The Importance of Jr. Hoilett

[narduch]

45 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So oversensitive. 

I mean, at least I am old enough to have watched the entire series last time the Leafs won the Cup.

I keep saying 2017 is basically 1967 at TFC

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

It makes sense for both sides to reassess after the season. Junior has never played club ball over here and his whole life I presume is back in the UK. Smart to see how he likes the league, the club, the city, the travel, how it fits in with his personal life, etc. And for Vancouver you want to see how Junior adapts to MLS, how durable he is, how he gets on with the group, how he likes the club, etc. Vancouver will likely try and get him and Richie to commit for longer I am sure, if they can.

It's win-win. It's a low risk move by Vancouver. He's really only a depth/bench player for the remainder of this year (given needing to get him in to game shape and how little time is left). For him, he can get some playing time in and take (probably) one last crack at a contract in England in January.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Watchmen

[An Observer]

12 hours ago, narduch said:

I keep saying 2017 is basically 1967 at TFC

Luckily I won’t be alive to know whether your premonition comes true 

[Unnamed Trialist]

18 hours ago, narduch said:

I keep saying 2017 is basically 1967 at TFC

To be fair, TFC should have had another, and I would have been pleased if they'd beaten Sounders.

Fact is, the Whitecaps won a North American league, and TFC did as well. So in the most important part of the trophy case, both have a league trophy. Tied. 

TFC have more V-Cups than the Whitecaps, to their credit, but they are not even the winningest team of the Voyageurs Cup, after 22 years.

This is why the @Shway insecurity worn on your sleeve show is so maudlin.

[RS]

TFC isn't 22 years old, so it would be tough for them to be the winningest team in the Voyageurs Cup while two other teams had a six-year head start.

In the Canadian Championship era (2008 onward), TFC is the winningest team both by titles (8) and matches won (28).

TFC also has a Supporters Shield, which is arguably harder to win than MLS Cup.

As for the Whitecaps, I'm definitely interested to see how the three Canadian vets fare for the rest of the campaign, and whether Junior re-signs next season. He seems to be a bit of a nomad who goes wherever feels right at the time, so I'm curious to see if the Whitecaps are the right fit for him after this brief "trial" period for both parties.

[costarg]

2 minutes ago, RS said:

TFC isn't 22 years old, so it would be tough for them to be the winningest team in the Voyageurs Cup while two other teams had a six-year head start.

In the Canadian Championship era (2008 onward), TFC is the winningest team both by titles (8) and matches won (28).

TFC also has a Supporters Shield, which is arguably harder to win than MLS Cup.

As for the Whitecaps, I'm definitely interested to see how the three Canadian vets fare for the rest of the campaign, and whether Junior re-signs next season. He seems to be a bit of a nomad who goes wherever feels right at the time, so I'm curious to see if the Whitecaps are the right fit for him after this brief "trial" period for both parties.

Hmmmm.  Success can and is measured several different ways.  Not just winning seasons.  We can also count how many last place finishes each team has had.  

(Just trying to relieve my boredom from lack of matches by lighting matches.....) 

[RS]

20 minutes ago, costarg said:

Hmmmm.  Success can and is measured several different ways.  Not just winning seasons.  We can also count how many last place finishes each team has had.  

(Just trying to relieve my boredom from lack of matches by lighting matches.....) 

Ok but I was directly responding to a post about TFC's success in the Voyageurs Cup/Canadian Championship and their North American trophies.

Given how terrible TFC has been for very long stretches of its existence, it's actually a bit of an indictment on the other two MLS teams that TFC has done so well in the V Cup.

Or maybe all three Canadian MLS teams have failed to live up to their respective potentials. There's no reason why Montreal hasn't had more than a single decent playoff run in MLS (2016), or that Vancouver has only finished higher than ninth overall once in 12 MLS seasons (2015).

If 2017 is 1967 for TFC, then what are the above listed years for CFM and VWFC? Do they even have a 2017 to point to?

All three teams should be doing much better given the support and talent they've had over the years.

How's that for lighting a match...?

[Unnamed Trialist]

13 minutes ago, costarg said:

Hmmmm.  Success can and is measured several different ways.  Not just winning seasons.  We can also count how many last place finishes each team has had.  

(Just trying to relieve my boredom from lack of matches by lighting matches.....) 

TFC is well ahead in the race to have the worst record in relation to budget in the history of the MLS. Now that is something to call home about.

[RS]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

TFC is well ahead in the race to have the worst record in relation to budget in the history of the MLS. Now that is something to call home about.

Not only that, they've won that race several times in their existence.

