CPL new teams speculation

[Rheo]

6 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

The small markets all competing against each other in local derbys is a romantic thought, but they seriously need to think about penetrating the big markets before making sure it's palatable for moose jaw, otherwise this league is in trouble.

Agreed it's romantic.  A whole bunch of putting the cart before the horse in the excitement.  That being said Beirne was talking long term goal.  Anything to that degree would be years and years away.

[Macksam]

7 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So far the teams that are being speculated about for CPL since the announcement was made are not in those three core markets and are arguably more comparable to what you would expect to have at D3 level in the United States given there is a 750k metro size area threshold for D2 in the sanctioning rules. That could still change if for example the much rumoured Toronto billionaire suddenly surfaces with plans for a 20k plus SSS and a huge NY Cosmos style player budget, but if as appears to be the case at the moment, something like Halifax, Quebec City, Hamilton, K/W, Winnipeg and Saskatoon are featuring prominently when/if the league launches there really isn't a conflict going on between the two.

On the surface no.

Sure, the Canadian markets being talked about would be ideal for the United States' D3 level (mostly due to TV market size) but that means nothing in a Canadian context when it comes to the level of support those markets can receive when various factors like civic pride, interest and most importantly pro sports competition come into the equation. Our markets that are in the 300,000 to 500,000 range (The USA's "D3 level") could very well draw current US D1 level numbers in terms of support in the long term. The Rush average 15,000 because the city has zero professional sports competition and they play in a perfect venue for box lacrosse. I'm not saying this will happen but if some serious investors plotted down a 15,000 to 20,000 seat high quality SSS in Saskatoon for a CPL franchise, would it be unreasonable to assume it would be a smash hit? I don't think so.

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by Macksam

[Rheo]

4 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

Also, whats with the MLS team hate? the success of one does not require the failure of the other.

From what I've seen it's patriotism built from the lack (depending on one's perspective) of benefits that MLS has brought to the Canadian soccer landscape. MLS sell themselves as the saviour to Canadian soccer when many think it's a bunch of crap.  They view the CPL as the best way to look out for what's best for Canadian soccer and the thought of it has inspired lots of people.

For the record I'm pro MLS but I do think they're full of it when they overblow what they've done for the game here.  It has definitely been beneficial but it's to nowhere near they like to play it up.  That being said it's America's first division and they should be looking out for their players just like the CPL should be looking out for our players first.

This is how I've explained it to friends who don't really care but I bore them with the details anyways

[Rheo]

2 minutes ago, dsqpr said:

Franchise fee? Groan....

Why are you surprised lol.  This is going to be a professional league not home grown clubs that sprout out of nowhere to form a league.  I really get the romanticism of the good old ways of Europe but people need to be grounded a bit in reality.

[lazlo_80]

1 minute ago, Rheo said:

From what I've seen it's patriotism built from the lack (depending on one's perspective) of benefits that MLS has brought to the Canadian soccer landscape. MLS sell themselves as the saviour to Canadian soccer when many think it's a bunch of crap.  They view the CPL as the best way to look out for what's best for Canadian soccer and the thought of it has inspired lots of people.

For the record I'm pro MLS but I do think they're full of it when they overblow what they've done for the game here.  It has definitely been beneficial but it's to nowhere near they like to play it up.  That being said it's America's first division and they should be looking out for their players just like the CPL should be looking out for our players first.

This is how I've explained it to friends who don't really care but I bore them with the details anyways

thats all fair. I'm probably a touch more pro MLS than you but this isn't the thread to discuss these sort of nuance when we probably agree on 80%. 

With that said, I believe having a league of that ambition in our country in 3 markets will be a boon to the CPL in the long run. 

[dyslexic nam]

1 minute ago, lazlo_80 said:

Also, whats with the MLS team hate? the success of one does not require the failure of the other.

