Opponent watch: Jamaica

[Kent]

The thing is, nationality is not remotely binary. There is a crazy spectrum, so rules have to be put into place. There is not one definitive obviously best set of rules to go by. It's all just mostly arbitrary lines in the sand and not worth getting upset about. You may want a certain rule change to benefit your team today that ends up burning you tomorrow. @harrycoyster made a good point. Do you go by place of birth? Where they were professionally trained, if so, how many years counts? What if they played 10 years of amateur youth soccer in one country than 1 year with a pro academy somewhere else? What if those numbers are 9 and 2? Or 8 and 2 and 1? Where they "grew up"? What age matters? Where they lived when they were 12? 15? Where they spent at least 3 years? You could come up with endless criteria, and the only criteria that could be definitive is place of birth, but even that doesn't make sense. If someone happens to be born in a country by accident, then grow up from 5 days old to becoming pro in another country, should they really be playing for the country they were born in? They definitely weren't learning how to play soccer the day they were born.

So like I said, it's all just lines in the sand. If there was a requirement that you have to have lived in a country maybe you just get more situations like Doneil Henry's transfer to Cyprus. Rent an apartment for a week and boom, you can play for the national team.

So the rules are fine in my opinion. Just accept them and move on. Hope we get the difference makers.

[Pottsy3]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

 

Rolando Aarons was born and partially raised in Jamaica and chose England as well. 

What is your definition of 'losing a player'? Do you want players to only be eligible for countries they grow up in? Where does that leave players like Odunze who spent years living in 3 difference countries? I assume you don't want to go by birth country as we'd lose a number of players.

 

The current system is completely fine and the concept of 'losing players' is sour grapes. 

 

 

Been a long time since I've seen your username floating around. Might be my own absence... but if not, welcome back! Have always appreciated your commentary.

I agree with your comment 100%. We win some, we lose some. It's unfortunate that someone like Kofi Opare was never able to represent our country, but the definition is loose enough to prove some leeway yet strict enough to ensure it's not over-manipulated.

[The Real Marc]

Kent is bang on. And to boot we're not in a  place to be casting aspersions on Jamaica and their recruitment drive. Those players likely have a much stronger connection to Jamaica than Arfield or Wotherspoon have to Canada. (And Arfield, former captain, didn’t even show!) 

We are the country of Bircham, Valentine, De Jong, Gutierrez, Frank Sturing, Eustaquio, Tony Menezes, Leutwiler, Will Johnson, Pacheco, Issey, Greg Sutton, Richard Hastings, Canizalez...we could keep going but all these guys could be seen as having tenuous links to us.

And let's not even talk about Ferreira and Vitoria.

Edited March 27, 2021 by The Real Marc

[Shway]

6 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

 

Rolando Aarons was born and partially raised in Jamaica and chose England as well. 

What is your definition of 'losing a player'? Do you want players to only be eligible for countries they grow up in? Where does that leave players like Odunze who spent years living in 3 difference countries? I assume you don't want to go by birth country as we'd lose a number of players.

 

The current system is completely fine and the concept of 'losing players' is sour grapes. 

....Rolando Aarons is one of the guys apparently mentioned in joining the squad. He did not choose England - nor did England choose home. 
 

I thought the quotes was good enough when I said “loses” - it’s not to be taken literal. But the rest is a rabbit hole that I made no mention of or reference too. I had to reread what I said that led to that. 

 

[Shway]

the glitch happened to me

Edited March 27, 2021 by Shway

[Shway]

Yea

Edited March 27, 2021 by Shway

[Ivan]

10 hours ago, The Real Marc said:

Kent is bang on. And to boot we're not in a  place to be casting aspersions on Jamaica and their recruitment drive. Those players likely have a much stronger connection to Jamaica than Arfield or Wotherspoon have to Canada. (And Arfield, former captain, didn’t even show!) 

We are the country of Bircham, Valentine, De Jong, Gutierrez, Frank Sturing, Eustaquio, Tony Menezes, Leutwiler, Will Johnson, Pacheco, Issey, Greg Sutton, Richard Hastings, Canizalez...we could keep going but all these guys could be seen as having tenuous links to us.

And let's not even talk about Ferreira and Vitoria.

I don't get it.

How do any of those Jamaican callups  have a much stronger connection than Arfield or Wotherspoon or Sturing?.  They are all in the same category FFS. None have stepped foot in the respective countries prior to their first home game.

And please don't add Estaquio to that group.  He was born here and lived here until he was 7 or 8.  Even DeJong, Gutierrez, Johnson were all born here and lived here for a spell.

And what's with adding Ferreira and Vitoria? Two guys born and raised here until they left to play soccer in Portugal at 16/17?  Seriously?

Look, I am okay with the rules of nationality.  It's just when a nation basically builds the vast majority of their team on the backs of these tenuous connections that bothers me.  Jamaica produces many really good players themselves (Bailey, Nicholson to name two).  I can see bolstering their squad for sure, but adding 20-30 guys?  And people going off on here about how great they are?   Bullshit, I hope we fucking kick their ass.

