CPL new teams speculation

[ironcub14]

6 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I'm guessing in 2013 it was likely too early to pass up a new pro team based on CPL musings. Plus I bet it could have been argued that a TFC farm team in the tird tier wouldn't completely interfere with a proper first team in NASL

So, in 2013, was it a combination of Young's opposition and the CSA being convinced by the Ti-Cats to say no to the Lynx/TFC/USL proposal that killed all this?

[Complete Homer]

Just now, ironcub14 said:

So, in 2013, was it a combination of Young's opposition and the CSA being convinced by the Ti-Cats to say no to the Lynx/TFC/USL proposal that killed all this?

Not that I'd know better than you, but IIRC the TiCats had an exclusivity clause on using Tim Horton's Field for a pro soccer team (until 2015 I think?). Which sort of brings us full circle to the Hamilton City council making a bit of a statement, since the TiCats no longer have that exclusivity (but there also isn't any other serious parties, publicly at least)

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Even if there are no other parties interested (and I suspect that's probably the case) there may have been some very favourable rental terms that went with the original exclusivity clause, so the reason that councillors are wanting to revisit this is that they may want to get a better deal for the city out of this financially. Looks to me like calling for bids is a case of hitting the reset button and negotiating everything again from scratch with the Ticats in a way that may also give them some leverage on other issues related to the stadium.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/city-sets-stage-for-legal-action-over-delayed-tim-hortons-field-stadium-1.3559136

[Complete Homer]

33 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Even if there are no other parties interested (and I suspect that's probably the case) there may have been some very favourable rental terms that went with the original exclusivity clause, so the reason that councillors are wanting to revisit this is that they may want to get a better deal for the city out of this financially. Looks to me like calling for bids is a case of hitting the reset button and negotiating everything again from scratch with the Ticats in a way that may also give them some leverage on other issues related to the stadium.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/city-sets-stage-for-legal-action-over-delayed-tim-hortons-field-stadium-1.3559136

Certainly possible, especially with things seeming less amicable these days

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

So I guess at the moment an 8 team league might look like this based on what has been revealed so far:

East: Halifax, Quebec City?, Hamilton, K/W

West: Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Calgary?, Fraser Valley

if everything fell neatly into place on what has been speculated as it seldom does unfortunately, and Ottawa and Edmonton stuck with the USL and NASL, which is by no means definite. I doubt Don Garber will be losing any sleep over that as a potential rival to MLS, but on the flip side it contains the sort of smaller markets where a lower level of soccer in budgetary and quality of play terms is more likely to find a niche, as long as they are realistic with their break even point.

Edited June 25, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

20 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So I guess at the moment an 8 team league might look like this based on what has been revealed so far:

East: Halifax, Quebec City?, Hamilton, K/W

West: Winnipeg, Saskatoon, Calgary?, Fraser Valley

if everything fell neatly into place on what has been speculated as it seldom does unfortunately, and Ottawa and Edmonton stuck with the USL and NASL, which is by no means definite. I doubt Don Garber will be losing any sleep over that as a potential rival to MLS, but on the flip side it contains the sort of smaller markets where a lower level of soccer in budgetary and quality of play terms is more likely to find a niche, as long as they are realistic with their break even point.

If the league does kick off strong i could see the attendance rising to meet some of the less attended games in the MLS (10k-12k). It would definitely take a couple years and the stadiums would have to accommodate that. The MLS is in some BIG markets but they really don't get the support. It is possible that a CPL team in the future could be competitive with the MLS i think. The CPL will always be an underdog though. Like you said, it is important that they are realistic with their break even point though. If they don't do it right they 

[Blackjack15]

As of right now, where do we stand? 

[mpg_29]

Was reading an article about a new NBL Canada franchise awarded to St. John's:

 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/basketball-franchise-stjohns-new-yorker-irwin-simon-1.4210608

and found this tidbit...

