Herdman new head coach

[Guest Tg11]

If he qualifies for the 2019 Gold Cup then that will be enough for him to show that he is a capable manager. However, results at the end of the day matter. If he gets us to the quarters then that is at least a realistic expectation given how young our squad is. I mean with a young team we can't even realistically be expected to go far like the semis or even the Final much less win it all. I mean we have a talented player pool as far as depth of young guys who we already have not just in our squad but all around other leagues too but also dual nationals who we can recruit as well. However, after all of that can that be enough to get us past teams like Jamaica, Honduras, Panama, United States, Trinidad & Tobago, etc.? The talent differential you also have to take that into consideration too.

[Gian-Luca]

6 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

I'm already tired of this studio panel of Brits TSN is using.  . 

With the international feed pbp, I least I get my wish of only one person in the booth calling the match.  You can certainly argue about the abilities of those calling the play, but at least you don't get overwhelmed with a verbal barrage where the crew believes that they are getting paid by the word.

In my little circle of friends and family there have been a number of complaints and barbs about the fact that it seems to be a 5 person team of Brits-only. The only non Brit they occasionally bring in - as a co-host - is Andi Petrillo. Can't they at least bring Dunfield in just to get a slightly different perspective/voice out there?

[Bison44]

16 minutes ago, Tg11 said:

If he qualifies for the 2019 Gold Cup then that will be enough for him to show that he is a capable manager. However, results at the end of the day matter. If he gets us to the quarters then that is at least a realistic expectation given how young our squad is. I mean with a young team we can't even realistically be expected to go far like the semis or even the Final much less win it all. I mean we have a talented player pool as far as depth of young guys who we already have not just in our squad but all around other leagues too but also dual nationals who we can recruit as well. However, after all of that can that be enough to get us past teams like Jamaica, Honduras, Panama, United States, Trinidad & Tobago, etc.? The talent differential you also have to take that into consideration too.

Rmemeber, Zambrano got us to the quarter finals last summer and some said that was a subpar effort and it was part of the reason he was fired.  What will the expectation be for Herdman and the team in 2019?  Davies will be a much better player (more experienced) in 2019. Same with Cavallini, Piette, MA Kaye, AJH and Larin if they continue to get playing time.  I would argue that Herdman will almost have to do more the the QF to get a "A or B" rating from the CSA.  

[Guest Tg11]

4 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

In my little circle of friends and family there have been a number of complaints and barbs about the fact that it seems to be a 5 person team of Brits-only. The only non Brit they occasionally bring in - as a co-host - is Andi Petrillo. Can't they at least bring Dunfield in just to get a slightly different perspective/voice out there?

What is the problem with a Brits only panel? I mean what is so bad about that? I mean I don't know about you but I love the Brit panel. Their emphasis or analysis on games is what makes the FIFA World Cup and it always has been. So why should 2026 be any different?

[Guest Tg11]

1 minute ago, Bison44 said:

Rmemeber, Zambrano got us to the quarter finals last summer and some said that was a subpar effort and it was part of the reason he was fired.  What will the expectation be for Herdman and the team in 2019?  Davies will be a much better player (more experienced) in 2019. Same with Cavallini, Piette, MA Kaye, AJH and Larin if they continue to get playing time.  I would argue that Herdman will almost have to do more the the QF to get a "A or B" rating from the CSA.  

Yeah Davies will be more experienced and same with all the other guys but at the same time they have to get by the other teams in CONCACAF. The talent differential separates Canada from them in the sense that Canada right now can't realistically beat USA, Mexico, Jamaica, Honduras, Panama, Costa Rica, etc.

Yeah for me I say QF is realistic but if by some miracle we can get to the SF or even the Final then that truly would be an accomplishment.

[Bison44]

1 minute ago, Tg11 said:

What is the problem with a Brits only panel? I mean what is so bad about that? I mean I don't know about you but I love the Brit panel. Their emphasis or analysis on games is what makes the FIFA World Cup and it always has been. So why should 2026 be any different?

The problem is we have plenty of CDN that can talk tactics and analysis a game.  Its not 1975 and the only person we trust to tell us about soccer has to have a british accent.  I've seen Brennan and Pesch at the desk...why bring in Robinson??  They could have boosted the CPL brand by having someone involved with the league on the panel.  

