How to Make the Gold Cup Better.

[Watchmen]

48 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

Any combined tournament with South America (presumably with a goal to rival the Euros) needs to have a qualifying tourney IMO. I've seen lots of fans & pundits say do a combined tourney and just take the 10 teams from Comnebol with 6 teams from Concacaf who have to qualify and to me that's a load of donkey dung. No reason to gift wrap spots to the likes of Bolivia & Venezuela ahead of the better Concacaf teams

I've thought about this, and a hybrid of something like "everyone from the last world cup automatically qualifies and everyone else goes through qualifying" would work. Because Brazil and Argentina would never agree to a revised  tournament where they had to qualify, there's too many $$$ in friendlies to be made. So you'd end up with all the big countries still qualifying (which is what you want) but opening it up a bit more. 

But then then, I'd probably rather the 10 and 6 tournament than the continuation of the Gold Cup.

[Watchmen]

5 hours ago, youllneverwalkalone said:

Could it not be in the US every time?

Canada had the chance to host some games in Toronto. Couldn't sell them out for the host country. That was the opportunity to push for the tournament not being entirely in the US and it failed.

[RS]

27 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Canada had the chance to host some games in Toronto. Couldn't sell them out for the host country. That was the opportunity to push for the tournament not being entirely in the US and it failed.

Two matches underselling expectations, on a Tuesday, smack dab in the middle of the Pan Am Games (both date-wise and location-wise), was enough to convince CONCACAF to never host another Gold Cup fixture outside the U.S. again.

[Club Linesman]

It also pissed rain which led my eldest to look at me and go “seriously,  we are staying here in the rain to watch soccer?”

We did, both games.😜

Of course it was his last game with me...

[RS]

That was before the canopy was put on, too.

You're a trooper, @Club Linesman.

[Watchmen]

12 minutes ago, RS said:

Two matches underselling expectations, on a Tuesday, smack dab in the middle of the Pan Am Games (both date-wise and location-wise), was enough to convince CONCACAF to never host another Gold Cup fixture outside the U.S. again.

Do you think every date for the event is going to be perfect? Do you think "sorry, the game was on a Tuesday" would be an acceptable reason the US wouldn't sell vastly more tickets for a game involving the US?  It was a game involving Canada in the tournament, and it underperformed. So yes, it's 100% a reason that CONCACAF won't be moving the full tournament to Canada anytime soon, and might not even for a Canada game.

[RS]

Just now, Watchmen said:

Do you think every date for the event is going to be perfect? Do you think "sorry, the game was on a Tuesday" would be an acceptable reason the US wouldn't sell vastly more tickets for a game involving the US?  It was a game involving Canada in the tournament, and it underperformed. So yes, it's 100% a reason that CONCACAF won't be moving the full tournament to Canada anytime soon, and might not even for a Canada game.

Do you think it's reasonable to never even consider attempting to host a single match outside of US soil because of one (slightly) underperforming date six years ago?

[Free kick]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I've thought about this, and a hybrid of something like "everyone from the last world cup automatically qualifies and everyone else goes through qualifying" would work. Because Brazil and Argentina would never agree to a revised  tournament where they had to qualify, there's too many $$$ in friendlies to be made. So you'd end up with all the big countries still qualifying (which is what you want) but opening it up a bit more. 

But then then, I'd probably rather the 10 and 6 tournament than the continuation of the Gold Cup.

Good point.  What no one wants is to have to go through a qualifying tournament.  I but i agree that an “Americas” tournament rather than the Gold cup and Copa America is the way to go.  Thats the only way that you could entice a broadcaster to fork out some serious dollar.   Just look at Canada right now, we are now at the point where the only interested medium is a subscription streaming service with the very tiny niche audience.  It cant get worst than that. It used to be through Rogers and Bell channels.  But thats where we are at with the Gold Cup.  With an americas cup, i am sure you could entice them back.  And you would entice  US media to fork out more.

It would be a more competive tournament and hence the prestige level would increase.  With a sixteen team tournament,  that you held it every four years but not during WCQ.  You would see the star players committing and it would make sence to invite the Alphonso Davies calibre players. 

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Free kick

[Watchmen]

35 minutes ago, Free kick said:

Good point.  What no one wants is to have to go through a qualifying tournament.  I but i agree that an “Americas” tournament rather than the Gold cup and Copa America is the way to go.  Thats the only way that you could entice a broadcaster to fork out some serious dollar.   Just look at Canada right now, we are now at the point where the only interested medium is a subscription streaming service with the very tiny niche audience.  It cant get worst than that. It used to be through Rogers and Bell channels.  But thats where we are at with the Gold Cup.  With an americas cup, i am sure you could entice them back.  And you would entice  US media to fork out more.

It would be a more competive tournament and hence the prestige level would increase.  With a sixteen team tournament,  that you held it every four years but not during WCQ.  You would see the star players committing and it would make sence to invite the Alphonso Davies calibre players. 