[Graham said Simon may be interested in bringing a hockey team, or other sports, to St. John's in the future.

"I don't think there is any dispute that it would make sense to do that. The focus is on the basketball at the moment and that's what we want to do," he said.

"I've been involved in three Quebec Major Junior franchises in the Maritimes and a couple of AHL franchises. We've also talked about soccer because there is a new Canadian premier soccer league."]

[Gopherbashi]

7 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

Was reading an article about a new NBL Canada franchise awarded to St. John's:

 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/basketball-franchise-stjohns-new-yorker-irwin-simon-1.4210608

and found this tidbit...

[Graham said Simon may be interested in bringing a hockey team, or other sports, to St. John's in the future.

"I don't think there is any dispute that it would make sense to do that. The focus is on the basketball at the moment and that's what we want to do," he said.

"I've been involved in three Quebec Major Junior franchises in the Maritimes and a couple of AHL franchises. We've also talked about soccer because there is a new Canadian premier soccer league."]

Isn't there some dispute about who the new owner is?

Something about the group that the city leased the stadium to isn't the same group that was awarded the franchise?

[m-g-williams]

53 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

Isn't there some dispute about who the new owner is?

Something about the group that the city leased the stadium to isn't the same group that was awarded the franchise?

I'd be more concerned about the actual potential of any St. John's based franchise to go the distance. The Maple Leafs, the Fog Devils, and the Ice Caps Vol. 1 and 2 all ended up being relocated/soon to be relocated. If professional and semi-professional hockey teams can't make it there - and this, despite fairly solid local support and relatively deep pockets - I just don't see how a professional soccer team targeting 5,000 avg. attendance is going to make it.

As much as I love the city, with the travel time and costs associated with having a team there, I'd be very, very wary of setting up a team there, at least in the first five to ten years of the league. Maybe once the CPL is more of a known quantity and there's greater media/pubic buy-in, but definitely not to start out. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the NBL team.

Edited July 19, 2017 by m-g-williams

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, m-g-williams said:

I'd be more concerned about the actual potential of any St. John's based franchise to go the distance. The Maple Leafs, the Fog Devils, and the Ice Caps Vol. 1 and 2 all ended up being relocated/soon to be relocated. If professional and semi-professional hockey teams can't make it there - and this, despite fairly solid local support and relatively deep pockets - I just don't see how a professional soccer team targeting 5,000 avg. attendance is going to make it.

As much as I love the city, with the travel time and costs associated with having a team there, I'd be very, very wary of setting up a team there, at least in the first five to ten years of the league. Maybe once the CPL is more of a known quantity and there's greater media/pubic buy-in, but definitely not to start out. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the NBL team.

I agree with your general point, but just pointing out that the Marlies were well attended in St. John's. The decision to move to Toronto was to aid its function for moving players up and down, along with the belief that the team would be more profitable in Toronto (though it was profitable in St. John's from memory) 

Regardless, I doubt St. John's happens without a sugar daddy type owner, which aren't exactly numerous in Newfoundland 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Complete Homer

[mpg_29]

1 hour ago, m-g-williams said:

I'd be more concerned about the actual potential of any St. John's based franchise to go the distance. The Maple Leafs, the Fog Devils, and the Ice Caps Vol. 1 and 2 all ended up being relocated/soon to be relocated. If professional and semi-professional hockey teams can't make it there - and this, despite fairly solid local support and relatively deep pockets - I just don't see how a professional soccer team targeting 5,000 avg. attendance is going to make it.

As much as I love the city, with the travel time and costs associated with having a team there, I'd be very, very wary of setting up a team there, at least in the first five to ten years of the league. Maybe once the CPL is more of a known quantity and there's greater media/pubic buy-in, but definitely not to start out. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the NBL team.

It's a bit disingenuous to say hockey teams can't make it there as both Winnipeg and Montreal simply wanted their farm teams closer...Icecaps basically sold out for several years straight and was avg ~6000 in attendance up until the last year when it was already known the teams was moving

Also while travel would be a bit longer compared to Halifax... i'm not sure it would cost that much more as basically every team is going to have to fly...

