CNL: Jamaica vs Canada - Saturday, November 18th - 10:30am EST / 7:30am Pacific - Kingston, Jamaica

[Alex]

56 minutes ago, VinceA said:

I don't think we can score in Jamaica. We aren't in form and even when we were it was a 0-0 draw.

We did score… Millar just put it straight at Andre Blake 😂 😆 

[Kadenge]

15 hours ago, Shway said:

Knowing this, the status quo lineup should be....

--------------Borjan------------
--- Johnston-Vitoria-Miller---
Buchanan---Staq---Kone---Davies
----------------Osorio-----------
------------David---Larin--------

 

since you are probably most familiar with the Jamaican squad and their recent performances, is this formation/players the best set up for an away game vs Jamaica? Asking for what you would like to see vs what you expect Biello to do.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, VinceA said:

I don't think we can score in Jamaica. We aren't in form and even when we were it was a 0-0 draw.

Wanted to dig into this part. 

When we played down there I don't think we looked good, but we had this as our starting line up on the day:

 

I don't think we rotate like this now. We will put out our strongest line up for both matches. Out of those who started that match two years ago we are likely to see only David, Davies and Johnston start, and maybe Cornelius.

 

Now, to be fair they never had their strongest line up either. They put this out:

 

@Shway is the most versed with Jamaica here, but I would guess that Bobby Reid, Andre Blake and maybe Shamar Nicholson will be the only players who will start from that line up. So you could say both teams will be very different. 

Can't wait to see how it all plays out.

[blueseeka]

So weird to see a Canada lineup as a 4-4-2. I would be so happy to see a formation like this

Johnston (Buchanen) - Vitoria (or Cornelius) - Miller - Davies

Ahmed (Choniere)  - Kone (Oso) - Eustaquio - Miller (Corbeanu)

David - Larin (Hoilett)

Definitely looks weird

[Bigandy]

Jamaica looks scary good on paper. 

Pinnock, BDCR, Antonio, Bailey, Gray, Bell - prem players (if gray still counts)
Nicholson - Ligue 1 
Laribeaudiere, Lembiska, Bernard, Johnson, lowe - Championship
Lowe, Blake, Brown, Gray, Lambert, Lawrence, morrison, burke - MLS
Cassanova, Splatt, roberts, richards, hutchinson - Youth prem guys 

Blake
Lembiska  lowe Pinnock Bell
Latibeaudiere Johnson palmer/richards? 
Gray Antonio Bailey 

Thats basically 3 players who are not prem/championship quality. They have the better first 16ish on paper....
 

[Olympique_de_Marseille]

On 10/26/2023 at 10:23 PM, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

Kickoff time is not yet known

Kickoff time announced.

7pm Eastern (and local)

https://www.concacaf.com/nations-league/news/concacaf-confirms-november-schedule-for-2023-24-concacaf-nations-league-matches/

[Shway]

57 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

since you are probably most familiar with the Jamaican squad and their recent performances, is this formation/players the best set up for an away game vs Jamaica? Asking for what you would like to see vs what you expect Biello to do.

What I would do based on our reality is exactly what I stated. The reason is the Japan game gave me a different perspective, and it's not just because they are quality, but more so that we looked completely out of sorts and the fact that our best IX hasn't played together in 5 months showed that. Meanwhile, our upcoming opponents have played 14 games this year with the majority of their first-choice players. So for me, it makes sense to go back to the status quo of things even considering a lot of our guys just aren't in form - continuity is vital.

Formation wise, the 352 works because it gets all our best players on the field, our best players are familiar with it, and the majority play the same position at their clubs (aside from AJ). If we switch to a 442 I just see a lot of imbalance, and it gives the potential for Jamaica to win the battle in the midfield (where we should be stronger).

Jamaica plays a 433/4231 and they most likely will look like this baring any injuries.
(I could see Bobby starting but wouldn't be surprised to see Lambert start in his place and drop in.)

This Jamaican team is strong in attack, and they are getting better defensively. The game will either be lost or won in the middle because it's been stated that we match up well with them as you can see, but their wide players aren't strong defensively like our wingbacks. This is the reason why I think the 352 is best (or a 451). The difference is that we are or have been a better transition team especially when we can absorb an attack. 

