Incorporating the Voyageurs

[River City]

Should we create a thread to debate what type of structure would work best? After a set amount of time, we could have the best options open for voting, then the vote.

Once the structure is set, then we could do a candidate's list for each position and vote for the candidates. It would be nice if this was done by the end of the U-20s. We could make an announcement and then formally register the group.

[Gordon]

There are a wide range of ideas and opinions about soccer in canada and what it needs on this board. There is not a whole lot that even the majority of the board would rally around. But I do a few roles that The Voyageurs might fill if we incorporate.

1) Block tickets. It is ridiculous how little the CSA does to accomodate canadian support.

2) Advocacy on behalf of all fans, irrespective of their membership with Voyageurs. Surely you don't think that Voyageurs are the only ones goign to the stadium and finding their seats occupied by fans supporting the otehr team. I am sure that our experiences are multiplied many times over.

3) Advocacy for a reformed CSA. The US has achieved success based on Cash and the implementation of a vertically integrated structure. Someone has to push for this becasue the provincial fifedoms sure won't.

4) CSA watchdog. Competence and professionalism must be demanded. We may not all agree on who the MNT coach shoul dbe, but we can all sure as the hell agree that the process sucked once again.

[difab]

As a new member of this forum, I wouldn't have a problem with a $10-$20 membership fee. I wish I would have discovered the site a lot sooner.

You could keep the forums free, but members could have voting rights to direction and action of the Voyageurs. If as a group, we could have influence on the CSA, the effort would be well worth it.

In addition, an incorporated group may be able to ensure Canadian supporters are considered first during ticket distribution. Although I am not in the GTA area, the BMO field should be a sea of red for every national team home game. We need to loud and proud in our backyard.

Other suggestions for funding the site, the sale of shirts, scarfs (sorry I missed that one) or other supporters merchandise. These are decisions that can be made by the board, if incorporated.

Good luck and I'm in....

[smeghead]

Im a RPB that went to last nights game. If it takes incorporating to make our national stadium "OUR" home im all for it.

[Ivan]

I'm in. Let me know if I can help.

[Johnnie Monster]

Double post, sorry.

[Johnnie Monster]

It is absolutely ridiculous that anyone should be required or feel obligated to pay any kind of fee to support the MNT. Introducing fees only fuels elitism and divisiveness amongst the ranks.

Further, anyone who thinks that incorporation will shield them from any kind of litigation arising from "wrongdoing" obviously has no background or knowledge relating to tort law whatsoever.

Somebody please kill this silly, silly enterprise before it gains any steam. Valuable fans and support will be lost by these ridiculous endeavours, guaranteed.

[Gian-Luca]

I don't like the idea either. I don't think any good will come out of it & I can see a lot of harm being caused by it. If people want the group to be organized, that's one thing, full on incorporation is another.

[CanadasBest]

I have to disagree with you Johnnie. (Heh, there's a first time for everything, right?) I think you bring up some valid points that I agree must be addressed when this project finally get's rolling the way it should. (if)

Primarily your point about losing valuable fans and support. It's imperative that the growth of fan support in Canada be priority Number 1, and I think that will help with more structure and organization.

The biggest thing is financial liabilities. Our site hosting is what, $1300 USD per year, and we made $500.00 USD in advertising (2005, last figures I saw). That's $800.00 USD in costs that we had to raise quickly, and was still only to pay for the previous years hosting. That was nearly 2 years ago, and i don't think we've raised any funds since.

One could argue that the $300 or so cost in incorporating may be better used to put towards our site hosting. But there are a few people that are assuming the liability of hosting this site for us, and that's not right. We need to raise funds, while still maintaining a very broad access to all Canadian fans of the game.

Membership fees is only one way to raise funds. There are other fund raising methods including government funding. We can host raffles for Canadian gear and memorobilia. We can also negotiate commissionable group rates with hotels for travelling voyageurs. We can make a small profit on merchandising.

Incorporating ensures that there is sufficient financial monitoring in place, and will remove the liability from Jarrek (Primarily) who is the registered person with the hosting. The Polish Lynx Fan fiasco with the scarves is a great example of why we should incorporate. $1000.00+ went to this one individual and there was no monitoring of the funds. The individual dissapeared, along with the funds. Right now we are relying on the good nature of individuals that most of us do not know really well. In general, people will feel more comfortable dealing with us if we were a corporation. Financial liability will be significantly lessened when people can write a cheque to the Voyageurs rather than to Thomas J. Plop whom they have never even heard of because most people on here go by nicknames.

Financial accountability is just one of the pros to incorporation. There are other positives as well with incorporating, and there are certainly some negatives.

Once again I agree that it is important to keep our membership strong. I disagree with you that incorporating would negatively impact that, in fact I think it would help strengthen the unity of our group.

