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Incorporating the Voyageurs


Jarrek

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I'm going to raise this issue again, I feel that we should be run in a very similar fashion to the Sam's Army. We should incorporate as a non-profit organization. That way we're more accountable with our funds, more organized, etc. We could also charge anywhere from $5-$10 for memberships.

What do you guys think?

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I support this initiative.

However, in our present form it isn't beneficial. If we are incorporating, and charging for membership, then we should have some type of leadership structure to talk to media etc. Also, members should have voting rights on certain issues. Furthermore, we need a clear mandate.

I think it is long overdue.

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Incorporating the Voyageurs

By BF

Obligations:

To Incorporate, you need the following: a constitution, bylaws, a list of directors with their addresses and occupations, and an address for the Voyageurs. We would also need to make sure that the name Voyageurs is available. Not beyond our reach at all.

We would have certain filing and tax obligations, and we would be able to issue receipts for tax purposes.

The key issue with incorporating is that we would be collecting membership fees and we would be accountable for those funds. If we did this under Part II of the Canada Corporations Act (Federal Incorporation), any funds/ profits the Voyageurs made must be held under 'The Voyageurs' and could not be distributed to the members. Again, not a problem, we'd have to open a Voyageurs account and have a Treasurer or something.

Benefits:

The legal benefit is that the Voyageurs would acquire the powers of an individual, an independent ongoing existence seperate from its members.

The main benefit to the Voyageurs would be that we would be a more serious organization and thus be taken more seriously AND we would have funds to take on certain projects. We could use membership fees for projects to grow the sport/ increase awareness of our teams. We all want World Cup Qualifying to be shown live and for the media to cover the team, as well as a host of other things. Its not going to happen unless the Voyageurs force it to happen, and money and organization will help in that regard.

As long as there are others willing to put time and effort into this, I am all for incorporating and would not mind actually registering the Voyageurs myself- it would look good on my resume.

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Difficult questions would need to be answered before incorporating...who would be the directors (you need a minimum of four)? Who would be the officers? How would one obtain membership? Should there be different types of memberships? etc. The problem is that because we are scattered throughout the country it may be difficult to reach some sort of consensus on these and other issues.

Might not hurt to try though...

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A non-profit organization doesn't have to fill out a tax return unless it makes over $10,000 in revenue in one fiscal year, or if it has over $200,000 in assets.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/t4117/t4117-e.html#P126_4825

If we did incorporate into an NPO we wouldn't need to fill out a tax return, at least for now. I assume all the money the Voyageurs makes is through the adds on this site. And I'm pretty sure these adds don't even fully pay to keep this site running.

On the issue of whether we should or shouldn't incorporate, I don't care either way. But I'd be willing to help out if we do.

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I can prepare an NPO return in a few minutes. There's really nothing to it, assuming the financial information is available.

I will also compile financial statements if need be.

There are certain liability issues for the directors and, although the risk is very minimal, some employers would likely advise against taking such a position without liability insurance. That's at least a couple of thousand right there.

I'd be willing to donate some time on the accounting and tax side, but I think I agree with Daniel and Krammerhead at this point. I think the membership revenue would be extremely modest, and would entail many more obligations which, more than money, would involve time.

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I definitely support this project, and I will contribute financially to see it accomplished.

For me the most important aspect is better organization while still remaining inclusive to all. I think Daniel and Krammerhead bring up valid points, and we should look how we can raise funds without excluding people that may not want to contribute or may not be able to financially contribute.

Where would a good place to start? Perhaps with a formal proposal?

Edit: We're not going to make over $10,000 in one year or have assets over $200,000... We don't need to file any tax returns...

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I love the idea but wonder about the number of newbies we would be turning away just by having a membership fee. I know, I know, they could probably still surf around our site without paying, but just the idea of paying turns a lot of people off. Just think of how you felt the first time you went to a British football club page and found you had to sign in as a member, sometimes without even paying. I know that I felt it was too much bother and hence have never gone into any of the sites, although I at one point had a bud of interest. The same might well happen with this site - and since we are not huge in numbers at it stands I don't think we can risk losing anyone, regulars or newbies, under this proposed plan.

Aagain, I don't mind paying (see scarf project) to support our little "club", and if we had big numbers I think we would be stupid not to start organizing ourselves more professionally, like the the U-Sector. I just don't think we are there yet.