I am hopeful that we can achieve some sort of equilibrium with a strong presence in MLS and a strong domestic league, but it is hard to avoid the idea that there is significant tension between the two undertakings:

• MLS currently has a firm grasp on our 3 biggest markets
• the presence of MLS in Canada's biggest markets will present challenges to those marketing CPL as tier 1 Canadian footy
• MLS has only made concessions in longstanding issues re domestics when momentum for CPL started gaining ground, and even then the concessions were not what Canadians were looking for and (it could be argued) could be interpreted as undermining the emerging Canadian domestic league
• MLS wanted their reserve sides in CPL, and that idea was rejected

Et cetera.

As I said, I am not a hater.  I tune in to MLS, cheer for TFC (and the other 2 when they aren't playing TFC) and am glad we have 3 strong teams in a growing league that has a pretty high potential ceiling.  But none of that overrides the fact that MLS does not benefit us the same way it does players south of the border, or that its business interests will likely continue to put it at odds with what could end up being the biggest undertaking in Canadian soccer history. 

 

[lazlo_80]

1 minute ago, dyslexic nam said:

I am hopeful that we can achieve some sort of equilibrium with a strong presence in MLS and a strong domestic league, but it is hard to avoid the idea that there is significant tension between the two undertakings:

• MLS currently has a firm grasp on our 3 biggest markets
• the presence of MLS in Canada's biggest markets will present challenges to those marketing CPL as tier 1 Canadian footy
• MLS has only made concessions in longstanding issues re domestics when momentum for CPL started gaining ground, and even then the concessions were not what Canadians were looking for and (it could be argued) could be interpreted as undermining the emerging Canadian domestic league
• MLS wanted their reserve sides in CPL, and that idea was rejected

Et cetera.

As I said, I am not a hater.  I tune in to MLS, cheer for TFC (and the other 2 when they aren't playing TFC) and am glad we have 3 strong teams in a growing league that has a pretty high potential ceiling.  But none of that overrides the fact that MLS does not benefit us the same way it does players south of the border, or that its business interests will likely continue to put it at odds with what could end up being the biggest undertaking in Canadian soccer history. 

 

Don't disagree with anything you said. It all makes sense.

I just hear from some people things that make me think they hope to see the MLS fall apart in this country as a result of this CPL which I find a little misguided.

[Rheo]

3 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

thats all fair. I'm probably a touch more pro MLS than you but this isn't the thread to discuss these sort of nuance when we probably agree on 80%. 

With that said, I believe having a league of that ambition in our country in 3 markets will be a boon to the CPL in the long run. 

I'm very realistic but pro both leagues.  CPL will give more players a path and hopefully that will lead them on to better league whether that be MLS, Europe or wherever.  They both should have a big place in the Canadian pyramid realistically.

I think the other factor I forgot in my original post is Manning being adversarial to the CPL if they try to go into Toronto.  Rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

[dyslexic nam]

4 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

Don't disagree with anything you said. It all makes sense.

I just hear from some people things that make me think they hope to see the MLS fall apart in this country as a result of this CPL which I find a little misguided.

Yeah, it is a fine line - and one that I am trying to straddle.  I certainly don't wish them ill.  I have really been enjoying the level of footy in MLS lately and think it has come light years from when I started following (when TFC joined). 

Having said that, I would not oppose the migration of support from MLS clubs to same-market CPL clubs once the league was firmly established, even if it meant the demise of MLS in Canada.  For me, a true domestic league has to be priority 1, and that supersedes any club loyalty.     

Either way, there will be some interesting times ahead.  Ironically, the best case scenario for many Canadian footy fans in the medium term is enough CPL success to make the future of our MLS teams something they would have to actively fight for.

