CNL: Jamaica vs Canada - Saturday, November 18th - 10:30am EST / 7:30am Pacific - Kingston, Jamaica

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

Plus, with Jamaica, *knock on wood* but has this supposed super squad with all these premier league players coming together actually led to anything yet? I feel like we keep hearing about how Jamaica came out of nowhere with this amazing squad, but other than draws against Mexico and the US (no small feat obviously), but since then, they got smacked by Mexico, drew Haiti, beat Grenada, then beat Haiti. You add our best guys, you give us home field advantage, and again, knock on wood, but how are people not seeing us as the (one last time, knock on wood) overwhelming favourite here? We haven't seen Canada's best lineup in some time now. I guess a lot of our players aren't playing too well right now, and maybe JD and Larin will put up a stinker, but I really like our chances here.

Another look at this is that since the final WCQ, jamaica has lost to mexico in the semi finals of the GC but hasnt lost another competitive game. Ya theres a couple of "bad" draws but theyve also drawn some powerhouses.  We've played far less matches than jamaica since WCQ. If we had the record of jamaica since WCQ we would be happy with a bit of a disappointment over the haiti draw. 

The narrative that jamaica hasnt done anything and has no chemistry is not quite accurate. I would say that the truth is that jamaica's form has put them on par with canada which is slightly behind mexico and behind the USA. 

[Bigandy]

Jamaica post WCQ in competitive games

7-5-1 

Suriname D

Suriname W 

Mexico D 

Mexico D

USA D - GC

T & T - W - GC

Saint Kitts - W - GC

Guatemala - W - GC

Mexico - L - GC

Honduras - W

Haiti - D

Grenada - W 

Haiti - W

 

[Bigandy]

Canada post WCQ 
4-2-2 

Canada post WCQ not including GC
3-0-1 

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

Plus, with Jamaica, *knock on wood* but has this supposed super squad with all these premier league players coming together actually led to anything yet? 

This.

They have two matches here to prove that narrative, and I don't see it happening.

 

 

[Bigandy]

7 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

This.

They have two matches here to prove that narrative, and I don't see it happening.

 

 

I think they have already proven the narrative that they are good. 

Their record is phenomenal. 

look at the non wins -
suriname draw - this was clearly not their A squad
Mexico draw - missing antonio, gray, reid, pinnock, lembiska plus all the championship level guys who commited later on
mexico draw - missing antonia, and gray and a bunch of the championship level guys.
usa draw - no pinnock but pretty close to the best 11
haiti - no antonio or lembiska but close to the best 11. 71% possession. 

Where is this narrative coming from that Jamaica hasnt done anything with their superstars.  They are arguably even over achieving by tying mexico twice and the USA while not losing any matches to any other teams.  


 

[Obinna]

44 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think they have already proven the narrative that they are good. 

Their record is phenomenal. 

look at the non wins -
suriname draw - this was clearly not their A squad
Mexico draw - missing antonio, gray, reid, pinnock, lembiska plus all the championship level guys who commited later on
mexico draw - missing antonia, and gray and a bunch of the championship level guys.
usa draw - no pinnock but pretty close to the best 11
haiti - no antonio or lembiska but close to the best 11. 71% possession. 

Where is this narrative coming from that Jamaica hasnt done anything with their superstars.  They are arguably even over achieving by tying mexico twice and the USA while not losing any matches to any other teams.  


 

Not saying I disagree with your overall point, but the USA draw deserves a big fat asterik. They had their A squad and the USA had a B/C team. I know this was an away match and (I watched it) Jamaica was the better team for the most part, but this draw for me was points dropped, not points gained.

Consider this, if we had our A team and we couldn't beat that USA team in Chicago, would we hold that draw up as an accomplishment? No way. 

Similarly, if we drew Haiti 2-2 and were missing David and Johnston, but had everyone else, I think we would be very disappointed to say the least. 