[Gian-Luca]

4 minutes ago, Tg11 said:

What is the problem with a Brits only panel? I mean what is so bad about that? I mean I don't know about you but I love the Brit panel. Their emphasis or analysis on games is what makes the FIFA World Cup and it always has been. So why should 2026 be any different?

A Brits-only panel would be fine - in Britain. But we're in Canada so it seems a bit strange in this day and age, as though we're back in the 1880's and they are the only ones who know anything about the game in this country. There has always been a heavy British presence in the English language World Cup coverage as far back as I can remember (I am too young to have seen the 1974 World Cup and can't recall anything about the broadcasters in 1978 - although I think only the final, 3rd place & maybe 2nd round games were shown here, I can recall being baby-sat as a 6 year old at my grandparents as my father and uncles drove downtown to watch Italy beat Argentina in the 1st round of the 1978 World Cup on the big screen at Maple Leaf Gardens on closed-circuit television). While this is understandable to some degree, its never been exclusively British until now.

To give a potted history, CBC's coverage in 1982 and 1986 consisted of Steve Armitage & Graham Leggat with Ernie Afhaganis in the studio in 1982 while in 1986 it was the same duo handling some of the matches with Jeff Gowan (normally a horse-racing broadcaster but used for soccer because at least he had an English accent) and Sam Lenarduzzi doing the others with  Hockey Night in Canada's (and now TSN's CFL voice) Chris Cuthbert in the studio (which seems funny to recall these days). In 1990 for TSN it was Vic Rauter in the studio with Dick Howard (a Brit who came to Canada to play in the NASL and then played for Canada internationally) and Tommy "It was a Shambles! A Shambles of a game!" Docherty who had a thicker Scottish accent than Steven Caldwell does, with Graham Leggat actually at the World Cup. It was similar for 1994 except Docherty was replaced by Bob Lenarduzzi. I can't recall the 1998 TSN team except that I think Rauter, Howard were involved and Paul Romanuck (now of Sportsnet Hockey) was reporting from France. 2002 I can't recall either, except I do recall Vic Rauter calling Rivaldo "Revolting" when a Turkish player kicked the ball off his knees and he clutched at his face. 2006's coverage included Dick Howard and Craig Forrest (probably on Sportsnet by that point), 2010 also had Craig Forrest and for no apparent reason, another former Scottish player John Collins who only used the word "Pooooorrrrr!" as an adjective no matter how good the play was. Forrest was still involved in 2014 and I think Scott Russell was one of the hosts. So this is the first time we've had an all-Brit broadcast crew at a time when the game in Canada is becoming just that - more Canadianized and certainly in the Toronto area where TSN's studios are, more multicultural than just 1st generation Brits from Britain.

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Gian-Luca said:

To give a potted history, CBC's coverage in 1982 and 1986 consisted of Steve Armitage & Graham Leggat with Ernie Afhaganis in the studio in 1982 while in 1986 it was the same duo handling some of the matches with Jeff Gowan (normally a horse-racing broadcaster but used for soccer because at least he had an English accent) and Sam Lenarduzzi doing the others with  Hockey Night in Canada's (and now TSN's CFL voice) Chris Cuthbert in the studio (which seems funny to recall these days). In 1990 for TSN it was Vic Rauter in the studio with Dick Howard (a Brit who came to Canada to play in the NASL and then played for Canada internationally) and Tommy "It was a Shambles! A Shambles of a game!" Docherty who had a thicker Scottish accent than Steven Caldwell does, with Graham Leggat actually at the World Cup. It was similar for 1994 except Docherty was replaced by Bob Lenarduzzi.

First, don't forget Sir Stanley Matthews in the studio in 82 and this great response:

Ernie:  Sir Stanley, Spain are down a goal to West Germany at the half.  What must they do in the second half?

Sir Stanley:  They must score two goals.

And second, the Doc was a pretty witty guy and quite entertaining.  I didn't have a problem with him, tbh. 

The one thing I did get a kick out of was when Webb disagreed with both Jack and Caldwell on the penalty call and the non-call involving Pepe in the Portugal-Spain match.  Otherwise, the synergy just isn't doing it for me with these guys, plus Robbo (another guy who talks a good game).  I'm surprised Herdman's not there yakking it up with them (did the CSA send him over?).

