

 

You seem a bit defensive over TFC.... I said that depending on how you look at development, things change. Does cornelius count for whitecaps if Oso does? Does TFC get large credit for corbeanu? etc etc. What about raposo? Did TFC or VWFC develop him more. 

As for the "bullshit". The whitecaps residency was pretty much developed by thomas niendorf. He's arguably the best talent/youth development guy in north america. However, its foolish to say that he had anywhere near the resources TFC's academy has. So basically one main man, taking a USL team and singlehandedly developing a residency program for players and giving them careers is not in the same ballpark as TFC's abundant resources. 

Niendorf could go anywhere and develop talent while getting these players pro contracts. I wouldnt mistake his incredible talent with whitecaps....... I mean, theres a huge discrepency between how niendorf wanted to develop players in the residency and the whitecaps first team which is why niendorf left. That in itself speaks volumes to how lacklustre the residency in vancouver was. 

Some notable players from niendorf.
1. hargreaves
2. mckenna
3. Hirschfield
4. Ledgerwood
5. Straith
6. kennedy
7. Gage
8. edwini-bonsu
9. Gyau - former dortmund player
10. nsaliwa
11. Ntignee
12. Elva

Now add in the fact that toronto fc was created in 06 and started their academy in 08. While the VWFC residency was founded in 07. So yes, the whitecaps started 1 year prior to TFC, but they also didnt have the major mls resources for several years..... 

I dont have a horse in the race over TFC vs VWFC but it feels like youre quite bias towards defending TFC..... 

[Aird25]

9 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Where does Alphonso Davies fit into this narrative?

I'd guess about $14 M in the green

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, Ottawafan said:

Most of his development came from his days in Edmonton.  I have told this story before; Davies went on trial more than once with Vancouver and Edmonton basically had to beg VWC to take him.

Nothing would surprise me in that sort of regard but a $USD 22 million transfer deal (once all the performance related stuff is added in) was still ultimately obtained for a player that went through their residency program however briefly so it still shows why having an academy can work out even if they only hit the jackpot like that once every generation or so.

[dyslexic nam]

4 minutes ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

Nothing would surprise me in that sort of regard but a $USD 22 million transfer deal (once all the performance related stuff is added in) was still ultimately obtained for a player that went through their residency program however briefly so it still shows why having an academy can work out even if they only hit the jackpot like that once every generation or so.

I have never understood the idea that Davies is any sort of example of VWC's academy success. He made 11 appearances for VWC2 before moving to the senior side after basically 4 months.  They clearly bought a young player who was ready for MLS.  That says nothing whatsoever about the functionality of there academy as a player development tool.  For Davies it was a brief holding-tank for an MLS-ready elite youth player. 

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I have never understood the idea that Davies is any sort of example of VWC's academy success. He made 11 appearances for VWC2 before moving to the senior side after basically 4 months.  They clearly bought a young player who was ready for MLS.  That says nothing whatsoever about the functionality of there academy as a player development tool.  For Davies it was a brief holding-tank for an MLS-ready elite youth player. 

Did they even have to buy him? I thought they just signed him to his first professional contract, because no clubs in Alberta were set up to offer him much in terms of pay or a pathway. 

Comparing the results of 3 clubs splitting the country up isn't all that valuable of a comparison in regards to player development imo. The 3 MLS clubs just chose the best players they could identify from their jurisdictions without having to offer anything to the player or youth club. Sometimes it worked, often it didn't. Sometimes real development was involved, and other times it wasn't. Any sort of analysis should probably consider how the club helped the player from A to B

Edited January 19 by Aird25

[Bigandy]

2 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I have never understood the idea that Davies is any sort of example of VWC's academy success. He made 11 appearances for VWC2 before moving to the senior side after basically 4 months.  They clearly bought a young player who was ready for MLS.  That says nothing whatsoever about the functionality of there academy as a player development tool.  For Davies it was a brief holding-tank for an MLS-ready elite youth player. 