Fair enough on the Mexico draws, but Mexico despite winning the Gold Cup were in flux during those draws. They are only now just seeming to put it together with the win against Ghana and the draw against Germany. 

Finally, the Suriname draw is not something I would hold up as being a good thing either, B squad or not. Again, at this point I don't think our B squad drawing Suriname is something we'd be excusing. 

[BearcatSA]

47 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

I think they have already proven the narrative that they are good. 

Their record is phenomenal. 

look at the non wins -
suriname draw - this was clearly not their A squad
Mexico draw - missing antonio, gray, reid, pinnock, lembiska plus all the championship level guys who commited later on
mexico draw - missing antonia, and gray and a bunch of the championship level guys.
usa draw - no pinnock but pretty close to the best 11
haiti - no antonio or lembiska but close to the best 11. 71% possession. 

Where is this narrative coming from that Jamaica hasnt done anything with their superstars.  They are arguably even over achieving by tying mexico twice and the USA while not losing any matches to any other 

They get a chance in this tie to prove me wrong and if they do, so be it.

[Bigandy]

44 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Not saying I disagree with your overall point, but the USA draw deserves a big fat asterik. They had their A squad and the USA had a B/C team. I know this was an away match and (I watched it) Jamaica was the better team for the most part, but this draw for me was points dropped, not points gained.

Consider this, if we had our A team and we couldn't beat that USA team in Chicago, would we hold that draw up as an accomplishment? No way. 

Similarly, if we drew Haiti 2-2 and were missing David and Johnston, but had everyone else, I think we would be very disappointed to say the least. 

Fair enough on the Mexico draws, but Mexico despite winning the Gold Cup were in flux during those draws. They are only now just seeming to put it together with the win against Ghana and the draw against Germany. 

Finally, the Suriname draw is not something I would hold up as being a good thing either, B squad or not. Again, at this point I don't think our B squad drawing Suriname is something we'd be excusing. 

Great points on all of those. 

The haiti and suriname draw to me would be equivalent of us drawing and losing to honduras since 2021. Us beating mexico in edmonton and losing to the USA B/C also has an asterisk because of weather and B/C squads. 

Essentially, I would say that jamaica is performing at an equal level to Canada. If you compare their squad to the USA's, they are clearly below them. Arguably better on paper than mexico (as are we?). 

Alot of us say Canada is underperforming recently. I think we are hitting the standard but not exceeding it. I would say jamiaca is doing the same as a top 4 team in the region. 

[Watchmen]

18 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Alot of us say Canada is underperforming recently. I think we are hitting the standard but not exceeding it. I would say jamiaca is doing the same as a top 4 team in the region. 

I always think Jamaica has the same problem we do: even when the talent is there, the funding isn't.

[Kadenge]

Jamaica's Reid with 2 assists for Fulham today, the first was a beauty and he almost scored as well. 

[Shway]

4 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I always think Jamaica has the same problem we do: even when the talent is there, the funding isn't.

Reiterates my stance that some of our players are just greedy. Born and raised in the country and are "begging" for money to play for their country. 

Meanwhile Reggae Boyz fans refer to the "beggars list" as the English born and raised, ancestral Jamaicans who come play for the country under worse circumstances. 

If Jamaica had our money/funding they would be a Concacaf perennial power. 

[costarg]

2 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I would say jamiaca is doing the same as a top 4 team in the region. 

Considering Panama is now ahead of us in the rankings.  We should probably change that to top 5.

[SpursFlu]

I think our biggest problem has always been that we haven't had very good soccer players 

[Bigandy]

13 hours ago, costarg said:

Considering Panama is now ahead of us in the rankings.  We should probably change that to top 5.

Good point. Im of the mindset we are better than panama and so is jamaica.... but panama is a proper team at the moment while us and jamaica have some coaching/chemistry issues. 

[Obinna]

18 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Great points on all of those. 