[rkomar]

1 hour ago, BearcatSA said:

And second, the Doc was a pretty witty guy and quite entertaining.  I didn't have a problem with him, tbh.

 I'll have to take your word for it because, although I'd spent years being taught by professors from Scotland, I could barely understand a word that Docherty was saying.  Worst of all was seeing by his facial expressions that he was being funny, but entirely missing the joke.  I so badly wanted to be in on the fun, but no such luck.  Ah, such a time of regrets...

[Blackdude]

For 2002, I think it was Jason DeVos and John Collins (I think because I remembered that he was a Scot who scored in the 1998 World Cup) were working in studio for CBC. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Blackdude

[Gian-Luca]

7 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

First, don't forget Sir Stanley Matthews in the studio in 82 and this great response:

Ernie:  Sir Stanley, Spain are down a goal to West Germany at the half.  What must they do in the second half?

Sir Stanley:  They must score two goals.

And second, the Doc was a pretty witty guy and quite entertaining.  I didn't have a problem with him, tbh. 

The one thing I did get a kick out of was when Webb disagreed with both Jack and Caldwell on the penalty call and the non-call involving Pepe in the Portugal-Spain match.  Otherwise, the synergy just isn't doing it for me with these guys, plus Robbo (another guy who talks a good game).  I'm surprised Herdman's not there yakking it up with them (did the CSA send him over?).

My guess is that Herdman will replace Robinson once the MLS season starts up again. 

I too enjoyed the “Vic, Dick and the Doc” crew of 1990, I was just fondly recalling that for Docherty, “shambles” was his version of John Collins “Poooorrrrrr!!!”, albeit 20 years earlier. I enjoyed Docherty far more than Collins who I am guessing must have answered a CBC job ad or something as I could never figure out why he got that gig. 

I should have remembered Sir Stanley Matthews for 1982, though I definitely don’t recall that particular passage of dialogue (but then I was an almost 10 year old at the time). 

[Gian-Luca]

5 hours ago, Blackdude said:

For 2002, I think it was Jason DeVos and John Collins (I think because I remembered that he was a Scot who scored in the 1998 World Cup) were working in studio for CBC. 

That would be 2010. We thankfully  only had to endure John Collins once and he was definitely there in 2010. Plus I don’t think CBC had the 2002 World Cup as I remember the “Rivaldo? Revolting!” barb from Vic Rauter that year (one of his better alliterations) and he’s only been with TSN.

 

[Kent]

I noticed the all Brit cast too. I thought we just had to replace KJ or Wileman with someone from Northern Ireland so that we'd get one from each of the UK countries.

[dyslexic nam]

Don't can KJ.  I have liked him since his time with Sharman, James and Budgie on The Footy Show.  But yeah, why they would bring in Robinson I have no idea as a fourth accent.  

[Guest Tg11]

Either way they will most likely keep the same panel especially because of the fact that the FIFA World Cup will continue to be on TSN or covered by TSN for 2022 and 2026

[kacbru]

1 hour ago, dyslexic nam said:

Don't can KJ.  I have liked him since his time with Sharman, James and Budgie on The Footy Show.  But yeah, why they would bring in Robinson I have no idea as a fourth accent.  

It's the North American soccer media version of diversity.

[Guest Tg11]

I would have thought for sure De Vos and or Craig Forrest would be on the panel for 2018 but apparently not. However, I wouldn't be surprised if we see one of them come back for Qatar 2022 to be on the panel assuming that happens. Now back to Herdman I mean if he can help Canada to qualify for 2022 then that's great but if not that should be enough to get him fired but would the CSA fire him really though? I mean apparently to them Herdman is their golden boy who can do no wrong hence why they hired him and fired Zambrano. Gold Cup 2019 will be the first big test for him to help qualify Canada's team and actually get results. If he can do that then Qatar 2022 qualifiers also begin in 2019 as well.

[Blackdude]

9 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

That would be 2010. We thankfully  only had to endure John Collins once and he was definitely there in 2010. Plus I don’t think CBC had the 2002 World Cup as I remember the “Rivaldo? Revolting!” barb from Vic Rauter that year (one of his better alliterations) and he’s only been with TSN.

  

Maybe, but DeVos did some work for the CBC in 2002. I'm pretty sure about it. I didn't know who he was, because I didn't know any Canada players at the time but saw his face later. It's possible that I was wrong on Collins though. 