Anyway, not saying CPL would work there for sure..though I think it would have a better chance than basketball..

Edited July 19, 2017 by mpg_29

[Blackjack15]

would all the Canadian PDL Teams fold in order to join the PL? 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Not sure Newfoundland can be dismissed out of hand if Saskatoon is being taken seriously despite its small metro size, because it has a decent pedigree in soccer terms. Can remember that St John's was reported to have had some spectacularly large crowds showing up for the amateur National Championships about 15 years back when a London, Ont team was in it, and it has a stadium that would be absolutely ideal for a league like CPL that hosted what was arguably the greatest game in CMNT history (I'd go for 2000 Gold Cup personally).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V_Park

Edited July 19, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Complete Homer]

7 hours ago, Blackjack15 said:

would all the Canadian PDL Teams fold in order to join the PL? 

Some can't even if they could/wanted to (ex. TSS committed to 3 years in PDL)

Bierne recently said in an interview (so many lately, not sure...maybe Footysoldiers?) that he doubted if PDL ownership could make the financial leap. Unless I misheard that particular part, there certainly seems at least the occassional implication that Victoria is involved somehow

[m-g-williams]

Don't get me wrong, I would love nothing more than to see a team thrive in St John's, and I'm a big fan of George V Park and the local products they've been developing on the island. I'm just wary of having a professional soccer team there when so many other well-supported teams didn't last. The distance/travel costs were big factors in moving the Leafs and the Ice Caps (as we've all acknowledged), and even the Fog Devils (LHJMQ team with independent ownership) ended up in a pretty bad financial state after two or three years before they were sold off and moved.

If town were on the mainland, like Saskatoon or Regina, I don't think it'd be an issue at all (plus, these two cities benefit from being fairly central in the West and making travel costs a bit more reasonable). But having lived there, I know that travel can be a real obstacle. Memorial University doesn't even have a hockey team because the travel costs to the mainland don't justify it (yes, university teams are obviously different than professional teams, but the fact that a Canadian university can't make a hockey team work just seems wrong). I've had friends of mine living in Toronto - not even Winnipeg, or Regina, or Victoria, but Toronto - trying to fly home before and find out that they could fly round-trip to Frankfurt or Dubai for cheaper.  

If the CPL manages to do like the Toronto Wolf Pack and get a sponsorship deal for travel, then obviously this would be a game changer. Get WestJet or *vomit* Air Canada to cover/subsidize the costs, and then it's a whole new scenario. But barring that, and looking at the recent history of sports teams in the city, I have a very, very hard time feeling confident that a soccer team in town would make it in a national league.

I'm not usually a naysayer when it comes to making soccer work in Canada, and I'm not definitively saying that it won't work . . . but this idea just raises a lot of red flags for me.

Edited July 20, 2017 by m-g-williams

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, m-g-williams said:

Don't get me wrong, I would love nothing more than to see a team thrive in St John's, and I'm a big fan of George V Park and the local products they've been developing on the island. I'm just wary of having a professional soccer team there when so many other well-supported teams didn't last. The distance/travel costs were big factors in moving the Leafs and the Ice Caps (as we've all acknowledged), and even the Fog Devils (LHJMQ team with independent ownership) ended up in a pretty bad financial state after two or three years before they were sold off and moved.

If town were on the mainland, like Saskatoon or Regina, I don't think it'd be an issue at all (plus, these two cities benefit from being fairly central in the West and making travel costs a bit more reasonable). But having lived there, I know that travel can be a real obstacle. Memorial University doesn't even have a hockey team because the travel costs to the mainland don't justify it (yes, university teams are obviously different than professional teams, but the fact that a Canadian university can't make a hockey team work just seems wrong). I've had friends of mine living in Toronto - not even Winnipeg, or Regina, or Victoria, but Toronto - trying to fly home before and find out that they could fly round-trip to Frankfurt or Dubai for cheaper.  