[Jarrek]

Incorporation is the only option, unless Gian-Luca or Johnnie Monster wish to have their name registered as the owners of this board and be faced with a possible future lawsuit from some nut-job.

[CoachRich]

That's a pretty steep hosting package. Surely it can't be that much?

[Jarrek]

It's basically a dedicated server due to the high amount of traffic this website receives.

[The Ref]

I find incredible that a lawyer would say that incorporation is a bad thing.

[Johnnie Monster]

quote:Originally posted by The Ref

I find incredible that a lawyer would say that incorporation is a bad thing.

I didn't say incorporation was a bad thing... I said it's an absolutely pointless and unnecessary manoeuvre.

Nor am I a lawyer... however, I am a private investigator, and 95% of my caseload involves gathering evidence related to corporate litigation.

Am I a legal expert? Absolutely not... but I do know a thing or two about civil litigation and the so-called Rules of Court, which I'll comment on below.

gwallace76: I don't dispute that fan growth - and some level of fan organization - is vital to the sport's development in this country.

However, I think those interested in these pursuits should attempt baby steps first before they run.

Case in point [and as much as I hate to admit it] is the Timbers Army in Portland.

This is a group that got off its arse and worked on a grassroots approach to increasing awareness of the Timbers in Portland, and the fun to be had at those games.

They didn't incorporate a company, nor did they elect any kind of board. Instead, they did a lot of simple things that undeniably put more people in the seats, and fostered a growing base of devoted fans.

What they did was meet, and meet regularly. And when they did, it wasn't to discuss and debate finances and soccer politics, it was to plan & create tifo, design merchandise and slap posters all around town... stuff that perhaps the Vees should be doing but aren't.

They too have scarves, T-shirts and all other manner of fan-made merchandise. It has been mostly sold internally, and without problem or scandal to boot. If I'm not mistaken, some of their merch was even picked up and sold at the games by Timbers management.

They also raise funds for various charities, and paid some medical bills of a couple of their members. They even put some money towards the victims of former Timbers player "Fraudi" Afash, who allegedly scammed a Portland couple out of a few thousand bucks.

All this was done without boards of directors, elected officials or any other type of responsibility watchdog.

I'm aware of the concerns some people have concerning what purportedly happened with the scarves on this board. But when it gets to the nitty gritty, an incorporated company can screw you over just as easily as an individual can.

Back on track though: the Timbers Army focused their efforts on doing things which made the games seem attractive, fun and entertaining.

When I read that some people on here wish to incorporate and meet to discuss policy, lobbying and finance, I wonder when the hell these people are going to realize that we all signed onto this board because we're soccer fans, not because we wanted to sit in on PTA meetings.

As for incorporation, there appear to be some serious misconceptions on here about what protection an incorporated company can and can't provide.

Jarrek: If I understand your earlier post, you would prefer the board is owned by a company to shield you from litigation exposure due to the comments made on here.

Fact is, even if the site was owned by a corporation, there is nothing stopping a libelled party from naming anyone connected with the operation, maintenance and hosting of this site as a co-defendant.

Now, whether the case would actually stand up is a whole other discussion...

...but the point I'm making here is that as an administrator of the board, you could theoretically be named as a defendant despite the corporation's ownership of it.

Same goes for anyone using this board. If you participate in, or perpetuate, a libellous discussion by posting on here, you too could **theoretically** be named in a suit.

Obtaining a court order for your registration details, IP, e-mail, etc is as easy as pie, and literally takes 5 minutes in front of a judge.

Sure you might have registered with a fake name, but a second court order can be obtained for the internet providers to rat out your identity upon receipt of your IP.

If someone wants a court order for your identity [for the sole purpose of litigation] all they need is the following:

1. File the lawsuit naming "John Doe" as an unknown defendant.

2. Ask the website mods for John Doe's identity info.

3. When the mods refuse, the Plaintiff submits a short affidavit stating that the mods denied the request, in spite of the fact the info is required for, and relevant to, ongoing court proceedings.

Boom. 95% of the time, the judge writes the order.

So what does all this mean?

Incorporation doesn't protect anyone on this board from libel lawsuits. You're all ultimately responsible for your own words, and if someone gets a bee in their bonnet, anyone connected to the libellous comments, or to the site's operation, are potentially liable in the eyes of the courts.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Johnnie Monster

Incorporation doesn't protect anyone on this board from libel lawsuits. You're all ultimately responsible for your own words, and if someone gets a bee in their bonnet, anyone connected to the libellous comments, or to the site's operation, are potentially liable in the eyes of the courts.

Spot on. Incorporation won't provide any extra protection, rather it provides a legal entity which people can sue in addition to the individuals who make the allegedly slanderous comments.

Increased organization, lobbying & everything people have advocated can happen without incorporation.

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Increased organization, lobbying & everything people have advocated can happen without incorporation.

Okay, any constructive alternatives out there? Can anyone suggest

possible alternative structures?