[nolbertos]

I don't get this hate for MLS.  MLS is a better quality product so far, than the local footy here.  MLS has raised awareness for futbol and made it relevant to Canadian fans again.  Chances of MLS leaving Canada, are the same chances of the Mexican hockey team, winning a IIHL junior championship against Canada.  Just be glad that the CPL is at least in existence.  Best case scenario, it'll be like the Welsh League, which is better than nothing.  If and thats a Huge IF, the CPL quality gets on par with MLS, than they can have discussion to partner up or join leagues, if the Big three don't budge.  At the end, futbol is progressing in Canada.  If the owners and fans want to draw a red line between MLS and CPL, I can tell you that it won't benefit no-one and it will hurt Canadian Futbol long term.

[ironcub14]

21 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I think this is bang on.  Both the Fury and FCEd are businesses at the end of the day, and if their consumers signal strongly that they want change, a wise business owner will listen.  I know Socceronly resists that kind of commodification language, but in some contexts I think it makes sense - and the idea of fan power to influence change in a club is one of those examples.

All of us desparately wanting the Ottawa and Edmonton owners to hop on the CPL train won't do it.  But supporter pressure - to be part of the grand project of advancing Canadian footy - just might be enough.  

I have said said elsewhere that CPL can't be self-excluded from these markets for an extended period - but movement of existing clubs into CPL would be the preferred option by far.  And is supporter pressure can help make that happen, it could be hugely influential if any V's involved in supporting those clubs made a concerted effort to convince the owners. 

I just wanted to add one quick but really important thing that I had kinda forgot about the last couple of months.

The owner of the Fury since the PDL days, and one of 4 OSEG co-partners, John Pugh, has been re-appointed to the CSA Board of Directors today, according to CSA's twitter, as he has been for a number of years. I also just learned today that Pugh is a comp sci prof at Carleton, never knew.

Anyways, unless he's going to get in some big smackdown brawl or smth with Uncle Vic, Steven Reed and Nick Bontis, who's been championing CPL Hamilton like crazy, clearly Pugh and the rest of the CSA boys has got to be chilling together playing checkers in the CSA boardroom. Or maybe chess. Maybe poker. The point is, they're all tight as hell together.

http://www.canadasoccer.com/board-of-directors-p144307-preview-1

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

2 hours ago, Oranje said:

I'd love to see North Calgary vs South Calgary but I am also not sold on Calgary being able to support one team... Definition of fair weather fans

It takes more than having 200,000 people living in close proximity in an area of a larger city to create a viable market for a pro sports team. A big part of what you need is a strong sense of community and local media outlets that people pay close attention to covering the games on a regular basis. You have that in a city like London, Ontario or Victoria even for leagues like PDL in a way you don't in the outer suburbs of the major cities where TV, radio and newspapers very much revolve around coverage of the inner core of the major city and people identify with the inner core city in terms of the sports teams that they follow.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, nolbertos said:

I don't get this hate for MLS.

You're confusing "hate" and "criticism"

1 hour ago, nolbertos said:

MLS is a better quality product so far, than the local footy here.

Yes a better product but it's hard to relate to it. That's marketing 101.

1 hour ago, nolbertos said:

 MLS has raised awareness for futbol and made it relevant to Canadian fans again.

Yes and everyone is grateful for it, including me. I don't get why you're so adamant at saying that Canadian minds can't have a high level competitive Division 1 league by Canadians for Canadians. Canada doesn't belong to MLS or those 3 clubs

1 hour ago, nolbertos said:

Chances of MLS leaving Canada, are the same chances of the Mexican hockey team, winning a IIHL junior championship against Canada.

It comes down to economics, so, yes unlikely within the next decade but not impossible. No one can predict what's going to happen in 15 years

1 hour ago, nolbertos said:

Just be glad that the CPL is at least in existence.

I'm not liking your tone

1 hour ago, nolbertos said:

Best case scenario, it'll be like the Welsh League, which is better than nothing.

Excellence is to seek to surpass your limits. We lack structure and a good program, not gifted athletes in this country

1 hour ago, nolbertos said:

If and thats a Huge IF, the CPL quality gets on par with MLS, than they can have discussion to partner up or join leagues, if the Big three don't budge.