Although I agree with the spirit of your post, I think it can be a bit simplistic. As someone around davies and whitecaps 2, I wouldnt say he was an MLS ready elite player at the time of joining whitecaps. Sure he had elite attributes but he needed to clean up some things before he was ready. It was minor and easily explains why he was so quick to climb the ladder but some development was required. Would he have gotten equal development at pretty much any club in the world? Probably. But at least the whitecaps didnt fumble a 99% sure thing..... 

[Unnamed Trialist]

4 hours ago, Bigandy said:

You seem a bit defensive over TFC.... I said that depending on how you look at development, things change. Does cornelius count for whitecaps if Oso does? Does TFC get large credit for corbeanu? etc etc. What about raposo? Did TFC or VWFC develop him more. 

As for the "bullshit". The whitecaps residency was pretty much developed by thomas niendorf. He's arguably the best talent/youth development guy in north america. However, its foolish to say that he had anywhere near the resources TFC's academy has. So basically one main man, taking a USL team and singlehandedly developing a residency program for players and giving them careers is not in the same ballpark as TFC's abundant resources. 

Niendorf could go anywhere and develop talent while getting these players pro contracts. I wouldnt mistake his incredible talent with whitecaps....... I mean, theres a huge discrepency between how niendorf wanted to develop players in the residency and the whitecaps first team which is why niendorf left. That in itself speaks volumes to how lacklustre the residency in vancouver was. 

Some notable players from niendorf.
1. hargreaves
2. mckenna
3. Hirschfield
4. Ledgerwood
5. Straith
6. kennedy
7. Gage
8. edwini-bonsu
9. Gyau - former dortmund player
10. nsaliwa
11. Ntignee
12. Elva

Now add in the fact that toronto fc was created in 06 and started their academy in 08. While the VWFC residency was founded in 07. So yes, the whitecaps started 1 year prior to TFC, but they also didnt have the major mls resources for several years..... 

I dont have a horse in the race over TFC vs VWFC but it feels like youre quite bias towards defending TFC..... 

@Shway biased and defensive in favour of TFC, how did you ever come to that conclusion?

[Unnamed Trialist]

26 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Although I agree with the spirit of your post, I think it can be a bit simplistic. As someone around davies and whitecaps 2, I wouldnt say he was an MLS ready elite player at the time of joining whitecaps. Sure he had elite attributes but he needed to clean up some things before he was ready. It was minor and easily explains why he was so quick to climb the ladder but some development was required. Would he have gotten equal development at pretty much any club in the world? Probably. But at least the whitecaps didnt fumble a 99% sure thing..... 

When Davies played for Whitecaps, he had flashes, moments.

He was not really close to being a ready product. In fact, objectively, Davies at Whitecaps was not better--at least not by far, if at all-- than a young Kekutah Manneh at Whitecaps. I recall taking my son to see him one summer, sitting in the Southside, me yapping about the hype around him, Alphonso with a terrible first touch, or running madly off the endline before he could figure out what to do. 

That said, he was developed by Whitecaps, and would not be a professional today if it weren't for the team. He was by no means a 99% sure thing, though; in fact, he could well have fallen beside the way. He had no guidance from family, and the good will and perseverance of his coaches in contact with the Caps could easily have been ignored by an incompetent scout at Vancouver. Saying all this, because TFC or Montreal were sure not knocking at the door of a kid who could not even afford to play in Edmonton at age 15. 

Because a player is moved up to a first team young, skipping part of the natural development path, does not mean he is not being developed. At Barça we have many players who rarely played for the B team, and even skipped the u-19s, we have 4-5 kids on the first team like that now, some even starting games. But we still developed and are still developing them. To go further: as clubs move younger and younger players into their first teams, as the physical and skill development becomes more precocious, the definition of development will have to be adjusted.

Edited January 19 by Unnamed Trialist

[Dominic94]

@Footyeh can he have the impact Tahid did ?

[SpursFlu]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

When Davies played for Whitecaps, he had flashes, moments.