With all due respect, it's easy to say "no" but offer nothing to

ease the current problems that we face. You must think: THIS IS

A NATIONAL VOLUNTEER ORGANIZATION. It's easier to organize a

city/regional fan base (eg. Whitecaps support, U-Sector, etc.),

but nationally?

Let's point out some of the issues:

1) the funding for this site

2) the treatment of Voyageurs by the CSA

3) the campaigns of support, and marketing (scarves, signs, etc.)

4) a structured support for MNT players

5) better relationships with media, etc.

6) ability for fan base to grow

The liability issue, as important as it is, is only a single issue.

What do you want the V's to be? Are we bitching that we do not

want to pay anything at all, and let this loose organization run

like ... the CSA: volunteer-based, amateurish, and poorly run?

Respectfully, I believe that there are solutions out there without

any hidden agendas, and only for the advancement of our support

of the MNT and our passion for football.

[pulsar]

This is just off-the-cuff here and maybe it has been brought up, but how about a" Voyageurs' Cup" to 1) Get exposure 2) Gain Membership 3) Build a respectable relationship with the media

i guess just include all what redhat was saying.

If we start with regional tournaments and build towards a national title i think this will help us tremendously. REMEMBER, THIS JUST POPPED INTO MY MIND....not thought out but i think it would build us into a respectable organization if run correctly and more importantly....UNITED.

It may take longer to build but i think the service we would bring to our soccer communities would be valuable. Down the road we could initiate scouting, desiging videos for players, work closer with the csa ( quit laughing people....we are stuck with them) get our local boys noticed. This may require diving into some of the politcs of local soccer associations but it can be done. There are enough V's in every major urban centre in Canada to work together and be a creative force. I think it may be worth a shot.

Or if there are any real estate moguls among us...lets open up the Voyageur National Training Centre for Soccer Excellence.

[Kye]

I wouldnt be against incorporating, but like others have said we needa clear mandate and hierarachy before it would be possible.

[JamesW]

pulsar,

http://www.voyageurscup.ca/

[pulsar]

quote:Originally posted by Jamit

pulsar,

http://www.voyageurscup.ca/

oh for the love of god!!!!!! I just wish i had an original idea once in awhile.....lol

[Grizzly]

I agree with GianLuca and Johnie Monster's posts on the topics. Up to now I have not heard anyone post any real (as opposed to imagined) benefits to incorporating. Plus, the incorporation process and then subsequent management of the incorporated Voyageurs will be very complicated, time consuming and possibly expensive. I think this time and effort could be used in a much more productive fashion than in the bureaucracy of running the Voyageurs corporation. I would still post here in an incorporated forum but I don't have any interest in spending the time and effort in being a member of the board or dealing with the legalities of incorporating. I suspect even many of the members who support incorporating would feel similar once they realize how much time and effort this requires.

I think many of the goals people have by incorporating could be accomplished just by being better organized and a bit more structured but in a still informal manner. I think we should elect people to be responsible for certain functions within the organization. There should be people in each of the cities we play in responsible for organizing supporter sections and possibly someone who is a national liason to the CSA for this. We could also have someone officially in charge of sending out media releases which is basically the role Jeffery S. has had informally for the last couple of months. A couple of long term, well known members could be in charge of the finances of the organization. If we have some sort of formal organization, we would also be in a much better position to incorporate in the future if there does prove to be an advantage to doing so. I would be interested in fulfilling such a role with the Voyageurs as long as I see the purpose of what I am doing and am spending time doing it and not fulfilling the bureaucratic tasks that incorporating would bring.

As far as liability I think incorporating will not protect anyone. What will greatly reduce the possibility of anyone getting sued is moderating the forum more strictly. We are a public forum and can't be held responsible for what someone posts without our knowledge or consent. What we can be held responsible for is if we allow libelous statements to remain on the board after we have read their content. If getting sued is such a worry we would be far better off spending time and effort on moderating the board more closely than on incorporating.

[The Ref]

There will always be detractors to advancement an innovation. Remember the big controversy when this current forum format was proposed over the old one? And here we are years later a happy bunch. Just go ahead with incorporation.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

As far as liability I think incorporating will not protect anyone. What will greatly reduce the possibility of anyone getting sued is moderating the forum more strictly. We are a public forum and can't be held responsible for what someone posts without our knowledge or consent. What we can be held responsible for is if we allow libelous statements to remain on the board after we have read their content. If getting sued is such a worry we would be far better off spending time and effort on moderating the board more closely than on incorporating.

Yes, those are my thoughts as well on the liability point of view. And actually I agree with everything else you wrote too. I think that if we are interested in a more organized structure we should make that effort first, rather than going the legal route, incurring costs and then seeing if the increased organization actually works out to our benefit.

[River City]

Ok, so what kind of setup do we use? Not a lot of posts on the structure thread.