Canadian Nationalization Countdown

[shermanator]

If we're going to nationalize someone, it better be someone we can use for more than a few caps here or there, or someone that can vastly improve the squad during their limited time. Camara is not one of those players.

[shermanator]

To add to my point earlier, someone like Marky Delgado COULD fit the bill of someone who could benefit the national team for a number of years if he doesn't get a US call up in the next few years. He just re-signed with TFC today to a multi year deal at age 21, and has shown often (but definitely not always) that he is a competent MLS player.

I'm really not much of a fan of the nationalization process, but these are the types of players that should be included in the conversation, as opposed to players like Camara who are on the downside of a career that has never been at a very high level at any point.

[El Hombre]

16 minutes ago, shermanator said:

To add to my point earlier, someone like Marky Delgado COULD fit the bill of someone who could benefit the national team for a number of years if he doesn't get a US call up in the next few years. He just re-signed with TFC today to a multi year deal at age 21, and has shown often (but definitely not always) that he is a competent MLS player.

I'm really not much of a fan of the nationalization process, but these are the types of players that should be included in the conversation, as opposed to players like Camara who are on the downside of a career that has never been at a very high level at any point.

But but but, I just heard, from a completely objective source, that Camara is the greatest defender in all of MLS!  Also if Buffon can still play at 38, there is no reason why a generational talent like Camara can't play until at least 45.

[Blackdude]

2 hours ago, shermanator said:

To add to my point earlier, someone like Marky Delgado COULD fit the bill of someone who could benefit the national team for a number of years if he doesn't get a US call up in the next few years. He just re-signed with TFC today to a multi year deal at age 21, and has shown often (but definitely not always) that he is a competent MLS player.

I'm really not much of a fan of the nationalization process, but these are the types of players that should be included in the conversation, as opposed to players like Camara who are on the downside of a career that has never been at a very high level at any point.

There's no way Delgado can play for us. Unless he has a Canadian grandparent.

[C2SKI]

Not that it means much but, according to Audi, Camara is ranked second among MLS right backs this season.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/10/19/audi-player-index-who-are-best-right-backs-mls?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=News&utm_campaign=Unpaid

[shermanator]

53 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

There's no way Delgado can play for us. Unless he has a Canadian grandparent.

Does his playing for the US youth teams prevent him from achieving the following?

Any Player who ... [assumes] a new nationality and who has not played international football [in a match ... in an official competition of any category or any type of football for one Association] shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfills one of the following conditions:
(a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

Edited October 19, 2016 by shermanator

[Grizzly]

42 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

Not that it means much but, according to Audi, Camara is ranked second among MLS right backs this season.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2016/10/19/audi-player-index-who-are-best-right-backs-mls?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=News&utm_campaign=Unpaid

Is this the completely objective source you heard from El Hombre? I don't know whether he really is the second best right back in MLS right now but he has played very well this year. It is really a shame that we could not find anyone decent at this position or who even played this as his natural position while at the same time we had one of the best right backs in MLS who seems to have fulfilled all the requirements for citizenship and wanted to play for us. I hope we develop several right backs over the next 4 years but I am not confident enough that we will do so that I would turn away a good player at that position who may still be playing in 4 years time. That does not mean he should get 100% of the playing time at the exclusion of all younger developing players but he should be in the picture if and when he is eligible. Or we could exclude him and risk having a defensive liability at RB who can't move the ball forward like we did for this WCQ.

[Blackdude]

Just now, shermanator said:

Does his playing for the US youth teams prevent him from achieving the following?

(d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

Yes, because he played for the US before having lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 in Canada.

[Complete Homer]

For me, if he's enthusiastic, there's not a lot of harm of bringing him on board. It gives us a decent RB (with occasional CB duties) for next gold cup, gives us a depth option after if he's still kicking  (better to have an aging backup option than no backup option), and lends another pro-CMNT voice to the IMFC locker room. 

Unless you are opposed to naturalized players for a philosophical reason, the only real cost is the inability to blood Aird in a major international tournament. 

It's not a huge deal either way. It's a small benefit with a smaller cost. 