[BearcatSA]

9 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

I should have remembered Sir Stanley Matthews for 1982, though I definitely don’t recall that particular passage of dialogue (but then I was an almost 10 year old at the time). 

My contemporaries and I (we were in high school then) thought that was pretty funny.  I really think he was demonstrating some dry wit but didn't quite pull it off.  He also really liked Peter Shilton ("We've got the best goalie in the world," he would say a number of times).  He spoke of Brazil's soccer as "tippy-tap."

Do you remember the English pbp guys for the 94 World Cup?  A couple of those guys should have been broadcasting while wearing pith hats and linen suits because they were pretty racist.  One guy misidentified a South Korean player and defended his error by saying that all the South Korean players looked the same anyways.  Another referred to an attempt on goal sailing high and wide as not having a "Chinaman's" chance of going in.  Ouch!  I wish somebody could dig up those nuggets.

[Bison44]

45 minutes ago, Tg11 said:

I would have thought for sure De Vos and or Craig Forrest would be on the panel for 2018 but apparently not. However, I wouldn't be surprised if we see one of them come back for Qatar 2022 to be on the panel assuming that happens. Now back to Herdman I mean if he can help Canada to qualify for 2022 then that's great but if not that should be enough to get him fired but would the CSA fire him really though? I mean apparently to them Herdman is their golden boy who can do no wrong hence why they hired him and fired Zambrano. Gold Cup 2019 will be the first big test for him to help qualify Canada's team and actually get results. If he can do that then Qatar 2022 qualifiers also begin in 2019 as well.

Herdman isnt getting canned based on GC 2019 no matter what happens.  He needs time to get anything done.  If the CSA doesnt give Herdman a full cycle to implement his top to bottom sweeping changes that they hired him to make, then they should all be fired.  

[Guest Tg11]

36 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Herdman isnt getting canned based on GC 2019 no matter what happens.  He needs time to get anything done.  If the CSA doesnt give Herdman a full cycle to implement his top to bottom sweeping changes that they hired him to make, then they should all be fired.  

Yes they should be and of course with most Canadians they are of the mindset "WIN NOW" but the thing is is that Canada's team is young in of that of itself. It is like they are putting unrealistic expectations on Canada right out the gate which in my opinion is kind of unfair. I mean obviously Canada is not going to be winning now. I mean they still need time to grow as a team but also Herdman just came into the job how long ago? Herdman can't be expected to make changes overnight like that is not realistic. It is obviously going to take time and I am patient. However, there are 2 upcoming cycles which will be very telling for Herdman as far as him staying on as a manager which are the Gold Cup and 2022 qualifying. I mean if we can somehow by some miracle win the 2019 Gold Cup then we would qualify for the 2021 FIFA Confederations Cup which could be used as another learning experience for us. Do we have the talent to win it all? I mean yeah our team is talented but enough to win a Gold Cup? Realistically not right now anyway. However, 2022 FIFA World Cup qualifying is the more important of the upcoming cycles. I mean if he can get us over that hump to qualify then and only then can we use that as a dress rehearsal well for 2026 since we are one of the co-hosts.

[red card]

22 hours ago, Tg11 said:

What is the problem with a Brits only panel? I mean what is so bad about that? I mean I don't know about you but I love the Brit panel. Their emphasis or analysis on games is what makes the FIFA World Cup and it always has been. So why should 2026 be any different?

As I noted in the WC 18 thread, we have diversity on the pitch but not so much in the TSN studios. We like to see different countries from around the world playing all kinds of styles rather than just having the 5 or so British nations playing the same style. So why not have differing perspectives in the studio. KJ& CR are good but SC can easily be rotated in and out. 

I also tweeted TSN about it.

So, this is the one case where Fox & ESPN do it right. They usually rotate out one analyst when one of the bigger teams are playing. Beside Lalas & Barton, Fox has Ian Wright, Crespo, Hiddink, Matthaus, Moises Munoz and Kelly Smith that I have seen so far. But their announcing crews are really bad - can handle only about 15 mins of their inane chatter.

TSN doesn't probably want to spend like Fox but given we have the MLS now, there should be enough players from the 12 or so big nations to at least bring over video link. Or at the minimum, TSN needs to do more interviews like they did with Schweinsteiger before GERMEX. But I have a feeling Herdman will come in to replace Robinson when MLS restarts.