The haiti and suriname draw to me would be equivalent of us drawing and losing to honduras since 2021. Us beating mexico in edmonton and losing to the USA B/C also has an asterisk because of weather and B/C squads. 

Essentially, I would say that jamaica is performing at an equal level to Canada. If you compare their squad to the USA's, they are clearly below them. Arguably better on paper than mexico (as are we?). 

Alot of us say Canada is underperforming recently. I think we are hitting the standard but not exceeding it. I would say jamiaca is doing the same as a top 4 team in the region. 

I do think Jamaica on paper are pretty much our level more or less.

What I am not sure about is how to view their recent results. Right now I am leaning towards being slightly underwhelmed.

Why do you say Jamaica drawing Suriname and Haiti today is like us drawing and losing to Honduras back in 2021? Honduras are clearly better than Suriname and Haiti so why suggest the equivalency there? Maybe I missed something.

I respectfully disagree in giving us an Asterisk for beating Mexico at home due to weather, just as I wouldn't put an asterisk next to our loss down in Honduras due to a wet pitch. The conditions were the same for both teams.

Not sure what you mean about the USA thing so feel free to explain but to me all has been fair between them and us. We beat them at home in qualifying in tough conditions. They beat us at home in the Nations League final. They beat our B squad in extra time with their B/C squad, at home, which seems about right given the players on both sides.

Final nitpick - I think Mexico has a better squad than Canada. We have the best player in the confederation, a top 3 forward (inarguably), and a top 3 midfielder (arguably), but after that we have a drop off.

Can we say Buchanan is a top 5 winger in this region? I think it's a stretch. Top 10 winger? Likely yes. Can we say Larin is a top 5 forward in this region? I think it's a stretch and definitely not on his current form. Top 10? Again I would say so. Are there any other players we can talk about in this vein? Maybe Johnston...but that's it.

Mexico is actually less impressive if we do the best player in the region thing. Chucky is a top 5 winger and Santi is a top 5 forward (on the strength of club form), but after that you are looking at guys like Montes and Vasquez being top 10 CBs (probably not top 5), then Alvarez would be like Eustaquio (arguably top 3 midfielder). Sanchez is roughly Johnston level and Arteaga and Pineda deserve a shout out, maybe Chaves too. Is that more impressive than our top end? Ehhhh I think we edge them.

Where they are better is everything underneath. Who haven't I mentioned? Jimenez (still in the Prem), Romo, Antuna, Martin, Ochoa, Gallardo, Cordova, Vega, Alvarado, Lainez, Corona (back in Liga MX now).....etc. 

In short, they still have better players from about 6 to as far down as you wanna go. From 6 to 14 I would say their advantage is slight, which is why we can beat them on our day, but after that I would say their advantage in depth gets more apparent.

Wow... didn't expect to type so much and get so off topic .... 

[Bigandy]

Just now, Obinna said:

I do think Jamaica on paper are pretty much our level more or less.

What I am not sure about is how to view their recent results. Right now I am leaning towards being slightly underwhelmed.

Why do you say Jamaica drawing Suriname and Haiti today is like us drawing and losing to Honduras back in 2021? Honduras are clearly better than Suriname and Haiti so why suggest the equivalency there? Maybe I missed something.

I respectfully disagree in giving us an Asterisk for beating Mexico at home due to weather, just as I wouldn't put an asterisk next to our loss down in Honduras due to a wet pitch. The conditions were the same for both teams.

Not sure what you mean about the USA thing so feel free to explain but to me all has been fair between them and us. We beat them at home in qualifying in tough conditions. They beat us at home in the Nations League final. They beat our B squad in extra time with their B/C squad, at home, which seems about right given the players on both sides.

Final nitpick - I think Mexico has a better squad than Canada. We have the best player in the confederation, a top 3 forward (inarguably), and a top 3 midfielder (arguably), but after that we have a drop off.

