Opponent watch: Jamaica

[harrycoyster]

9 minutes ago, Shway said:

mind you this was USA A+ squad, and Jamaica’s B- squad.

 

Wouldn't say this was the USA A+ squad given there was no Weah, McKennie or Adams. That's three likely starters. 

[Kadenge]

9 minutes ago, Shway said:

Their two GC teams that went to back to back finals - were completely different.... the first under Schaffer had Garrath Mccleary, Wes Morgan, Michael Hector, Jobi Mcanuff, Adrian Marriappa, Simon Dawkins, Joel Grant, and Giles Barnes.

Then the following iteration half those guys weren’t there when Whitmore (current manager) wanted more of a local based squad.

He’s been on record of saying that he gave the local players a chance. And considering their league is down since the start of last year due to Covid, it’s all the more reason.

So while I understand it may irk some players, it will only look really bad if guys like Bailey, Blake aren’t in the squad. Or guys like Nicholson and or Norman Campbell are held back/hindered. 

So the Brit contingent you named  was on the 2015 GC squad? 

[TOCanada115]

That Dest kid is a problem. 
 

I remember him against Canada in the rematch against the states in November 2019. His first match for the States, and completely owned Davies on that side. 
 

They have a special player there. 

[Dominic94]

2 hours ago, TOCanada115 said:

That Dest kid is a problem. 
 

I remember him against Canada in the rematch against the states in November 2019. His first match for the States, and completely owned Davies on that side. 
 

They have a special player there. 

If only Holland had called him first 

[costarg]

5 hours ago, Ivan said:

Does this type of shit not leave a bad taste in anyone else's mouth?  I mean Jamaica and Surinam have basically built NTs of guys who will step foot in their countries for the first time when the teams play their first home game. 

Doesn't so much leave a bad taste in the mouth as much as make me question what Jamaica is doing so well to attract these guys vs Canada who can't attract the dual or tri-nationals.  

Perhaps the Jamaica soccer fed doesn't have to compete for money with atom hockey tournaments like the CSA has to?

[An Observer]

8 minutes ago, costarg said:

Doesn't so much leave a bad taste in the mouth as much as make me question what Jamaica is doing so well to attract these guys vs Canada who can't attract the dual or tri-nationals.  

Perhaps the Jamaica soccer fed doesn't have to compete for money with atom hockey tournaments like the CSA has to?

It’s because the other option for the Jamaica players is England and they are not good enough to play for them; our duals have options where they are good enough to make the other side and frequently that side is better than us 

[Kent]

19 hours ago, Ivan said:

Does this type of shit not leave a bad taste in anyone else's mouth?  I mean Jamaica and Surinam have basically built NTs of guys who will step foot in their countries for the first time when the teams play their first home game.  I know we have a couple of those as well (Arfield, Weatherspoon), and the Americans sure have more than their fair share.

I mean, yes, raising the standard of play in Concacaf is great and all, but what some of these countries have done to do so, in my opinion, is absolutely ridiculous. 

I think it's fair. Jamaica is a poor country, and as such, people don't move in there, they move out of there. Canada is a rich country, and as such, people move in here, they don't move out (oversimplifying, but more people come in than leave in Canada, and the opposite is true of Jamaica and other poor countries). England as a rich country has it's chance to benefit from the migration of Jamaican's to their country, but Jamaica still has their shot as well. I don't get bothered, it is what it is. A huge number of players on our team either have never lived in Canada, weren't born in Canada, or didn't get their first pro contract in Canada. By my count only 5 players from the current 24 player group were born in Canada and had their first pro contract in Canada (I'm counting Kaye in that 5, who I believe went on loan in Wilmington before playing for TFC II).

[Ruffian]

13 hours ago, costarg said:

 vs Canada who can't attract the dual or tri-nationals. 

Stephen Eustáquio, Dayne St. Clair, Milan Borjan, Sam Adekugbe, Steven Vitória, Cristián Gutiérrez, Ricardo Ferreira, David Wotherspoon, Theo Corbeanu, Junior Hoilett, Lucas Cavallini, Alphonso Davies, Liam Millar, Tesho Akindele, Scott Arfield and Jonathan David are all dual nationals we have attracted.

[costarg]

16 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

Stephen Eustáquio, Dayne St. Clair, Milan Borjan, Sam Adekugbe, Steven Vitória, Cristián Gutiérrez, Ricardo Ferreira, David Wotherspoon, Theo Corbeanu, Junior Hoilett, Lucas Cavallini, Alphonso Davies, Liam Millar, Tesho Akindele, Scott Arfield and Jonathan David are all dual nationals we have attracted.

 

Apples and oranges dude.  These guys all committed in the past ~5-6 years.  Jamaica have added 8 important players in one Intl window. 