I suspect that we get scored on from 3-4 passes. A direct ball is played over our midfield to Antonio who holds up play and connects with Bailey or Gray. 

[Bigandy]

@Shway Wouldnt bell play LB? And do you know if Reid plays as a cam ever for jamaica? Or is there a chance of a 4-4-2 with nicholson coming in for reid? Im just speculating based on club pedigree of some of these guys.  

[Shway]

21 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

@Shway Wouldnt bell play LB? And do you know if Reid plays as a cam ever for jamaica? Or is there a chance of a 4-4-2 with nicholson coming in for reid? Im just speculating based on club pedigree of some of these guys.  

Bell is out injured and I think he'll be short of match fitness if he does return last minute. Same reason why Kasey Palmer isn't in the squad. 

Reid has played everywhere in attack for Jamaica. But definitely has played as a CAM.

I think if Antonio isn't in for whatever reason, than Nicholson slots in. Nicholson and Antonio do the same thing imo, and it's only likely to see both of them unless they are trying to "go for it".

EDIT: wasn't sure, but confirmed Nicholson and Antonio have never started together. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Shway

[costarg]

44 minutes ago, Shway said:

What I would do based on our reality is exactly what I stated. The reason is the Japan game gave me a different perspective, and it's not just because they are quality, but more so that we looked completely out of sorts and the fact that our best IX hasn't played together in 5 months showed that. Meanwhile, our upcoming opponents have played 14 games this year with the majority of their first-choice players. So for me, it makes sense to go back to the status quo of things even considering a lot of our guys just aren't in form - continuity is vital.

Formation wise, the 352 works because it gets all our best players on the field, our best players are familiar with it, and the majority play the same position at their clubs (aside from AJ). If we switch to a 442 I just see a lot of imbalance, and it gives the potential for Jamaica to win the battle in the midfield (where we should be stronger).

Jamaica plays a 433/4231 and they most likely will look like this baring any injuries.
(I could see Bobby starting but wouldn't be surprised to see Lambert start in his place and drop in.)

This Jamaican team is strong in attack, and they are getting better defensively. The game will either be lost or won in the middle because it's been stated that we match up well with them as you can see, but their wide players aren't strong defensively like our wingbacks. This is the reason why I think the 352 is best (or a 451). The difference is that we are or have been a better transition team especially when we can absorb an attack. 

I suspect that we get scored on from 3-4 passes. A direct ball is played over our midfield to Antonio who holds up play and connects with Bailey or Gray. 

4-5-1 is where it's at.  Like you said, it'll be won or lost in the midfield.  Playing 2 strikers is pointless and Larin isn't in form and hasn't been in months.

-------------David

Davies - Kone - Staq - Choiniere - Tajon

Adekugbe - Kennedy - MacGraw - Johnston

*Davies at LB is also a strong possibilty, it comes down to Millar at LW vs Adekugbe at LB. 

*Tonnes of different CB combinations are possible, we just haven't seen enough to judge properly.  But going with something we know doesn't work is just silly at this point.  I just went with Kennedy's quickness and height to compensate for MacGraw's lack of speed.

[Bigandy]

5 minutes ago, costarg said:

4-5-1 is where it's at.  Like you said, it'll be won or lost in the midfield.  Playing 2 strikers is pointless and Larin isn't in form and hasn't been in months.

-------------David

Davies - Kone - Staq - Choiniere - Tajon

Adekugbe - Kennedy - MacGraw - Johnston

*Davies at LB is also a strong possibilty, it comes down to Millar at LW vs Adekugbe at LB. 

*Tonnes of different CB combinations are possible, we just haven't seen enough to judge properly.  But going with something we know doesn't work is just silly at this point.  I just went with Kennedy's quickness and height to compensate for MacGraw's lack of speed.

You could argue that we know 3atb works in concacaf and that the core player selection works. We won qualifying with it. 

I think its pretty obvious that any formation with any canadian personal wasnt going to work against croatia or japan etc. 

Kennedy and mcgraw are both unlikely to make the 23 imo, let alone start. 