[deschamp86]

I don't know why people think its such a big deal. He has already said that he plans on staying here after he finishes his career, so its not like he is a mercenary type player who would just be doing it to play international soccer

[Stryker911]

I don't get why anyone would be against any player that is good enough to play for us and wants to. Aren't we trying to win? 

[Ngravs9]

Does anyone know what's happening with kofie opare I mean not the greatest but could be used as an option 

 

* Nevermind I read up on it and he lived in Canada for 4 years not 5...

Edited October 20, 2016 by Ngravs9

[Obinna]

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Blackdude said:

There's no way Delgado can play for us. Unless he has a Canadian grandparent.

Furthermore, he has never even expressed an interest. At least Camara has a desire to play for us, plus he has lived in Canada much longer than Marky.

[BCM]

22 hours ago, Ngravs9 said:

Does anyone know what's happening with kofie opare I mean not the greatest but could be used as an option 

 

* Nevermind I read up on it and he lived in Canada for 4 years not 5...

The CSA and player have done a lot of work on this in terms of getting a waiver over the last few years - I believe he may now be eligible but others may have further and better information.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2016 by BCM

[BradMack]

On 10/19/2016 at 11:23 AM, shermanator said:

If we're going to nationalize someone, it better be someone we can use for more than a few caps here or there, or someone that can vastly improve the squad during their limited time. Camara is not one of those players.

I think having a REAL right back would qualify as vastly improving our squad... Henry played RB in our last round and was either directly or partially responsible for 3 goals against. 2 against Mexico and the game winner in San Pedro Sula. Aird is also not a real defender yet and it is easy to compare Camara and Aird because they play against the same players. Camara looks so much more comfortable there than Aird. Who are you putting in at RB for the Gold Cup that isn't a massive downgrade from Camara? 

[BradMack]

If Anyone can't see that Camara is a massive upgrade for us at right fullback they are clearly bias against naturalized players. I'm a TFC fan and it excites me that he wants to play for Canada. The guy is Canadian, why not give him a shot. Do you want to lose? Our rightback situation cost us 3 goals in our elimination round this year, we could be in the Hex. 

[hamiltonfan]

8 hours ago, BradMack said:

If Anyone can't see that Camara is a massive upgrade for us at right fullback they are clearly bias against naturalized players. I'm a TFC fan and it excites me that he wants to play for Canada. The guy is Canadian, why not give him a shot. Do you want to lose? Our rightback situation cost us 3 goals in our elimination round this year, we could be in the Hex. 

This ! 

[shermanator]

10 hours ago, BradMack said:

I think having a REAL right back would qualify as vastly improving our squad... Henry played RB in our last round and was either directly or partially responsible for 3 goals against. 2 against Mexico and the game winner in San Pedro Sula. Aird is also not a real defender yet and it is easy to compare Camara and Aird because they play against the same players. Camara looks so much more comfortable there than Aird. Who are you putting in at RB for the Gold Cup that isn't a massive downgrade from Camara? 

This is all kind of a moot argument until Camara has his passport, which he doesn't as far as I am aware. Is he eligible to be called today? If not, then it's just a cry for a player who can't suit up anyways.

I would agree that having a proper RB would help the national team. But Camara is not that fit as of today. And this isn't an argument against Canada nationalizing players, it's an argument over whether Camara should be nationalized with the purpose of making the national team, which I whole heartedly disagree with. I don't think it benefits the national team to be having players over 30 make their debuts.

If we're so desperate for a "real RB", call up Kadin Chung.

[farrelld]

11 hours ago, BradMack said:

I think having a REAL right back would qualify as vastly improving our squad... Henry played RB in our last round and was either directly or partially responsible for 3 goals against. 2 against Mexico and the game winner in San Pedro Sula. Aird is also not a real defender yet and it is easy to compare Camara and Aird because they play against the same players. Camara looks so much more comfortable there than Aird. Who are you putting in at RB for the Gold Cup that isn't a massive downgrade from Camara? 

 

Ignoring the fact Camara isn't eligible yet and imagining he can play for Canada.