 

[Ivan]

17 minutes ago, Kent said:

I think it's fair. Jamaica is a poor country, and as such, people don't move in there, they move out of there. Canada is a rich country, and as such, people move in here, they don't move out (oversimplifying, but more people come in than leave in Canada, and the opposite is true of Jamaica and other poor countries). England as a rich country has it's chance to benefit from the migration of Jamaican's to their country, but Jamaica still has their shot as well. I don't get bothered, it is what it is. A huge number of players on our team either have never lived in Canada, weren't born in Canada, or didn't get their first pro contract in Canada. By my count only 5 players from the current 24 player group were born in Canada and had their first pro contract in Canada (I'm counting Kaye in that 5, who I believe went on loan in Wilmington before playing for TFC II).

If by fair you mean by the rules, then yes I agree.  It still doesn't pass the smell test for me that their (basically) entire teams are made up of English and Dutch B players.

Other than Wotherspoon of our 24, each of the other 23 spent a significant portion of their lives in Canada.  Hardly qualifies as a comparison to what some other countries are doing. 

[Ruffian]

1 minute ago, costarg said:

 

Apples and oranges dude.  These guys all committed in the past ~5-6 years.  Jamaica have added 8 important players in one Intl window. 

 

A player who committed recently compared to a player who committed 5 years ago are not apples to oranges. They are players who can contribute to our team quality. I don't see how apples to oranges applies here. Especially since I just listed almost our entire senior roster.

[Shway]

2 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

A player who committed recently compared to a player who committed 5 years ago are not apples to oranges. They are players who can contribute to our team quality. I don't see how apples to oranges applies here. Especially since I just listed almost our entire senior roster.

I think he’s just referring to the frequency/ quantity as the vs.

[SpecialK]

Just imagine though if the JFF wasn’t filled with corrupt idiots and actually cared about their players. Incompetent old idiots the CSA  vs corrupt idiots JFF 

[Shway]

9 minutes ago, Ivan said:

If by fair you mean by the rules, then yes I agree.  It still doesn't pass the smell test for me that their (basically) entire teams are made up of English and Dutch B players.

Other than Wotherspoon of our 24, each of the other 23 spent a significant portion of their lives in Canada.  Hardly qualifies as a comparison to what some other countries are doing. 

I definitely hear you...I feel that same way about our captain Arfield. However I do understand the benefit where it is an opportunity to bring money to the country’s football program. 

But also the reality is, Jamaica had several players missing who would be in that team that were born in Jamaica...but again, are disputing because of player fees.

Bailey, Johnson, Lawrence, and Nicholson to name a few who I think we still in the squad. 

The English born players CANT have that sentiment because they didn’t join the program for financial benefits, so it would be very problematic.
 

[ghostknownunknown]

29 minutes ago, costarg said:

 

Apples and oranges dude.  These guys all committed in the past ~5-6 years.  Jamaica have added 8 important players in one Intl window. 

 

We have 5 players in this camp who are uncapped dual-nationals; St. Clair, Gutierrez, Ferreira, Sturing, and Corbeanu(now capped). And they all committed over the past year. Im not sure what your angle is but you're clearly blowing this out of proportion. 

[costarg]

32 minutes ago, ghostknownunknown said:

We have 5 players in this camp who are uncapped dual-nationals; St. Clair, Gutierrez, Ferreira, Sturing, and Corbeanu(now capped). And they all committed over the past year. Im not sure what your angle is but you're clearly blowing this out of proportion. 

With a choice, who would you rather?  Tomori or Guti, Ferreira & Sturing?

We also lost Yankov this year.

Jury is still out on Flores, Akinola, Mitrovic, Kadioglu..... capping a few of them would help convince me.

 

[ghostknownunknown]

40 minutes ago, costarg said:

With a choice, who would you rather?  Tomori or Guti, Ferreira & Sturing?

We also lost Yankov this year.

Jury is still out on Flores, Akinola, Mitrovic, Kadioglu..... capping a few of them would help convince me.

 

I was simply addressing the misinformation in your post. The Tomori ship has sailed, people need to move on. IMO both he and Yankov made stupid impulsive decisions regarding their national team allegiances, and will live to regret it. Best of luck to the both of them but I don't see Tomori getting minutes in major tournament,  and I don't see Bulgaria reaching the Euros or World Cup anytime soon. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by ghostknownunknown

[costarg]

2 minutes ago, ghostknownunknown said:

I was simply addressing the misinformation in your post. I have no interest in conjecture and time travel. The Tomori ship has sailed, people need to move on. IMO both he and Yankov made stupid impulsive decisions regarding their national team allegiances, and will live to regret it. Best of luck to the both of them but I don't see Tomori getting minutes in major tournament,  and I don't see Bulgaria reaching the Euros or World Cup anytime soon. 