EDIT: Miami may actually "win" this race if they fail to make the playoffs this year, with Messi alone making double TFC's entire budget. But overall I actually agree with your point.

Edited September 15, 2023 by RS

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 minutes ago, RS said:

Not only that, they've won that race several times in their existence.

EDIT: Miami may actually "win" this race if they fail to make the playoffs this year, with Messi alone making double TFC's entire budget. But overall I actually agree with your point.

As you know I'm a Messi fan, but I would like nothing better for Miami to miss the playoffs. 

I don't think I have liked a team from Florida, in any sport, nor Texas, rarely California, never New York. So screw the guy, it'd be fun if they fail. Let soccer win the day, always better for the game to win out over any individual in it.

Frankly, this business of everyone falling over in awe and letting Inter take the points from them is really irritating.

[BearcatSA]

51 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

TFC is well ahead in the race to have the worst record in relation to budget in the history of the MLS. Now that is something to call home about.

You can be competitive and a tough out in this league with smart scouting in player acquisition, having a solid tactical DNA, and using your Homegrowns effectively.  You don't need to break the bank to do that.

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

19 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

You can be competitive and a tough out in this league with smart scouting in player acquisition, having a solid tactical DNA, and using your Homegrowns effectively.  You don't need to break the bank to do that.

 

I thought Insigne was an iffy signing because I have seen him play, and not just one tournament when the entire national team was playing well. I also have some idea of his character, his lack of leadership. 

Apart from that, TFC probably needs to be reworked from the top down. The entire philosophy is erroneous.

[Shway]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

To be fair, TFC should have had another, and I would have been pleased if they'd beaten Sounders.

Fact is, the Whitecaps won a North American league, and TFC did as well. So in the most important part of the trophy case, both have a league trophy. Tied. 

TFC have more V-Cups than the Whitecaps, to their credit, but they are not even the winningest team of the Voyageurs Cup, after 22 years.

This is why the @Shway insecurity worn on your sleeve show is so maudlin.

The bolded is laughable. They won the second division north american league. You would probably say Barcelona and Madrid are on the same level of success too right? right? 

Who else has a Supporters Shield? Who else has an MLS Cup?  Who else has X amount more players sent to the national team as a result of their club?  

Let's just talk straight facts. 

Yes TFC has spent way more, but that's what separates the difference between the haves and the have-nots. 

I promise you, there aren't awards for these stupid takes like " TFC is well ahead in the race to have the worst record in relation to budget in the history of the MLS"....but since you know it all if there are, please let me know and I'll stand corrected. 

[narduch]

10 minutes ago, Shway said:

The bolded is laughable. They won the second division north american league. You would probably say Barcelona and Madrid are on the same level of success too right? right? 

Who else has a Supporters Shield? Who else has an MLS Cup?  Who else has X amount more players sent to the national team as a result of their club?  

Let's just talk straight facts. 

Yes TFC has spent way more, but that's what separates the difference between the haves and the have-nots. 

I promise you, there aren't awards for these stupid takes like " TFC is well ahead in the race to have the worst record in relation to budget in the history of the MLS"....but since you know it all if there are, please let me know and I'll stand corrected. 

In 1979 NASL wasn't the top division in North America?

[Shway]

11 minutes ago, narduch said:

In 1979 NASL wasn't the top division in North America?

you're right...I didn't realize we were going that far back.

[Obinna]

Even still, should we compare winning MLS cup in 2017 to winning a league from over 40 years ago that no longer exists? It's not particularly relevant to the modern era. It's kind of like when the USA finished "3rd" at the World Cup. Sure it happened, but it's so long ago that nobody really holds that up proudly as a major accomplisment. Different era.  

[Corazon]

Yes, TFC is a dumpster fire right now but if any team in any other North American league made 3 finals in the past 8 seasons, it would be impressive.  Too much hate amongst the three Canadian teams here. 

If not for Frei & TFC's atrocious record at penalties, they'd have two championships.  Their last appearance in the final was a bit of a lucky run to the final and really never deserved it over Seattle.

As for Hoilett, I'd assume he will likely find a Championship team in January that's looking for a veteran with experience for 6 months.  As a Toronto FC fan, I'd love to see him come home next season but Herdman is going to have to significantly improve this squad in the offseason to lure a player like Hoilett home.  Best of luck to him for the remainder of the season, along with Laryea, Adekugbe, Ahmed and the other Canadians in Vancouver & Montreal.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Corazon

[Kent]

13 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Even still, should we compare winning MLS cup in 2017 to winning a league from over 40 years ago that no longer exists? It's not particularly relevant to the modern era. It's kind of like when the USA finished "3rd" at the World Cup. Sure it happened, but it's so long ago that nobody really holds that up proudly as a major accomplisment. Different era.  