 

Yeah, this has basically always been my thought. And the thing is, you don't even need to entice Bell or Rogers - TSN just showed the whole tournament. But an Americas Cup with the star power/wealth of Brazil, Argentina, Mexico and the US plus a rotating group of other South American teams would be an even bigger event. And from a more selfish Canadian point of view- look how excited smaller nations in Europe are just to qualify for the Euro. Qualifying for an America's Cup wouldn't be as big for Canada as the World Cup but it would probably be big enough to draw a lot more attention. The Gold Cup just doesn't do that.

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, RS said:

Do you think it's reasonable to never even consider attempting to host a single match outside of US soil because of one (slightly) underperforming date six years ago?

Gold Cup 2019 was co-hosted with Costa Rica and Jamaica. So they have hosted matches outside the US. But generally the discussion on this topic is another country hosting the entire tournament, which is more what I was countering. And on that basis, I don't see that happening ever.

[Club Linesman]

2 hours ago, RS said:

That was before the canopy was put on, too.

You're a trooper, @Club Linesman.

Those games were a pleasure compared to all of the home games in the TFC Concacaf championship run.  Badge of honour that I attended all games without a coat and with my Tfc shirt proudly displayed.  But that was the coldest I have ever been at a sporting event which includes the 2 Maple Leaf/Red Wings Winter Classics.

That does lead to another point. Why is there a 40 foot gap between the top of the stands and the canopy?!  That let the rain and sleet come in to the stands in sheets for those Tfc games?!

[SoccMan]

12 minutes ago, Club Linesman said:

Those games were a pleasure compared to all of the home games in the TFC Concacaf championship run.  Badge of honour that I attended all games without a coat and with my Tfc shirt proudly displayed.  But that was the coldest I have ever been at a sporting event which includes the 2 Maple Leaf/Red Wings Winter Classics.

That does lead to another point. Why is there a 40 foot gap between the top of the stands and the canopy?!  That let the rain and sleet come in to the stands in sheets for those Tfc games?!

A 40 foot gap because whoever built those canopies has no clue , there should also be a cover on the side of the stands too. 

[RS]

3 minutes ago, SoccMan said:

A 40 foot gap because whoever built those canopies has no clue , there should also be a cover on the side of the stands too. 

It’s a stadium that’s been built in pieces and suffers from the multipurpose nature of the renovations.

Of course the engineers that designed the canopies have a clue. They can’t cover the sides due to CFL sight lines (the ends of the east/west stands line up perfectly with the soccer goal lines, but the end zones extend well beyond them in both directions).

 

[CanadianSoccerFan]

On the topic of an all-Americas tournament, I followed the developments as closely as I could since the last Centenario.  I'm not digging up all of the links so you'll have to take my word for it.

 

Back when Vic was first elected, he did a podcast interview with Alexi Lalas where he laid out his vision for CONCACAF.  In it, he said he would expand the Gold Cup to 16 teams and move it to a 4 year cycle to make way for a joint tournament with CONMEBOL.  The original Nations League schedule even left June 2020 open for a joint tournament.  

So, what happened?  From what I've been able to gather from listening to people like TIm Vickery, CONMEBOL and CONCACAF had a "falling out".  In the simplest terms, they both agree there should be a joint tournament but have extremely different opinions on division of revenue and control.  This is also the reason Mexico and the US are no longer playing in Copa America as guests.

[RS]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

Gold Cup 2019 was co-hosted with Costa Rica and Jamaica. So they have hosted matches outside the US.

Yes, I had forgotten about that. Those games didn't sell out, either.

[Free kick]

https://www.si.com/soccer/2021/07/15/gold-cup-issues-usa-mexico-concacaf-copa-america
 

i came accross this article that touches on many of the things that had been raised here.   I skimmed through it quickly but he raises many of the similar points i and others here have raised.   
 

He asks: whats in it for Conmebol?  He mentions the large sponsoship money from TV in North america. And because its the only way to ever rival the Euros. And that the added concacaf teams will make the tournament group stage more competitive. 
 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Free kick

[Gian-Luca]

Said this before the tourney but more poignant with the news that we're down two of our three strikers, go to 26 man rosters just like the Euros did.

[TOcanadafan]

2 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

So, what happened?  From what I've been able to gather from listening to people like TIm Vickery, CONMEBOL and CONCACAF had a "falling out".  In the simplest terms, they both agree there should be a joint tournament but have extremely different opinions on division of revenue and control.  This is also the reason Mexico and the US are no longer playing in Copa America as guests.

I would think the largest percentage of revenue would come from TV deals.  I know there’s a whole lot of corruption involved with these deals.  Why not have each confederation “manage” this part independently?  

[CanadianSoccerFan]

28 minutes ago, TOcanadafan said:

I would think the largest percentage of revenue would come from TV deals.  I know there’s a whole lot of corruption involved with these deals.  Why not have each confederation “manage” this part independently?  

That's the part that doesn't get reported on and never will.  This is pure speculation but we may not have this problem if FIFAgate never happened.  The bribery from marketing companies helped bridge these disagreements to make the 2016 Centenario possible.  However, the FBI crackdown with liberal definitions of "US jurisdiction" likely made any future agreement a challenge.  If you were a CONMEBOL executive that wanted to make some money on the side from the marketing companies, any cooperation with CONCACAF would open yourself up to US jurisdiction and a possible knock on the door from the FBI.  Why bother with the hassle?   