 

[The Real Marc]

8 hours ago, Ivan said:

I don't get it.

How do any of those Jamaican callups  have a much stronger connection than Arfield or Wotherspoon or Sturing?.  They are all in the same category FFS. None have stepped foot in the respective countries prior to their first home game.

And please don't add Estaquio to that group.  He was born here and lived here until he was 7 or 8.  Even DeJong, Gutierrez, Johnson were all born here and lived here for a spell.

And what's with adding Ferreira and Vitoria? Two guys born and raised here until they left to play soccer in Portugal at 16/17?  Seriously?

Look, I am okay with the rules of nationality.  It's just when a nation basically builds the vast majority of their team on the backs of these tenuous connections that bothers me.  Jamaica produces many really good players themselves (Bailey, Nicholson to name two).  I can see bolstering their squad for sure, but adding 20-30 guys?  And people going off on here about how great they are?   Bullshit, I hope we fucking kick their ass.

No problem, I'll explain it to you.

For Arfield and Wotherspoon: I'd bet my house that most of those guys getting called up by Jamaica probably felt their parents's Jamaican background was a notable part of their upbringing, if not something that directly contributed to or defined their identity. Whereas I'm think it is likely that Scott "Getting called by Scotland would be the pinnacle of my career" Arfield and David "Didn't cross my mind until Arfield asked me" Wotherspoon had their Canadian-born parent as a neat factoid but minimal (to non-existent) part of their identity.

Don't me wrong - welcome both! I'm glad they chose us. But were they learning about beavers and eating peameal and worshiping peace order and good government and thanking Tommy Douglas growing up? Yeah no. I'm joking but seriously - let's not pretend their attachment to us is anything like those sons of Jamaican immigrants that are now choosing Jamaica.

As for the others, that's exactly my point. And I think Kent's too. Why is being born here the standard? Or living here as a young kid? Where is the line? 13 years? 7? 5? 3? One month? It's completely arbitrary. Eustaquio has lived in Portugal for 2/3 more than he has in Canada. When guys do the opposite move here from Europe and spend the majority of their lives here only to choose their place of birth, we go apoplectic.

As for Ferreira and Vitoria, these two actively rejected us to play for another country (multiple times), (one of them captaining the other country, at the U20WC, in Toronto!) and then only accepted us when their preference didn't pan out (or, for the latter, when their career was on the ropes.) I've been around long enough to know that Canadian soccer can't afford self-respect but ... yikes.

We've called a host whole of guys with debateable-to-iffy-to-sketchy connections to Canada that are mainly looking to advance their careers when their better option was no longer an option. We can argue birth locales and years of residency, sure, whatever, but the point is this - we can't get too high-minded with Jamaica right now.

We've been doing this for decades - we just have fewer emigrants.

Edited March 27, 2021 by The Real Marc

[Ivan]

5 hours ago, The Real Marc said:

No problem, I'll explain it to you.

For Arfield and Wotherspoon: I'd bet my house that most of those guys getting called up by Jamaica probably felt their parents's Jamaican background was a notable part of their upbringing, if not something that directly contributed to or defined their identity. Whereas I'm think it is likely that Scott "Getting called by Scotland would be the pinnacle of my career" Arfield and David "Didn't cross my mind until Arfield asked me" Wotherspoon had their Canadian-born parent as a neat factoid but minimal (to non-existent) part of their identity.

Don't me wrong - welcome both! I'm glad they chose us. But were they learning about beavers and eating peameal and worshiping peace order and good government and thanking Tommy Douglas growing up? Yeah no. I'm joking but seriously - let's not pretend their attachment to us is anything like those sons of Jamaican immigrants that are now choosing Jamaica.

As for the others, that's exactly my point. And I think Kent's too. Why is being born here the standard? Or living here as a young kid? Where is the line? 13 years? 7? 5? 3? One month? It's completely arbitrary. Eustaquio has lived in Portugal for 2/3 more than he has in Canada. When guys do the opposite move here from Europe and spend the majority of their lives here only to choose their place of birth, we go apoplectic.

As for Ferreira and Vitoria, these two actively rejected us to play for another country (multiple times), (one of them captaining the other country, at the U20WC, in Toronto!) and then only accepted us when their preference didn't pan out (or, for the latter, when their career was on the ropes.) I've been around long enough to know that Canadian soccer can't afford self-respect but ... yikes.

We've called a host whole of guys with debateable-to-iffy-to-sketchy connections to Canada that are mainly looking to advance their careers when their better option was no longer an option. We can argue birth locales and years of residency, sure, whatever, but the point is this - we can't get too high-minded with Jamaica right now.

We've been doing this for decades - we just have fewer emigrants.

Okay Marc, I get your point.

In fairness though, you don't actually know how any of those players were raised, even though you would bet your house on it.  Sturing for example, talked about how proud his father and grandfather were that he is playing for Canada.  Does that make him equal to the British B team wearing green and yellow? And in all honesty, Wotherspoon and Sturing aren't going to see our top 23 when we have everyone healthy. And it this point, we have enough in midfield where it doesn't matter if Arfield comes back.