I'll defend UT's right to using a 44 year old Championship in a different league in an argument. If we got picky about that kind of thing we would have to get rid of all of the Maple Leafs Stanley Cup wins and 14 of Montreal's for being in a 6 (or fewer) team league. More importantly, we wouldn't be able to claim an Olympic gold medal in men's soccer if we had dubious championships expire after a certain amount of time.

[Obinna]

2 minutes ago, Kent said:

I'll defend UT's right to using a 44 year old Championship in a different league in an argument. If we got picky about that kind of thing we would have to get rid of all of the Maple Leafs Stanley Cup wins and 14 of Montreal's for being in a 6 (or fewer) team league. More importantly, we wouldn't be able to claim an Olympic gold medal in men's soccer if we had dubious championships expire after a certain amount of time.

That's the one I was thinking of - but got lazy and just brought up the USA instead. Never a bad option putting them down, you know? 

[RS]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

In 1979 NASL wasn't the top division in North America?

So 1979 is the Whitecaps’ 1967 then.

[narduch]

Just now, RS said:

So 1979 is the Whitecaps’ 1967 then.

I know you think this is funny. But does it appear the Whitecaps are resting on their laurels like TFC does?

[RS]

2 minutes ago, narduch said:

I know you think this is funny. But does it appear the Whitecaps are resting on their laurels like TFC does?

It’s not funny. I’m trying to understand your continued pushing of this 1967 narrative. The Whitecaps are an ok team now but they’ve spent nearly their entire MLS existence as mediocre also-rans, so why shouldn’t the 1967 label apply to them too?

More pointedly, if you think TFC’s resting in their laurels then I have no idea what to tell you.

Have they completely missed the boat basically since Vanney and Bezbatchenko left? Absolutely. They failed spectacularly and Bill Manning should’ve been given his walking papers years ago.

But no serious person would look at what TFC did over the last 3-4 years and conclude that they are resting on their laurels.

They swung for the fences and struck out. Aside from Insigne and Bernardeschi they brought in Kaye, Hedges, Johnson, Laryea, Petretta, Criscito, etc. at considerable expense, not to mention Bob Bradley. You can argue whether they were they right moves but a team that’s resting in it’s laurels doesn’t spend those kinds of resources if they aren’t trying to succeed.

[narduch]

6 minutes ago, RS said:

It’s not funny. I’m trying to understand your continued pushing of this 1967 narrative. The Whitecaps are an ok team now but they’ve spent nearly their entire MLS existence as mediocre also-rans, so why shouldn’t the 1967 label apply to them too?

More pointedly, if you think TFC’s resting in their laurels then I have no idea what to tell you.

Have they completely missed the boat basically since Vanney and Bezbatchenko left? Absolutely. They failed spectacularly and Bill Manning should’ve been given his walking papers years ago.

But no serious person would look at what TFC did over the last 3-4 years and conclude that they are resting on their laurels.

They swung for the fences and struck out. Aside from Insigne and Bernardeschi they brought in Kaye, Hedges, Johnson, Laryea, Petretta, Criscito, etc. at considerable expense, not to mention Bob Bradley. You can argue whether they were they right moves but a team that’s resting in it’s laurels doesn’t spend those kinds of resources if they aren’t trying to succeed.

Ok. But why not quote the direct comment then if it irks you so much. I disagree completely with you. TFC the organization lives off 2017 just like the Leafs live off 1967.

It's actually a bit laughable how hard you try to white knight TFC though.

And I will argue as long as Manning remains in charge of TFC fans should be worried about the direction of the club. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by narduch

[BearcatSA]

1 hour ago, Shway said:

Yes, TFC has spent way more, but that's what separates the difference between the haves and the have-nots. 

And there are many high spending teams in this league that have significantly to spectacularly underachieved while teams with less financial clout have been consistently competitive for the reasons I outlined in an earlier post here.

[RS]

8 minutes ago, narduch said:

It's actually a bit laughable how hard you try to white knight TFC though.

Nah, what's laughable is how much you hate a team that you have season tickets for.

I'm sorry facts and nuance bother you. I don't live in a world where everything is 100% good or 100% bad.

Either way, I must be a shitty white knight considering what I've written about Bill Manning and the TFC organization as a whole in this very thread. I even had UT 'like' one of my posts talking about TFC's historical ineptitude.

It's too bad you are only able to read the things that confirm your biases about me though. Must be a bug in the forum software.