Why the hell, would we join with MLS? You sound like a boomer who came from a generation that believes that we're nothing without the Americans to hold our hands. I'm proud of my generation that believes that we can actually do things without them. I'm no football fan but I gained unbelievable respect for what the CFL has achieved. When you take to understand their financial structure and business model, that's how much more optimistic you become regarding CPL having the same minds into it.

1 hour ago, nolbertos said:

At the end, futbol is progressing in Canada.  If the owners and fans want to draw a red line between MLS and CPL, I can tell you that it won't benefit no-one and it will hurt Canadian Futbol long term.

It's not the fans drawing the line. It's MLS as a league. No one here wants those 3 clubs to fold but lots of people wouldn't hate MLS to leave us alone.

Don Garber made no fans in Montreal yesterday when he started to give BS excuses on why the Real Madrid All-Star games went to Chicago instead of Montreal. On top of that, that asshole start lecturing my city, the fans and the club. He went as far as barely hiding his annoyance at the mayor giving more attention to bringing MLB back to Montreal than giving him attention citing all the good time he had with Chicago mayor. Garber and MLS knows nothing about Canada, Canadiens nor does he cares about any of us except our money. His comments on Montreal Impact to be equal to the Montreal Canadiens in order for Saputo stadium hoping to host a game was ridiculous.

Soccer fans in Montreal and with yesterday's stunt, even casual soccer fans now views the league very negatively. He wants to be the second coming of Gary Bettman, be my guest but he's making it so easy to just drop MLS as a product. I gave MLS all the chances it deserved. I watched it on TV, cancel dates for it, went to the game, bought merchandise and overpaid for food and beer and for what? To have a league showing us so little regard? Yesterday's press conference from Garber broke it for me. I'm done and could care less about that league.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Ansem

[Oranje]

7 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It takes more than having 200,000 people living in close proximity in an area of a larger city to create a viable market for a pro sports team. A big part of what you need is a strong sense of community and local media outlets that people pay close attention to covering the games on a regular basis. You have that in a city like London, Ontario or Victoria even for leagues like PDL in a way you don't in the outer suburbs of the major cities where TV, radio and newspapers very much revolve around coverage of the inner core of the major city and people identify with the inner core city in terms of the sports teams that they follow.

The thing with Calgary is that it is almost exclusively suburbs. Only 18K/1.4M live downtown proper. Theoretically each quadrant of the city could support a team in terms of population but if that has a chance in hell, the teams would need to be deeply involve the existing teams in the respective areas.. But like I said before, I'm not sold that Calgary can support one team

[Macksam]

58 minutes ago, nolbertos said:

Best case scenario, it'll be like the Welsh League, which is better than nothing.  

That's actually the worst case scenario, because a coast to coast league will fold and die if all it can garner is Welsh league support. Best case scenario, and this is truly achievable in my eyes, 20 years from now, we have the more successful franchises begin talks of tearing down their pop ups and start planning for 20,000 seat SSSs. There I said it. 

As for the league's quality in relation to MLS at that point in time, it doesn't matter.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Macksam

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

35 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

The owner of the Fury since the PDL days, and one of 4 OSEG co-partners, John Pugh, has been re-appointed to the CSA Board of Directors today, according to CSA's twitter, as he has been for a number of years. I also just learned today that Pugh is a comp sci prof at Carleton, never knew.

Doesn't Pugh get appointed by the pro teams as their representative at that level rather than by the rest of the CSA board?.

[ironcub14]

7 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Doesn't Pugh get appointed by the pro teams as their representative at that level rather than by the rest of the CSA board?.

I don't actually know, feel free to educate me on the matter.

For me, the fact that they are in the board together is still incredibly important. Whether they are in agreement or not, I have no idea, but the discussions must be ongoing ALL the time in that room.