Camara isn't a real RB his primary position is CB like Henry but because he plays there with Montreal quite often he has become more used to playing RB. Aird started as an attacking winger and moved to RB with his club only recently so he is still learning the defensive side that Camara already knew.

If you want the best chance to win the gold cup I think you go with Camara starting over Aird.

If you want to use the gold cup to help develop players for WCQ I would start Aird over Camara.

[C2SKI]

12 hours ago, BradMack said:

I think having a REAL right back would qualify as vastly improving our squad... Henry played RB in our last round and was either directly or partially responsible for 3 goals against. 2 against Mexico and the game winner in San Pedro Sula. Aird is also not a real defender yet and it is easy to compare Camara and Aird because they play against the same players. Camara looks so much more comfortable there than Aird. Who are you putting in at RB for the Gold Cup that isn't a massive downgrade from Camara? 

To be fair to Fraser, Vancouver has only allowed one goal in the last 3 games he's started. He has his drawbacks, but I think he's shown improvement as a defender. That being said, I still haven't seen the game against Morocco, but he was honoured with player of the match.

[BradMack]

6 hours ago, shermanator said:

This is all kind of a moot argument until Camara has his passport, which he doesn't as far as I am aware. Is he eligible to be called today? If not, then it's just a cry for a player who can't suit up anyways.

I would agree that having a proper RB would help the national team. But Camara is not that fit as of today. And this isn't an argument against Canada nationalizing players, it's an argument over whether Camara should be nationalized with the purpose of making the national team, which I whole heartedly disagree with. I don't think it benefits the national team to be having players over 30 make their debuts.

If we're so desperate for a "real RB", call up Kadin Chung.

I guess I just want to go for it in this Gold Cup with the roster we could potentially have. I'm not really thinking of Camara winning a ton of caps. I just think he could make a big difference in the cup if he can obtain his passport by then, which he should. I understand where you're coming from about him being too old to have a long term impact, but I don't see the harm in having him around for a couple of years just until an Aird or Chung is ready to win the spot from him. It's not like these younger players will just stop developing if they arent starting for Canada, that's what their clubs are for. 

[Obinna]

10 hours ago, shermanator said:

This is all kind of a moot argument until Camara has his passport, which he doesn't as far as I am aware. Is he eligible to be called today? If not, then it's just a cry for a player who can't suit up anyways.

I would agree that having a proper RB would help the national team. But Camara is not that fit as of today. And this isn't an argument against Canada nationalizing players, it's an argument over whether Camara should be nationalized with the purpose of making the national team, which I whole heartedly disagree with. I don't think it benefits the national team to be having players over 30 make their debuts.

If we're so desperate for a "real RB", call up Kadin Chung.

With all due respect, I really disagree with all of this, starting with the Kadin Chung comment. He may be a "real RB" (whatever that is), but he's not even part of the first team in Vancouver, let alone ahead of Aird. If Aird, not being a "real RB" is still ahead of Kadin Chung, then being a "real RB" is obviously not an important factor, is it?

Secondly, you say the argument is about whether or not we should nationalize Camara for national team purposes, and you are clearly against that. Then you must be against Arfield being nationalized as well? Or, is it okay for Arfield because he fills a hole that we need to fill (I'm sure you see where I'm going here..)?

Thirdly, what do you mean by saying Camara is not fit as of today? That he is not qualified? That he is not good enough? That he is too old?

[Fastfeet2]

11 hours ago, shermanator said:

This is all kind of a moot argument until Camara has his passport, which he doesn't as far as I am aware. Is he eligible to be called today? If not, then it's just a cry for a player who can't suit up anyways.

I would agree that having a proper RB would help the national team. But Camara is not that fit as of today. And this isn't an argument against Canada nationalizing players, it's an argument over whether Camara should be nationalized with the purpose of making the national team, which I whole heartedly disagree with. I don't think it benefits the national team to be having players over 30 make their debuts.

If we're so desperate for a "real RB", call up Kadin Chung.

Graziano Pelle (Italy)

Rickie Lambert (England)

Carlos Sanchez (Uruguay)

Wes Morgan (Jamaica)

Are some examples of players that made their debuts after or close to 30. Its worth noting all these nations have a bigger, more talented player pool than us. 