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I didn't know Sam's Army was incorporated. Do they have a membership fee? As a non-profit org would we even require a membership fee? Couldn't it be by donation? Just an idea.

Anyways, Nolando has a good point about those sites with membership fees and such. Kinda a pain in the ass, and with our "fragile" numbers (how many of us, anyways??) it might not be a good idea to have a membership fee.

That being said, I like the idea of at least looking into it seriously. If Canada qualifies for the World Cup in 2010 I would expect our numbers to swell, at which point it might a really good idea!

ps: Does Sam's Army have some sort of formal travel arrangments for supporters who are going to see the USA play? I know around here it's pretty much fend-for-yourself.

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I really don't see much benefit to incorporating. The mentioning of our recent protest article by several media outlets is about as much influence as we will ever have as a group incorporated or not. I think the things that will make us be taken seriously are whether we write good letters with valid points and our membership numbers not whether we are incorporated or not. The only other influence we have is as a supporters section but again I don't see incorporating increasing our influence in this area either. I think the chaotic way the forum operates is good and any attempt to create a more official organization will turn off a lot of people.

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Guest Jeffery S.
quote:Originally posted by Jarrek

I'm going to raise this issue again, I feel that we should be run in a very similar fashion to the Sam's Army. We should incorporate as a non-profit organization. That way we're more accountable with our funds, more organized, etc. We could also charge anywhere from $5-$10 for memberships.

What do you guys think?

Jarrek, since you are handling a lot of things internally, or have in the past (not sure of the current situation), perhaps you could just lay out some of the things that cause most stress and concern when it comes to keeping the site going. Because perhaps there are other ways to handle those problems without having to incorporate.

An example: there could be a separate financial-fund-raising committee, a few Voyageurs who overlook the numbers and maybe set up a campaign every year. Their job would be to look at finances, ensure everything is as clean and transparent as possible, and keep folks informed.

In the same way, setting up ad hoc committees or work groups for specific questions could be a measure that helps solve key questions without implying all the legal hassles of a more official status.

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Incorporating or not incorporating? The benefits depend on what the Voyageurs want to become.

If all it wants to do is run a website to consolidate support for the national team, then it probably is not worth the trouble. Developing and selling merchandise, etc. moves it a little more into the grey area.

However, if it wants to take a much more active role in the formal Canadian soccer structure, there are some benefits to consider:

- there can be a case made to be admitted as a member to the CSA. The CSA constitution allows national organizations with a soccer focus to be members. Being a legal entity and having a membership base would make it impossible for the CSA to ignore the Voyageurs.

- on a project like the Voyageur Cup, the Voyageurs could then apply for various government programs that might support such a venture. In this case, director's errors and ommissions insurance would be a necessity.

Again without plans for a greater role in Canadian soccer, it wouldn't be worth the trouble. As others have said, there are various pieces of paperwork the need to be done in order to establish a not-for-profit and to do the necessary reporting. There are also requirements for a board of directors and an annual general meeting. I think it is the ongoing management of the organization that is the most onerous and in other not-for profits I have been involved with, the bureaucratic tasks end up with a few overburdened individuals. A constitution is not that difficult to write albeit there are a number of issues that would need to be carefully considered (regional representation, size of the board, validity of online meetings, etc.) and incorporation is relatively straight forward.

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I agree with Jeffrey and CanuckOranje. If supporting the website is the main reason for incorporating then we can probably find other ways of addressing this. Do the Voyageurs want to become more political? If so then yes, we should become more a more formal organization.

Personally, I think there may be two distinct parts of the Voyageurs: the supporters group and the advocacy group. The recent open letter prompted by the failure of the CCA to name a coach indicates there are many willing to get more involved with the CSA and media. However, the silent majority (mostly those who just lurk) are likely to want the status quo: a virtual location to read about and discuss soccer and perhaps organize match get-togethers.

So, if there is interest go ahead and organize an advocacy group under a different name but keep the Voyageurs as a separate (or arm's length) entity for supporters of Canadian soccer.

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Well, I think it's sort of inevitable at some point. If for no other reason then to finance the continued operation of this web-site.

If 30-40 or 50 members sign up at a tenner each (per annum), I expect that would go a decent way towards paying for a chunk of the web-site's operating costs. Guessing we've got around 60 "hard-core" members and twice as many regulars. Think we can count on a fair slice of that membership to step up.