Can we say Buchanan is a top 5 winger in this region? I think it's a stretch. Top 10 winger? Likely yes. Can we say Larin is a top 5 forward in this region? I think it's a stretch and definitely not on his current form. Top 10? Again I would say so. Are there any other players we can talk about in this vein? Maybe Johnston...but that's it.

Mexico is actually less impressive if we do the best player in the region thing. Chucky is a top 5 winger and Santi is a top 5 forward (on the strength of club form), but after that you are looking at guys like Montes and Vasquez being top 10 CBs (probably not top 5), then Alvarez would be like Eustaquio (arguably top 3 midfielder). Sanchez is roughly Johnston level and Arteaga and Pineda deserve a shout out, maybe Chaves too. Is that more impressive than our top end? Ehhhh I think we edge them.

Where they are better is everything underneath. Who haven't I mentioned? Jimenez (still in the Prem), Romo, Antuna, Martin, Ochoa, Gallardo, Cordova, Vega, Alvarado, Lainez, Corona (back in Liga MX now).....etc. 

In short, they still have better players from about 6 to as far down as you wanna go. From 6 to 14 I would say their advantage is slight, which is why we can beat them on our day, but after that I would say their advantage in depth gets more apparent.

Wow... didn't expect to type so much and get so off topic .... 

Jamaica
jamaicas draw with suriname was with their B team. 
Jamaica's draw with haiti was with closer to their A team but they dominated possession. 
These are matches they expect to win just like we expect to beat honduras. Yes, honduras is better but I am basically saying that we are not a team that wins every game except vs mexico and the USA. Our B team ties guadeloupe, jamaicas draws suriname. Thats arguably the exact same. Jamaica dominates but ties haiti, we dominate but lose to honduras twice. 

If jamaica gets an asterisk for drawing mexico twice because mexico had some instability in the squad, then we get an asterisk for field conditions. I think both are deserved results and shouldnt have an asterisk but if one does, both should imo. 

The reason the USA gold cup game has an asterisk for us is just because it was B squad vs B squad. So we cant really draw too many conclusions. 100% agree with us beating usa in qualifying but my comparison with jamaica is post WC form only. 

Mexico
Johnston = Sanchez = lembiska 
Vitoria<montes = pinnock
Miller < vasquez > lowe
Davies>  gallardo < bell
Staq=alvarez> latibeaudiere
Kone = roma > johnson
oso=ish sanchez< reid
Buchanan<close chucky=gray
David = giminez = bailey 
Larin =ish jimenez = antonio 

Now obivously we can look at larins form and say its bad, but for canada in concacaf hes been more effective than antonio and jiminez.

Lots of very debatable points above but the sentiment is that on paper, not fully considering form etc. Its is very close between all 3

Guys in europe (not including lowqer levels like cornelius or pineda)
johnston, staq, davies, kone, buchanan, larin, david 
montes vasquez arteaga sanchez alvarez jiminez gimenez chucky 

Thats very similar.... super lazy to not give context but its not like the USA where its very very clear they are ahead. 

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Bigandy said:

Jamaica
jamaicas draw with suriname was with their B team. 
Jamaica's draw with haiti was with closer to their A team but they dominated possession. 
These are matches they expect to win just like we expect to beat honduras. Yes, honduras is better but I am basically saying that we are not a team that wins every game except vs mexico and the USA. Our B team ties guadeloupe, jamaicas draws suriname. Thats arguably the exact same. Jamaica dominates but ties haiti, we dominate but lose to honduras twice. 

If jamaica gets an asterisk for drawing mexico twice because mexico had some instability in the squad, then we get an asterisk for field conditions. I think both are deserved results and shouldnt have an asterisk but if one does, both should imo. 

The reason the USA gold cup game has an asterisk for us is just because it was B squad vs B squad. So we cant really draw too many conclusions. 100% agree with us beating usa in qualifying but my comparison with jamaica is post WC form only. 