[shermanator]

3 hours ago, Obinna said:

With all due respect, I really disagree with all of this, starting with the Kadin Chung comment. He may be a "real RB" (whatever that is), but he's not even part of the first team in Vancouver, let alone ahead of Aird. If Aird, not being a "real RB" is still ahead of Kadin Chung, then being a "real RB" is obviously not an important factor, is it?

Secondly, you say the argument is about whether or not we should nationalize Camara for national team purposes, and you are clearly against that. Then you must be against Arfield being nationalized as well? Or, is it okay for Arfield because he fills a hole that we need to fill (I'm sure you see where I'm going here..)?

Thirdly, what do you mean by saying Camara is not fit as of today? That he is not qualified? That he is not good enough? That he is too old?

I feel like you need to read all of my posts on Camara in the last few days, not just this one, to see where my overall opinion is on this.

Regarding the "real RB" comment, that was in response to BradMack insisting that Camara would instantly be the best fit because he's a "real RB" (which was later debunked by farrelld as he's primarily been a CB). If we want a player who is a true RB (ie. was developed as a RB), then Chung is the best option we have. Unless you want to consider Eddie Edward, but I think he would have been in the national team by now if he were really desired. 

Regarding your second point, I stated at the top of this page that I am in favour of nationalization if it fits one of two criteria. 1 - That the player we nationalize will be around for a long time (I would say at the very minimum one full cycle) or 2 - That the player we nationalize is a big upgrade on what we currently have at their position. Camara will be 33 when the next WCQ starts, and 36 when the 2022 World Cup is held. I don't see him even being around at the start of the first cycle. Regarding Arfield, I would argue he fits the second criteria in that he's a big upgrade in the midfield over what we had prior.

Regarding Camara not being a fit, I think my argument on the second point explains why I don't see he's a fit. If Camara were to get his passport before the Gold Cup, you could probably convince me that he should be called. 

In general, I am not a big supporter of the nationalization process. I think we should be focusing on developing Canadian talent from the grassroots level on through the youth teams and into the senior team. If in the end, Camara gets his passport and puts on the red and white, that's fine by me. But we should really be focusing on why we haven't developed a RB, and address that instead.

Edited October 22, 2016 by shermanator

[BradMack]

13 hours ago, farrelld said:

Ignoring the fact Camara isn't eligible yet and imagining he can play for Canada.

Camara isn't a real RB his primary position is CB like Henry but because he plays there with Montreal quite often he has become more used to playing RB. Aird started as an attacking winger and moved to RB with his club only recently so he is still learning the defensive side that Camara already knew.

If you want the best chance to win the gold cup I think you go with Camara starting over Aird.

If you want to use the gold cup to help develop players for WCQ I would start Aird over Camara.

 

2 hours ago, shermanator said:

Regarding the "real RB" comment, that was in response to BradMack insisting that Camara would instantly be the best fit because he's a "real RB" (which was later debunked by farrelld as he's primarily been a CB). If we want a player who is a true RB (ie. was developed as a RB), then Chung is the best option we have. Unless you want to consider Eddie Edward, but I think he would have been in the national team by now if he were really desired. 

I wouldn't say it's been debunked.. Camara has 67 starts at RB in his MLS career, compared to 22 at CB... I would say he is a right back. Kevin McKenna started his career as a striker but I don't think anyone is going to say he isnt a center back... Atiba has played all over the field in his career, he found his best position when he got to Besiktas. 

To me a "real right back" isn't neccisarily someone whos played there their whole life. It is someone who is comfortable playing the position. You can tell by watching Henry play he's not comfortable, struggles going forward and doesn't know where he should be on defense. Aird is much better than Henry but he isn't as strong a 1v1 defender and often gets beat in MLS. 

Fraser Aird could be the right back of the future, and I hope he is because his crossing is real quality and might be the best on the CMNT. But right now it is pretty obvious he's a converted midfielder learning how to play defense. He isn't a true defender *yet*. In my opinion the national team playing in official competition is not the place to let players learn new positions. Let him develop at his club before throwing him to the wolves at such a high level on a big stage.