I mean what's $10 a year? One less six-pack in 2007? Damn.

Brought this up last time the subject came up but think we'd have to go with two types of memberships. One you buy, the other just the same as it's always been. Or at least put a section/feature on the Home Page which acknowledges those who've purchased a membership. Might be the only benefit they ever see but it would be something. A little recognition.

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As a suggestion, if it hasn't already been done, we could talk to someone who knows the history and ins and outs of Sam's Army to see how exactly they are structured, why they are structured that way, and any positives or negatives they've encountered as a result of their decisions.

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I am very happy to see this develop in this direction.I agree that we should have a structure.No and I am not applying for a job.I have done mine already.I am very curious how this will be set up and how many will join and pay as well. Hey i may even be a sponsor.oops did not sy that.

Again great idea and maybe Metro and GL being lawyers can have some structural and constitunional input.

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quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Brought this up last time the subject came up but think we'd have to go with two types of memberships. One you buy, the other just the same as it's always been.

I agree with you there. There is no way that it should cost money to join this forum. If that had been the case I would not have joined when I did. Now I am not saying that would be a loss for you guys, but I digress. Charging people to sign up at these forums would only make you lose possible members. But if you were to have an optional membership fee I would be all for that and I would sign up.

Of course I would want to make sure my hard earned money was going to a website that deserves it. Right now I can't say that this website does deserve it. The homepage seems to be a mess and the only person providing original content for it is a moderator. That's not good enough.

Most of the links at the site are "Under Construction", broken, or out of date. Again, not good enough.

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hmmmm, although it wouldn't be much of a perk, it would look to be a perk to newbies if I this was the only site where you could download download my canada game highlight packs, I'm guessing alot of people here are like me; likes the idea of contributing a bit but doesn't really care to get perks and whatnot, if the downloads were locked in a specific sub forum, people might think theres more there then there is on youtube (maybe I could make a guadalope comp to be original v board material and other losses, be more of a historical archive then a promotional campaign which is what my youtube is. anyway, i think the best thing to do is to keep the main forum free, and try and convince people it's the **** to be a double double platinum excelsior first class member (ahaha)

ohhhh and I'd need someone to help me out with a mail option (no credit cards)

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Guest speedmonk42

Don't lock up anything

Don't charge anything

But definitely incorporate.

This needs to be an official organization to go further, and we have a long way to go.

WCQ is next year and we want Canada home games.

We need a contract with the CSA and ticketmaster to give us a proper supporters section at BMO and capitalize on the RPB and U-Sector.

As an official organization we will find money, we don't need to charge for memberships. People will donate to an actual organization.

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Interesting points, all. Ray's point regarding the two "arms" of the Voyageurs is very important. We certainly cannot create the sort of forum and site that makes it difficult or unattractive for newbies--or even existing members--to join or stay. At the same time, many of us what to play a stronger role, whether it is advocacy or promotion or enterprise (or a combination of the three).

If we require a paid membership, then membership needs to have its priveleges. Access to the forum, though cool, is not enough. Access to the site, though excellent, is not enough.

If incorporating as a not-for-profit allows us to do other fundraising--other than gathering membership fees--then we would not have to rely on membership fees to float the boat, and as a result could offer anyone who is keen on playing a role in the active arm of the Voyageurs "special membership", for which each would pay a small annunal fee. In return, members would each have the right to vote on key motions, would be eligible for roles on the board etc., and might also have other special priveleges (ie. In time, perhaps we would be able to offer discounts on game tickets etc.)

But as many of you have suggested, we first need to determine what we want to achieve as an "official" entity, and then proceed from there. Personally, I'd love if we could find some way, aside from playing an advocacy role, to take on some of the marketing and promotion of our teams, especially for games played on our turf, and especially in a on-site, gameday role. I've always thought it would be cool to force ticketmaster to seat all the Canadian supporters in one large section, and then have our brave Voyageurs team up in small groups, spread out through the crowd, and teach the Canadian fans how to sing and cheer like proper football fans, leading them in song and chant etc. Maybe, if money was able, we could even pay these individuals a small fee for doing this.

Anyhow, I appreciate this discussion and thank Jarrek for raising the matter again.

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