[RJB]

Merging with Copa America doesn't fix the Gold Cup, it eliminates it. I think that's a separate conversation. 

As for the Gold Cup, think they're on the right track. The move to 16 teams is huge, as is having a draw finally, and having the last group games go at the same time. This improves credibility.

I'd like to see them ditch the guest teams as there is no point to having them. There are plenty of teams in our region, and we don't need to round out the numbers like South America. 

But something that would give it more interest would be to have it on a four year cycle. Then, it matters if you miss it and gives you more bragging rights, plus it feels less bush-league.  I know it's a money thing, but it would align better with other tournaments.  Maybe they need a tournament like Asia where the minnows have their own version, and it acts as a qualifier for the big show. 

And last: the name. Gold Cup is an amateur name, and doesn't convey that this is a continental championship. Together with a fairly generic trophy, and it doesn't seem like something that players would be aching to win. 

 

[MauditYvon]

Like others I’d say every 4 years, different host countries, no invitation and good qualifying formula.

Thing with hosts is that you have only four countries : Mexico, USA, Canada and Panama/Costa Rica. But still, would be nice to discover them and I’m sure local football fans would go to games.

[MauditYvon]

But I’m being optimistic with Surinam, Cuba and Curacao who now at least bring pro players. Also have my eyes on Guadeloupe and Martinique. Those guys probably don’t like big trips every 2 years tho.

[CanadianSoccerFan]

1 hour ago, RJB said:

 

I'd like to see them ditch the guest teams as there is no point to having them. There are plenty of teams in our region, and we don't need to round out the numbers like South America. 

But something that would give it more interest would be to have it on a four year cycle. Then, it matters if you miss it and gives you more bragging rights, plus it feels less bush-league.  I know it's a money thing, but it would align better with other tournaments.  Maybe they need a tournament like Asia where the minnows have their own version, and it acts as a qualifier for the big show. 

And last: the name. Gold Cup is an amateur name, and doesn't convey that this is a continental championship. Together with a fairly generic trophy, and it doesn't seem like something that players would be aching to win. 

 

Qatar is indeed here to "round out the numbers".  Those numbers are the CONCACAF bank account.

https://www.concacaf.com/news/concacaf-and-qatar-airways-agree-to-multi-year-confederation-wide-partnership/

[Kent]

On 7/19/2021 at 4:36 PM, Watchmen said:

Do you think every date for the event is going to be perfect? Do you think "sorry, the game was on a Tuesday" would be an acceptable reason the US wouldn't sell vastly more tickets for a game involving the US?  It was a game involving Canada in the tournament, and it underperformed. So yes, it's 100% a reason that CONCACAF won't be moving the full tournament to Canada anytime soon, and might not even for a Canada game.

Obviously a Gold Cup hosted by Canada would sell fewer tickets than one hosted in the USA, but for what it's worth, there was a game involving the USA in that same Gold Cup that sold fewer tickets than the Canada at BMO game.

Canada vs Costa Rica in Toronto - 16,674
USA vs Panama in Philadelphia - 12,598

I should also mention that the Toronto game was actually a double header, while the Philadelphia game was not (it was the 3rd place match).

If we want a more like for like, the day before the Toronto games the USA played in Kansas City (also against Panama) in front of 18,467. Not vastly more than the Toronto game, but it was a sell out in that venue.

But I will also add that the USA has been given plenty of time to build up crowds. We could look to past tournaments and I'm sure find lots of small crowds for USA games. In 2003 for example they played a game in front of just over 8k fans in New England's NFL stadium. They also played a quarter final that year in front of just 15k fans in the same stadium. I think other countries should get more than one chance to prove themselves.

[Kent]

1 minute ago, Kent said:

Obviously a Gold Cup hosted by Canada would sell fewer tickets than one hosted in the USA, but for what it's worth, there was a game involving the USA in that same Gold Cup that sold fewer tickets than the Canada at BMO game.

Canada vs Costa Rica in Toronto - 16,674
USA vs Panama in Philadelphia - 12,598

I should also mention that the Toronto game was actually a double header, while the Philadelphia game was not (it was the 3rd place match).

If we want a more like for like, the day before the Toronto games the USA played in Kansas City (also against Panama) in front of 18,467. Not vastly more than the Toronto game, but it was a sell out in that venue.

But I will also add that the USA has been given plenty of time to build up crowds. We could look to past tournaments and I'm sure find lots of small crowds for USA games. In 2003 for example they played a game in front of just over 8k fans in New England's NFL stadium. They also played a quarter final that year in front of just 15k fans in the same stadium. I think other countries should get more than one chance to prove themselves.

I should have looked back one more year. USA in a SEMI FINAL (against Canada actually) in 2002 drew only 7k to the huge Rose Bowl. Even the final that the USA won that year drew only 14k.