Edited June 19, 2018 by red card

[Guest Tg11]

9 minutes ago, red card said:

As I noted in the WC 18 thread, we have diversity on the pitch but not so much in the TSN studios. We like to see different countries from around the world playing all kinds of styles rather than just having the 5 or so British nations playing the same style. So why not have differing perspectives in the studio. KJ& CR are good but SC can easily be rotated in and out. 

I also tweeted TSN about it.

So, this is the one case where Fox & ESPN do it right. They usually rotate out one analyst when one of the bigger teams are playing. Beside Lalas & Barton, Fox has Ian Wright, Crespo, Hiddink, Matthaus, Moises Munoz and Kelly Smith that I have seen so far. But their announcing crews are really bad - can handle only about 15 mins of their inane chatter.

TSN doesn't probably want to spend like Fox but given we have the MLS now, there should be enough players from the 12 or so big nations to at least bring over video link. Or at the minimum, TSN needs to do more interviews like they did with Schweinsteiger before GERMEX. But I have a feeling Herdman will come in to replace Robinson when MLS restarts.

 

Or get at least a legend or 2 or even a former player who has been on the World stage at either a FIFA World Cup or at a EURO on the Panel then if that is what you want

[Grizzly]

As annoying as the all British crew is (even the ref is British ? ) I watched a game today on Fox with American announcers and that was horrible. I do think we could do a lot better than the American broadcast with a mix of former Canadian players and other foreign experts who aren't solely British. Fox at least had Guus Hiddink at halftime though which was about the only saving grace of their broadcast. Actually the Fox play by play guy was British too but not very good and the colour commentary by Cobi Jones was terrible. 

[Gian-Luca]

3 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

My contemporaries and I (we were in high school then) thought that was pretty funny.  I really think he was demonstrating some dry wit but didn't quite pull it off.  He also really liked Peter Shilton ("We've got the best goalie in the world," he would say a number of times).  He spoke of Brazil's soccer as "tippy-tap."

Do you remember the English pbp guys for the 94 World Cup?  A couple of those guys should have been broadcasting while wearing pith hats and linen suits because they were pretty racist.  One guy misidentified a South Korean player and defended his error by saying that all the South Korean players looked the same anyways.  Another referred to an attempt on goal sailing high and wide as not having a "Chinaman's" chance of going in.  Ouch!  I wish somebody could dig up those nuggets.

I think TSN had the "ITV feed" (instead of the BBC one) for both the 1990 and 1994 World Cups and the two colour commentators ITV tended to use were Trevor Francis and Ron Atkinson. Trevor Francis was ok IMO but I do recall one time he was a bit too patriotic as he angrily protested that an Italian player had  nerve to (shock, gasp, horror!) question the decision of an English ref on the field, something I don't recall him complaining about whenever the decision of non-English ref was questioned by a player.

I suspect Ron Atkinson is the one you may be thinking of. I seem to recall there was some sort of racial controversy later in either his coaching or broadcasting career to do with Marcel Desailly of France. He was a bit of an opinionated asshole IIRC, who criticized West Germany so heavily in their 1990 World Cup final match (I think he said something like Franz Beckenbaeur should be ashamed of his team or would be insane if he was proud of them) that I recall that back in the studio after the game feed ended both Dick Howard and Tommy Docherty spent half the time criticizing Atkinson's words rather than commenting upon the World Cup final itself. I've no doubt Docherty would have claimed that it was both a shambles of a match and a shambles of a commentary job.

The only reference to a Chinaman that I can recall from the World Cups of either 1990 or 1994 was in the 3rd place game between England and Italy. In the final seconds of the game Nicola Berti  (contender for the Italian player with the worst-ever hairstyle) scored on a fantastic header to make it 3-1 for Italy, but he was wrongly ruled offside. When replays showed that he was about 10 yards on side on the play the English play-by-play man admitted "If that's offside, then I'm a Chinaman". So a little bizarre (I've a funny feeling we aren't going to hear Howard Webb say "if that's not a penalty, then I'm a black dude", for example) but probably had a better intention behind it than one than you were referring to.

After the 1994 I think they stopped using the BBC or ITV feeds and went with the FIFA international English feed or something (they all use British play by play callers, but no analysts IIRC).

Edited June 19, 2018 by Gian-Luca