If the CPL manages to do like the Toronto Wolf Pack and get a sponsorship deal for travel, then obviously this would be a game changer. Get WestJet or *vomit* Air Canada to cover/subsidize the costs, and then it's a whole new scenario. But barring that, and looking at the recent history of sports teams in the city, I have a very, very hard time feeling confident that a soccer team in town would going to make it in a national league.

I'm not usually a naysayer when it comes to making soccer work in Canada, and I'm not definitively saying that it won't work . . . but this idea just raises a lot of red flags for me.

Paul Beirne was quite adamant that travel cost weren't a concern for the league.

St John's Nlfd

• Metro population was: 196k + in 2011 and 205,955 in 2016, a +4.57% population growth
• Ethnic origin (can be more than one): 45% English origin, 41% Canadian, 31% Irish, 4.6% French, 2.1% German
• Economy: ExxonMobil Canada is headquartered in St. John's and companies such as Chevron, Husky Energy, Suncor Energy and Statoil have major regional operations in the city.  The economy has been growing quickly in recent years. In both 2010 and 2011, the metro area's gross domestic product (GDP) led 27 other metropolitan areas in the country, according to the Conference Board of Canada, recording growth of 6.6 per cent and 5.8 per cent respectively. At $52,000 the city's per capita GDP is the second highest out of all major Canadian cities. Economic forecasts suggest that the city will continue its strong economic growth in the coming years not only in the "oceanic" industries mentioned above, but also in tourism and new home construction as the population continues to grow. In May 2011, the city's unemployment rate fell to 5.6 per cent, the second lowest unemployment rate for a major city in Canada. The civil service which is supported by the federal, provincial and municipal governments has been the key to the expansion of the city's labour force and to the stability of its economy, which supports a sizable retail, service and business sector. The provincial government is the largest employer in the city, followed by Memorial University.
• Sport Scene: There's nothing (major) in the summer, CPL would be unopposed and could thrive with rivalries with Halifax and Moncton.

A stadium at the heart of St.John's could draw an attendance average of 7k per season. As shown above, corporate support, provincial economy and individual purchasing power is not the problem for that market. CPL will have to get people to watch the league and see the team and the demographics seems more than right which gives good reasons to be optimistic. A Halifax rivalry and perhaps Moncton would just put this at a all new level

[m-g-williams]

Not to nitpick, but those economic/employment stats are seriously out-of-date. Oil production in the province has been declining for some time now, and the slump in oil prices has really hit the province hard, driven up unemployment and resulted in much bleaker budgets than in the past. I was lucky enough to live there for a few years just before the peak, but going back now and talking to people back on the island, it's a whole different story.

I seriously hope that Beirne has some sort of corporate deal/sponsorship in the works for travel, because that would 100% change my outlook on this. If he's that confident, I'm just hoping and praying that this turns out to be the case.

Also, when citing ethnic origin . . . you forgot to include the appropriate breakdown of townies, baymen and skeets.

Edited July 20, 2017 by m-g-williams

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

Paul Beirne was quite adamant that travel cost weren't a concern for the league.

 

I wouldn't quite say that. He said it was an unavoidable reality for the league that they have to plan for. 

[-Hammer-]

On 6/5/2017 at 11:53 AM, ironcub14 said:

That's a fantastic article, and I totally stand corrected then on MLSE's intention to move to Hamilton, I didn't follow Waking the Red or anything like that back in 2013 Have a better understanding of all this historical context cuz of this article, thanks for sharing.

So really, in 2013, it was really the Ti-Cats against the world, eh? Do I correctly remember that the Ti-Cats were very close to landing a NASL team in summer 2015, but losing out, or conceding, to Puerto Rico?