It's not misinformation, It's facts.  We got some and lost some.  Jamaica is doing a great job in recruiting their invites.  I just want to see us win more!  Is that bad?

You listed who we successfully capped.  I listed who we lost and who Jamaica managed to cap.  We got about 16 duals in about 6 years.  They got 8 in one window.  

I want to see Canada succeed, I think you want the same.  No worries man, we're on the same team.

[ghostknownunknown]

3 minutes ago, costarg said:

It's not misinformation, It's facts.  We got some and lost some.  Jamaica is doing a great job in recruiting their invites.  I just want to see us win more!  Is that bad?

You listed who we successfully capped.  I listed who we lost and who Jamaica managed to cap.  We got about 16 duals in about 6 years.  They got 8 in one window.  

I want to see Canada succeed, I think you want the same.  No worries man, we're on the same team.

The fact is they got 8 in one window, and we got 5 in the same window, just wanted to point that out. 

While it is impressive that they're bringing in that many duals that are playing at a good level, its an impossible ask for them to keep up that level of recruitment and it doesn't strike me a sustainable method for building the strength of a national team. 

[Shway]

2 hours ago, ghostknownunknown said:

The fact is they got 8 in one window, and we got 5 in the same window, just wanted to point that out. 

While it is impressive that they're bringing in that many duals that are playing at a good level, its an impossible ask for them to keep up that level of recruitment and it doesn't strike me a sustainable method for building the strength of a national team. 

8 in this one, 5 in the previous one, and have about 5+ more coming.

This difference of why its apples vs oranges for me is because Jamaica very rarely "loses" a player. It was John Barnes before, and 20 years later it's Raheem Sterling. We have, an ever running list of lost players, that can sometimes be balanced by the ones gained. Ferreira < Tomori. Corbeanu > Yankov. Arfield < Jono. 

My only thing I envy about Jamaica is that they turn over every stone, and knock on every door. From 2019 to now I read that 55+ guys have made an appearance for their national team.

That's crazy. 

They may be lacking in cohesion or familiarity but with the coming windows, and the gold cup to iron out the kinks...come September against Mexico it will be very interesting to see how they do.

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

8 in this one, 5 in the previous one, and have about 5+ more coming.

This difference of why its apples vs oranges for me is because Jamaica very rarely "loses" a player. It was John Barnes before, and 20 years later it's Raheem Sterling. We have, an ever running list of lost players, that can sometimes be balanced by the ones gained. Ferreira < Tomori. Corbeanu > Yankov. Arfield < Jono. 

My only thing I envy about Jamaica is that they turn over every stone, and knock on every door. From 2019 to now I read that 55+ guys have made an appearance for their national team.

That's crazy. 

They may be lacking in cohesion or familiarity but with the coming windows, and the gold cup to iron out the kinks...come September against Mexico it will be very interesting to see how they do.

 

Rolando Aarons was born and partially raised in Jamaica and chose England as well. 

What is your definition of 'losing a player'? Do you want players to only be eligible for countries they grow up in? Where does that leave players like Odunze who spent years living in 3 difference countries? I assume you don't want to go by birth country as we'd lose a number of players.

 

The current system is completely fine and the concept of 'losing players' is sour grapes. 

 

 

[SpecialK]

I would like to see FIFA move the one time switch to older or too inactive players. For example If Cristante hasn’t played for Italy in like 1-2 years he would be Eligible for a one time switch

Edited March 26, 2021 by SpecialK

[yomurphy1]

1 minute ago, SpecialK said:

I would like to see FIFA move the one time switch to older or too inactive players. For example If Cristante hasn’t played for Italy in like 1-2 years he would be Eligible for a one time switch

Naw... I think the system is pretty permissive now. Too many options makes for too many question marks and becomes like club football. Make a decision and stick with it for better or worse.

[SpecialK]

4 minutes ago, yomurphy1 said:

Naw... I think the system is pretty permissive now. Too many options makes for too many question marks and becomes like club football. Make a decision and stick with it for better or worse.

If they tightened up the rules a little bit though like that stupid rule, if a player stays in that country for a certain mount of time and gets a citizenship to that Country is eligible to play for that country. Like Tomoir is Only eligible for England because he lived there playing soccer. Also if they gave people that one time switch it would force teams to play More games or have the fear of loosing players. 

Edited March 26, 2021 by SpecialK

[Norrin Radd]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

This difference of why its apples vs oranges for me is because Jamaica very rarely "loses" a player. It was John Barnes before, and 20 years later it's Raheem Sterling.

They were after Hoilett and Simeon Jackson and they lost both to us. Bradley Wright-Phillips chose to forgo an international career rather then play for them. It seems that every cycle they get less than half the players they are targeting to enlist. They've done much better this time around but their success rate has not been spotless.