[BearcatSA]

7 minutes ago, Bigandy said:

Kennedy and mcgraw are both unlikely to make the 23 imo, let alone start. 

I can't rememer if McGraw was hurt but if both of these two were seen as options, they would have been brought to Japan.

If a back four, it will be Vitoria with either Miller or Cornelius as his parther.  However, I am still betting on the usual back three.

[Kadenge]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

What I would do based on our reality is exactly what I stated. The reason is the Japan game gave me a different perspective, and it's not just because they are quality, but more so that we looked completely out of sorts and the fact that our best IX hasn't played together in 5 months showed that. Meanwhile, our upcoming opponents have played 14 games this year with the majority of their first-choice players. So for me, it makes sense to go back to the status quo of things even considering a lot of our guys just aren't in form - continuity is vital.

Formation wise, the 352 works because it gets all our best players on the field, our best players are familiar with it, and the majority play the same position at their clubs (aside from AJ). If we switch to a 442 I just see a lot of imbalance, and it gives the potential for Jamaica to win the battle in the midfield (where we should be stronger).

Jamaica plays a 433/4231 and they most likely will look like this baring any injuries.
(I could see Bobby starting but wouldn't be surprised to see Lambert start in his place and drop in.)

This Jamaican team is strong in attack, and they are getting better defensively. The game will either be lost or won in the middle because it's been stated that we match up well with them as you can see, but their wide players aren't strong defensively like our wingbacks. This is the reason why I think the 352 is best (or a 451). The difference is that we are or have been a better transition team especially when we can absorb an attack. 

I suspect that we get scored on from 3-4 passes. A direct ball is played over our midfield to Antonio who holds up play and connects with Bailey or Gray. 

Appreciate the explanations and understand the reasons for continuity. In the set up you have, do we have defensive pace to deal with Bailey and Gray out wide or Antonio down the middle? When Davies plays WB for Canada he rarely  contributes much defensively and Miller will have to deal with Bailey whenever Davies pushes up and there's a Jamaica counter. The same can be said for Antonio v Vitoria or  a physical mismatch if Antonio goes wide left v AJ and Gray drifts in.  The other concern I have with that midfield is that as good as Staq is, he's not pacey and Oso is probably slower (NL vs USA). So we may have bodies in central mid  but can we keep up with their mids?  The only way we may be able to deal with that is if Davies and or Tajon play more defensively. If we can get a tie or keep Jamaica from scoring more that 1 goal, we should be in decent shape. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Kadenge

[Bigandy]

6 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I can't rememer if McGraw was hurt but if both of these two were seen as options, they would have been brought to Japan.

If a back four, it will be Vitoria with either Miller or Cornelius as his parther.  However, I am still betting on the usual back three.

Im torn. I think we may see cornelius in the middle away and vitoria in the middle at home. Or vice versa with them splitting the games. 

Away we will probably see a much more direct game which either means we need vitoria for aerially balls or we need cornelius for pace against the long ball.   

The longer i write and think about it, the more I think vitoria starts both...

[Watchmen]

On 10/30/2023 at 7:53 AM, Obinna said:

I actually considered this because it's likely the 3rd keeper spot so why not bring Sirois in? Would not be a slight against St. Clair in any way.

I don't think it would be a slight so much as a challenge - pick your game up. Because St Clair didn't have a great year.

[dyslexic nam]

At t to be end of the day, we need to go with the guy who is playing better.  And that has been Sirois over the balance of the year.  

[costarg]

17 hours ago, Bigandy said:

You could argue that we know 3atb works in concacaf and that the core player selection works. We won qualifying with it. 

We still used a back 4 quite a bit during WCQ, and I feel we were more successful when we did.  We only reverted to a fulltime back 3 in the later rounds and in the past 18 months.  I feel we weren't doing as well.  The performances the last 18 months are pretty telling, there is enough video out there now and they've all figured us out. 

Panama a team who we beat a few months ago has passed us in FIFA rankings.  We can't continue to think we're kings of CONCACAF and everything is going well.  It clearly is not going well, we have not looked good in a long time.

 

[InglewoodJack]

20 hours ago, Obinna said:

Wanted to dig into this part. 