 

If I recall, the Ti-Cats were just about the jump onto the NASL boat and then the Traffic scandal hit (that or Young had some inside info having previously been a part NASL owner of the Railhawks) and that went south, which then became the driver for Young to start the CanPL. I know he sent a survey asking people what they wanted in a pro soccer team, and everyone I knew was pretty adamant it not be a farm or play in the USL (because it would be perceived as a farm) but as Hamilton's team first and foremost.

When council rejected the Lynx, I think one of the Councillors hinted at not wanting just a small farm team, but the bigger reason why council cited rejecting them was that their plan was a mess. They hadn't had authorization yet from the CSA or the USL to play in the USL, they were still in the process of becoming TFC2 and they didn't really have a lot of numbers when questioned by council. It was very clear that they threw something together in a rush as a long shot to maintain soccer exclusivity in the region, and the city, not wanting to alienate the Ti-Cats and potentially uncork further stadium debate.

[Initial B]

So how many cities are we looking at right now?

Certain: Hamilton, Winnipeg

Almost Certain: Halifax

Likely: ?

Rumored: Burnaby, Kelowna, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, London, K-W, Mississauga, Vaughan, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City, Moncton, St John's  

Anything missing?

Edited July 20, 2017 by Initial B

[Complete Homer]

5 minutes ago, Initial B said:

So how many cities are we looking at right now?

Certain: Hamilton, Winnipeg

Almost Certain: Halifax

Likely: ?

Rumored: Burnaby, Kelowna, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, London, K-W, Mississauga, Vaughan, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City, Moncton, St John's  

Anything missing?

I'd put KW into the likely but not totally confirmed, given how openly the owners are talking but it seems like the stadium is a question 

Saskatchewan seems almost certain or likely, depending on your perspective. But publicly saying they are looking at a 15-20M stadium, holding a public info session, etc, I'd say they are as certain as Halifax was just before city council approved the stadium

[ironcub14]

1 hour ago, -Hammer- said:

If I recall, the Ti-Cats were just about the jump onto the NASL boat and then the Traffic scandal hit (that or Young had some inside info having previously been a part NASL owner of the Railhawks) and that went south, which then became the driver for Young to start the CanPL. I know he sent a survey asking people what they wanted in a pro soccer team, and everyone I knew was pretty adamant it not be a farm or play in the USL (because it would be perceived as a farm) but as Hamilton's team first and foremost.

When council rejected the Lynx, I think one of the Councillors hinted at not wanting just a small farm team, but the bigger reason why council cited rejecting them was that their plan was a mess. They hadn't had authorization yet from the CSA or the USL to play in the USL, they were still in the process of becoming TFC2 and they didn't really have a lot of numbers when questioned by council. It was very clear that they threw something together in a rush as a long shot to maintain soccer exclusivity in the region, and the city, not wanting to alienate the Ti-Cats and potentially uncork further stadium debate.

That summer 2015 was a deep learning period for me and many Ottawa fans. Thanks for the greater insight into Hamilton/Lynx/Bob Young, cheers.

[ironcub14]

Saw this on twitterz and reddit but not here, for anybody who hasn't seen it yet.

http://leaderpost.com/sports/soccer/saskatchewan-franchise-proposed-for-new-soccer-league

Lol it's the same article as the other one from Leader Post nvm.

Edited July 21, 2017 by ironcub14

[Kent]

On 20/07/2017 at 0:33 PM, Initial B said:

So how many cities are we looking at right now?

Certain: Hamilton, Winnipeg

Almost Certain: Halifax

Likely: ?

Rumored: Burnaby, Kelowna, Edmonton, Calgary, Saskatoon, Regina, London, K-W, Mississauga, Vaughan, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City, Moncton, St John's  

Anything missing?

I think some of those rumoured ones are actually places where fans are hoping there will be a team. I might be wrong, but I don't think there has been any non fan-generated rumours about Mississauga or Vaughan. Possibly also Kelowna?