Mexico
Johnston = Sanchez = lembiska 
Vitoria<montes = pinnock
Miller < vasquez > lowe
Davies>  gallardo < bell
Staq=alvarez> latibeaudiere
Kone = roma > johnson
oso=ish sanchez< reid
Buchanan<close chucky=gray
David = giminez = bailey 
Larin =ish jimenez = antonio 

Now obivously we can look at larins form and say its bad, but for canada in concacaf hes been more effective than antonio and jiminez.

Lots of very debatable points above but the sentiment is that on paper, not fully considering form etc. Its is very close between all 3

Guys in europe (not including lowqer levels like cornelius or pineda)
johnston, staq, davies, kone, buchanan, larin, david 
montes vasquez arteaga sanchez alvarez jiminez gimenez chucky 

Thats very similar.... super lazy to not give context but its not like the USA where its very very clear they are ahead. 

Good points and won't bother quibbling much over some of the comparisons (Lembiska not currently Johnston/Sanchez level but he can get there). Generally you have it right I believe.

I think I mislead you on the Mexico thing. I am with you because I don't think Jamaica deserve an asterisk they rightly deserve their result against Mexico, as did we against Honduras on a waterlogged pitch. It's true that Mexico were not in a good moment but that's not to take anything away from Jamaica. It goes to show that on their day they can draw a team like Mexico, as can we.

But we beat Mexico and Jamaica hasn't. If anyone calls that splitting hairs than so be it. To me that victory was massive psychologically. So while Jamaica are basically our level they haven't beaten the USA or Mexico in recent times - we have. That means nothing when it comes to who wins the series in a few weeks, but in the conversation of CONCACAF "best of the rest" we are still ahead of them until proven otherwise. They have their chance very soon. We have our chance to firm up our 3rd best in CONCACAF claims. If we get by Jamaica and then finish above Costa Rica / Panama again in the NL finals, I think it'll be a pretty big statement in terms of who the 3rd best in CONCACAF truely is.

[Bigandy]

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Good points and won't bother quibbling much over some of the comparisons (Lembiska not currently Johnston/Sanchez level but he can get there). Generally you have it right I believe.

I think I mislead you on the Mexico thing. I am with you because I don't think Jamaica deserve an asterisk they rightly deserve their result against Mexico, as did we against Honduras on a waterlogged pitch. It's true that Mexico were not in a good moment but that's not to take anything away from Jamaica. It goes to show that on their day they can draw a team like Mexico, as can we.

But we beat Mexico and Jamaica hasn't. If anyone calls that splitting hairs than so be it. To me that victory was massive psychologically. So while Jamaica are basically our level they haven't beaten the USA or Mexico in recent times - we have. That means nothing when it comes to who wins the series in a few weeks, but in the conversation of CONCACAF "best of the rest" we are still ahead of them until proven otherwise. They have their chance very soon. We have our chance to firm up our 3rd best in CONCACAF claims. If we get by Jamaica and then finish above Costa Rica / Panama again in the NL finals, I think it'll be a pretty big statement in terms of who the 3rd best in CONCACAF truely is.

100% this. Tons of debate on player comparisons. 

On paper we are roughly equal but factors like form, team cohesiveness, and psychological factors have me believing we are 3 and jamaica is 4th. I think in 3 years we have 3 top CB's coming thru, most major guys in their primes, guys like corbeanu and nelson contributing consistently and depth at CM. Ill pick our squad our squad then over jamaicas but as of today its closer.

[mluciani]

When is the roster being released for these games?

[narduch]

3 minutes ago, mluciani said:

When is the roster being released for these games?

My guess the Thursday or Friday of the week before

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

Jamaica will release a roster first for their friendly next weekend.

I assume they will release a 2nd for CNL.

[Stoppage Time]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

My guess the Thursday or Friday of the week before

Nah. The Thursday or Friday the week after. More in keeping with the CSA.

[narduch]

 

 

[dyslexic nam]

Big money, no whammies! 

[Vasi]

Dam. That's early for the CSA.