He was not really close to being a ready product. In fact, objectively, Davies at Whitecaps was not better--at least not by far, if at all-- than a young Kekutah Manneh at Whitecaps.

That said, he was still developed by Whitecaps, and would not be a professional today if it weren't for the team. He was by no means a 99% sure thing, though; in fact, he could well have fallen besie the way. He had no guidance from family, and the good will of his coaches in contact with the Caps could have been ignored by an incompetent scout at Vancouver. Saying all this, because TFC or Montreal were sure not knocking at the door of a kid who could not even afford to play in Edmonton at age 15. 

Because a player is moved up to a first team young, skipping part of the natural development path, does not mean he is not being developed. At Barça we have many players who rarely played for the B team, and even skipped the u-19s, we have 4-5 kids on the first team like that now, some even starting games. But we still developed and are still developing them. To go further: as clubs move younger and younger players into their first teams, as the physical and skill development becomes more precocious, the definition of development will have to be adjusted.

I totally disagree with you. I'm not sure what you mean by finished product but at 16 it was obvious that Davies was special. On the other hand Manneh never looked like much to me. MLS is a very difficult league for young players because it's style of play. If you can physically hang like Davies in certain areas of the field it's pretty impressive. Manneh always looked lost and really only excelled when he found time and space. The only way he ever found time and space was if he neglected other responsibilities on the field

[dyslexic nam]

16 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

When Davies played for Whitecaps, he had flashes, moments.

He was not really close to being a ready product. In fact, objectively, Davies at Whitecaps was not better--at least not by far, if at all-- than a young Kekutah Manneh at Whitecaps. I recall taking my son to see him one summer, sitting in the Southside, me yapping about the hype around him, Alphonso with a terrible first touch, or running madly off the endline before he could figure out what to do. 

That said, he was developed by Whitecaps, and would not be a professional today if it weren't for the team. He was by no means a 99% sure thing, though; in fact, he could well have fallen beside the way. He had no guidance from family, and the good will and perseverance of his coaches in contact with the Caps could easily have been ignored by an incompetent scout at Vancouver. Saying all this, because TFC or Montreal were sure not knocking at the door of a kid who could not even afford to play in Edmonton at age 15. 

Because a player is moved up to a first team young, skipping part of the natural development path, does not mean he is not being developed. At Barça we have many players who rarely played for the B team, and even skipped the u-19s, we have 4-5 kids on the first team like that now, some even starting games. But we still developed and are still developing them. To go further: as clubs move younger and younger players into their first teams, as the physical and skill development becomes more precocious, the definition of development will have to be adjusted.

Just to clarify - I have no issues with giving Whitecaps substantial credit for developing Davies.  They played him as a kid, continued to give him maximum opportunities to develop, and were essentially the perfect platform for him to grow over his time there.  Full credit to them   

It just has nothing whatsoever to do with the effectiveness of their academy.  
 

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

Just to clarify - I have no issues with giving Whitecaps substantial credit for developing Davies.  They played him as a kid, continued to give him maximum opportunities to develop, and were essentially the perfect platform for him to grow over his time there.  Full credit to them   

It just has nothing whatsoever to do with the effectiveness of their academy.  
 

It has something altogether (if that is the opposite of "whatsoever") because the academy signs him, sets him up, plays him. Because he was not signed to play for the first team. It went through the academy people, in their terms. They even found him a girlfriend (gonna get flack for that one, sorry).

It only happened quickly that he was moved into the first team, that is all. 

[SpursFlu]

3 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Just to clarify - I have no issues with giving Whitecaps substantial credit for developing Davies.  They played him as a kid, continued to give him maximum opportunities to develop, and were essentially the perfect platform for him to grow over his time there.  Full credit to them   

It just has nothing whatsoever to do with the effectiveness of their academy.  
 

Why? Or is it just because you say so?

It's not their fault he was too good to play against kids when he was 16. Should they have entered their academy in the MLS to prove the effectiveness of their academy?

Edited January 19 by SpursFlu