[Ansem]

Regarding Travel Costs and logistics

https://cfldb.ca/faq/teams/#how-do-cfl-teams-travel

Travel costs for franchises will be in the $500,000 range. This is based on the Edmonton Eskimos 2010 financial statements showing Away game costs of $630,000 in 2010 and $592,000 is 2009. It is assumed this includes flights and hotels and possibly also meals and player per diems. The reason for the increase is largely likely due to the Eskimos road game in Moncton in 2010 as well as inflationary costs. The Saskatchewan Roughriders showed Away game costs of $448,000 for 2009, including the Grey Cup. It is not clear if they include the same costs in their figures as Edmonton, or if their travel distances and methods were similar.

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Don't think it is safe to assume that people are best buddies just because they are colleagues in that sort of regard or that they necessarily always agree on what is the best way ahead. Suspect Pugh gets the pro team rep gig mainly because he's based in Ottawa and that means he doesn't have to do so much travelling given it is an Ottawa based organization.

[Complete Homer]

44 minutes ago, Oranje said:

The thing with Calgary is that it is almost exclusively suburbs. Only 18K/1.4M live downtown proper. Theoretically each quadrant of the city could support a team in terms of population but if that has a chance in hell, the teams would need to be deeply involve the existing teams in the respective areas.. But like I said before, I'm not sold that Calgary can support one team

It's very suburby, but in my experience at least, Calgarians are used to it and don't seem to have qualms about driving 40 minutes for an event even though they live "downtown"

[Complete Homer]

13 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Regarding Travel Costs and logistics

https://cfldb.ca/faq/teams/#how-do-cfl-teams-travel

Travel costs for franchises will be in the $500,000 range. This is based on the Edmonton Eskimos 2010 financial statements showing Away game costs of $630,000 in 2010 and $592,000 is 2009. It is assumed this includes flights and hotels and possibly also meals and player per diems. The reason for the increase is largely likely due to the Eskimos road game in Moncton in 2010 as well as inflationary costs. The Saskatchewan Roughriders showed Away game costs of $448,000 for 2009, including the Grey Cup. It is not clear if they include the same costs in their figures as Edmonton, or if their travel distances and methods were similar.

 

Good find. Extrapolating for CPL, presumably it would be cheaper only flying with 18, but they would also have more dates

[Rheo]

3 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Good find. Extrapolating for CPL, presumably it would be cheaper only flying with 18, but they would also have more dates

A hell of a lot less equipment to carry as well which would knock the cost down a bit I'd assume.

[shermanator]

20 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

It's very suburby, but in my experience at least, Calgarians are used to it and don't seem to have qualms about driving 40 minutes for an event even though they live "downtown"

As someone who lives in a relatively inner city Calgary neighborhood, with most of my friends living in the suburbs, I don't think this is necessarily the case. Anecdotally of course, my friends in the suburbs generally don't like to travel downtown, and I generally don't like to travel to the suburbs. And the dislike of the long travel times is exponential if rush hour is involved.

It depends on the event really. What is the event? Where is the event? When is it? These are all factors in determining whether the casual fan is going to travel large distances to see a game.

[Macksam]

Pugh is probably on board with the CPL unlike his benefactors (OSEG). Once that relationship gets broken, we'll hear better things from Ottawa with regards to joining the CPL.

[Complete Homer]

7 minutes ago, shermanator said:

As someone who lives in a relatively inner city Calgary neighborhood, with most of my friends living in the suburbs, I don't think this is necessarily the case. Anecdotally of course, my friends in the suburbs generally don't like to travel downtown, and I generally don't like to travel to the suburbs. And the dislike of the long travel times is exponential if rush hour is involved.

It depends on the event really. What is the event? Where is the event? When is it? These are all factors in determining whether the casual fan is going to travel large distances to see a game.

Fair, I'm going off working out there for a summer/family out there. There seemed to be a general driving culture but obviously small sample size