When we played down there I don't think we looked good, but we had this as our starting line up on the day:

 

I don't think we rotate like this now. We will put out our strongest line up for both matches. Out of those who started that match two years ago we are likely to see only David, Davies and Johnston start, and maybe Cornelius.

 

Now, to be fair they never had their strongest line up either. They put this out:

 

@Shway is the most versed with Jamaica here, but I would guess that Bobby Reid, Andre Blake and maybe Shamar Nicholson will be the only players who will start from that line up. So you could say both teams will be very different. 

Can't wait to see how it all plays out.

Wow this is a nasty, nasty Canada lineup. Piette & MAK down the middle, Henry starting, Liam Millar as a striker (which I don’t necessarily hate tbh)… this is peak Herdman. Jamaica has a much better lineup now than then, but you gotta think there aren’t many players Jamaica can add to counter Eustaquio’s influence, and then you add Tajon, all the other missing starters, and I really like our chances. 

[Obinna]

33 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Wow this is a nasty, nasty Canada lineup. Piette & MAK down the middle, Henry starting, Liam Millar as a striker (which I don’t necessarily hate tbh)… this is peak Herdman. Jamaica has a much better lineup now than then, but you gotta think there aren’t many players Jamaica can add to counter Eustaquio’s influence, and then you add Tajon, all the other missing starters, and I really like our chances. 

Yeah I agree. On the surface it seems like we had a stronger 11 than Jamaica since it included Davies and David, but I am not sure who has the bigger weaknesses there, us with Doniel Henry and MAK, or them with JeVaughn Watson and Anthony Grant. None of those players will be around this time - barring some massive surprises - but another player who likely won't be around (who actually strikes me as a miss) is Kemar Roofe

@Shway what happened to this guy's Jamaica career? Is he just out of favour? I can see on transfermarkt he is still active with Rangers. Doesn't seem like he's played a ton - 6 SPL games 1 goal....plus some Europa and Cup games.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/kemar-roofe/leistungsdaten/spieler/141350

This guy I remember was their offensive threat when we played them down there, and he still has a very respectable strike rate of 26 goals in 50 games for Rangers since 2020. And he is just 30 years old. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemar_Roofe

Hasn't been called since 2021....did this guy stop being interested...or was the lack of interest mutual?

[Alex]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

We still used a back 4 quite a bit during WCQ, and I feel we were more successful when we did.  We only reverted to a fulltime back 3 in the later rounds and in the past 18 months.  I feel we weren't doing as well.  The performances the last 18 months are pretty telling, there is enough video out there now and they've all figured us out. 

Panama a team who we beat a few months ago has passed us in FIFA rankings.  We can't continue to think we're kings of CONCACAF and everything is going well.  It clearly is not going well, we have not looked good in a long time.

 

Why are a few people on here all of a sudden down on us? We looked bad (but decent for a few stretches) against a REALLY good Japanese team, we had a gold cup where 5 or 6 starters got their first caps, we handily defeated Honduras, curaçao and Panama prior to the gold cup with our full squads and lost to an American team that had everyone. 

[Obinna]

Just now, Alex said:

Why are a few people on here all of a sudden down on us? We looked bad (but decent for a few stretches) against a REALLY good Japanese team, we had a gold cup where 5 or 6 starters got their first caps, we handily defeated Honduras, curaçao and Panama prior to the gold cup with our full squads and lost to an American team that had everyone. 

I rewatched the 1st half the other night and after the first goal we had a lot of good stretches for a team that was without Eustaquio and Buchanan and just hadn't played together in a long time. We had a fair amount of posession and were able to get into some good spots on occassion, but Japan were very organized defensively and I don't expect to face that level of organization vs Jamaica. The extra gaps that will open are going to make life a lot easier for us.

[Shway]

15 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Yeah I agree. On the surface it seems like we had a stronger 11 than Jamaica since it included Davies and David, but I am not sure who has the bigger weaknesses there, us with Doniel Henry and MAK, or them with JeVaughn Watson and Anthony Grant. None of those players will be around this time - barring some massive surprises - but another player who likely won't be around (who actually strikes me as a miss) is Kemar Roofe

@Shway what happened to this guy's Jamaica career? Is he just out of favour? I can see on transfermarkt he is still active with Rangers. Doesn't seem like he's played a ton - 6 SPL games 1 goal....plus some Europa and Cup games.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/kemar-roofe/leistungsdaten/spieler/141350

This guy I remember was their offensive threat when we played them down there, and he still has a very respectable strike rate of 26 goals in 50 games for Rangers since 2020. And he is just 30 years old. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemar_Roofe

Hasn't been called since 2021....did this guy stop being interested...or was the lack of interest mutual?