I don't think there is any standard for how long a player has lived in his home country.  My point is that the vast majority of our players have much more than a tenuous tie to our country, either born here, raised here, or both.  The Arfields, Wotherspoons and Sturings are few and far between.  Although I will say I would have welcomed Tomori (born here) and Cristante (tenuous).

And we were both on this board when Vitoria's sister was on here vilifying us for not hailing her brother as a conquering hero when he played in Toronto for Portugal. If you noticed, he is never in any of my best elevens. But, they were both born and raised here and can't be compared to what Jamaica is doing.

I get what you are saying, what Jamaica is doing is completely within the rules. I'm just saying it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I won't respect them. 

[SpecialK]

I believe Arfield’s dad was pushing him to play for Canada. I remember reading something like that in a interview he did. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by SpecialK

[Shway]

On 3/27/2021 at 7:50 AM, Ivan said:

I don't get it.

How do any of those Jamaican callups  have a much stronger connection than Arfield or Wotherspoon or Sturing?.  They are all in the same category FFS. None have stepped foot in the respective countries prior to their first home game.

And please don't add Estaquio to that group.  He was born here and lived here until he was 7 or 8.  Even DeJong, Gutierrez, Johnson were all born here and lived here for a spell.

And what's with adding Ferreira and Vitoria? Two guys born and raised here until they left to play soccer in Portugal at 16/17?  Seriously?

Look, I am okay with the rules of nationality.  It's just when a nation basically builds the vast majority of their team on the backs of these tenuous connections that bothers me.  Jamaica produces many really good players themselves (Bailey, Nicholson to name two).  I can see bolstering their squad for sure, but adding 20-30 guys?  And people going off on here about how great they are?   Bullshit, I hope we fucking kick their ass.

 

Culture and overall up-bring is what I've said this before. You're born English but at home you were brought up on Jamaican culture, values, and sayings. 

I can guarantee each of those guys have had jerk chicken, ackee & saltfish for breakfast with fried dumplings.(Jamaican national dish).....Has Scott Arfield had a poutine?

Small reference....but I'm 100% sure there's things that each of those guys can connect to Jamaica with....Arfield, based on his interviews - I'll say it's highly likely that there isn't anything other than his dad.

Again, I don't want to sound ungrateful for Arfield - I'm just trying to balance the perspectives.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Shway

[PopePouri]

8 hours ago, Shway said:

Culture and overall up-bring is what I've said this before. You're born English but at home you were brought up on Jamaican culture, values, and sayings. 

I can guarantee each of those guys have had jerk chicken, ackee & saltfish for breakfast with fried dumplings.(Jamaican national dish).....Has Scott Arfield had a poutine?

Small reference....but I'm 100% sure there's things that each of those guys can connect to Jamaica with....Arfield, based on his interviews - I'll say it's highly likely that there isn't anything other than his mom.

Again, I don't want to sound ungrateful for Arfield - I'm just trying to balance the perspectives.

I beg to differ. He's a white dude from the Commonwealth. We all enjoy Counting Crows, Tom Hanks movies and spiceless food.

[CanadaFan123]

Rohan ricketts on OneSoccer explaining how Jamaican players essentially tried to extort money out of their FA. Seems not much has changed.

[One American]

It's not clear at this point, but this thing seems to be going sideways. 

[Shway]

3 hours ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Rohan ricketts on OneSoccer explaining how Jamaican players essentially tried to extort money out of their FA. Seems not much has changed.

I think this is an opinion and nothing more.
The JFF is a known corrupt organization, so i's right to question where are the funds going. They don't even have an official website.

[CanadaFan123]

33 minutes ago, Shway said:

I think this is an opinion and nothing more.
The JFF is a known corrupt organization, so i's right to question where are the funds going. They don't even have an official website.

It wasn’t an opinion - he was there. It was a first hand experience. 

[Shway]

1 minute ago, CanadaFan123 said:

It wasn’t an opinion - he was there. It was a first hand experience. 

I guess I gotta listen to the segment...when was he with Jamaica?

[CanadaFan123]

5 minutes ago, Shway said:

I guess I gotta listen to the segment...when was he with Jamaica?

Yes. Essentially players pulled him aside when he got there and demanded a meeting with the Jamaican fa for $10k each before they played Ghana in a friendly. Ricketts didn’t even know they were getting paid. The fa offered $3k each and the players balked. 

[Shway]

I feel something special will happen tonight. 
A lot of surprise win this international break. 

+1100 for Canada to win tho.

[VinceA]

The current dispute is players want 7k USD per WCQ, which I think not even the US or Mexico pays their players.

 

JFF offered 2 or 3k (I've seen both) and the players balked. Now there's opinions on both sides and bad faith arguments but for me I feel the players are being tone deaf considering it is a pandemic and Jamaica isn't loaded with cash.

At some point you figure the public will turn on the players though. Not playing for your country because you want more money (especially as a Jamaican-born and raised player) while English imports are happily accepting the call-ups is a terrible look. 

[Corazon]

Michael Antonio's hamstrings right on cue!