He just hasn't been playing. He had a reoccurring knee injury and was out for the season last year, on top of being regularly injured before that one. They can't call him up if he hasn't been healthy. If he can return to his former form, I'm sure he could get a recall. I just think Hal is good with his two guys being Shamar and Michail.

The guy I'm more surprised about not seeing more often is Jamal Lowe.

[costarg]

9 minutes ago, Alex said:

Why are a few people on here all of a sudden down on us? We looked bad (but decent for a few stretches) against a REALLY good Japanese team, we had a gold cup where 5 or 6 starters got their first caps, we handily defeated Honduras, curaçao and Panama prior to the gold cup with our full squads and lost to an American team that had everyone. 

I hope you're right.  I'm rooting for your take as opposed to what I'm seeing.  I just call it as I see it.

 

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

We still used a back 4 quite a bit during WCQ, and I feel we were more successful when we did.  We only reverted to a fulltime back 3 in the later rounds and in the past 18 months.  I feel we weren't doing as well.  The performances the last 18 months are pretty telling, there is enough video out there now and they've all figured us out. 

Panama a team who we beat a few months ago has passed us in FIFA rankings.  We can't continue to think we're kings of CONCACAF and everything is going well.  It clearly is not going well, we have not looked good in a long time.

 

This is a bit "chicken little". 

Weve performed exactly to expectations IMO. We win the winnable games and lose against better teams. the reason is not because of 3atb or 4atb, its because these other teams are substantially better than us. 

As for being figured out, I think its telling that everyone knows we like to counter with speed and cant break down low blocks. Again, I dont see 3 or 4 atb being the reason to change this. Davies and buchanan are fast and work well with space. If we play 4 atb, its not like the all of the sudden become players who find pockets of space and play higher quality through balls.  

I dont mind going to a back 4 but i disagree with the doom and gloom vibes, and I disagree that the reason for the "doom and gloom" vibes are 3 atb. yes we have challenges but 4 atb (or 3 atb) is not the solution to breaking down a low block, being poor at defending long ball counters, having a lack of creative midfielders or our lack of quality CB's and depth CM's. 

[InglewoodJack]

56 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Yeah I agree. On the surface it seems like we had a stronger 11 than Jamaica since it included Davies and David, but I am not sure who has the bigger weaknesses there, us with Doniel Henry and MAK, or them with JeVaughn Watson and Anthony Grant. None of those players will be around this time - barring some massive surprises - but another player who likely won't be around (who actually strikes me as a miss) is Kemar Roofe

@Shway what happened to this guy's Jamaica career? Is he just out of favour? I can see on transfermarkt he is still active with Rangers. Doesn't seem like he's played a ton - 6 SPL games 1 goal....plus some Europa and Cup games.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/kemar-roofe/leistungsdaten/spieler/141350

This guy I remember was their offensive threat when we played them down there, and he still has a very respectable strike rate of 26 goals in 50 games for Rangers since 2020. And he is just 30 years old. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemar_Roofe

Hasn't been called since 2021....did this guy stop being interested...or was the lack of interest mutual?

Plus, with Jamaica, *knock on wood* but has this supposed super squad with all these premier league players coming together actually led to anything yet? I feel like we keep hearing about how Jamaica came out of nowhere with this amazing squad, but other than draws against Mexico and the US (no small feat obviously), but since then, they got smacked by Mexico, drew Haiti, beat Grenada, then beat Haiti. You add our best guys, you give us home field advantage, and again, knock on wood, but how are people not seeing us as the (one last time, knock on wood) overwhelming favourite here? We haven't seen Canada's best lineup in some time now. I guess a lot of our players aren't playing too well right now, and maybe JD and Larin will put up a stinker, but I really like our chances here.