2020 Voyageurs Cup Format

[Trois Reds]

According to both mls.com and canpl.ca, after the MLS  teams play each other in their mini-tournament, the team with the best record against the other two will play the North Star Shield winner in a one game playoff for the Voyageur's Cup and the 2021 CONCACAF Champion's League. 

Since the North Star Shield winner also goes to CONCACAF league, I'd like to know who that slot goes to if the CPL team wins.

Edit: @Narduch beat me to it

Edited August 13, 2020 by Trois Reds
Ninja'd!

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, Trois Reds said:

Since the North Star Shield winner also goes to CONCACAF league, I'd like to know who that slot goes to if the CPL team wins.

Most likely the Island games runner-up as only through CPL a club can go to that competition 

[Trois Reds]

1 minute ago, Ansem said:

Most likely the Island games runner-up as only through CPL a club can go to that competition 

That would be... intriguing. In a good way.

[Ansem]

 

[spinrack]

This new format is a bit of a kick in the nuts to the League 1 Ontario and Quebec Premiere League champions.

[narduch]

11 minutes ago, spinrack said:

This new format is a bit of a kick in the nuts to the League 1 Ontario and Quebec Premiere League champions.

I believe they were notified months ago about this. They will be in the 2021 event

[JamboAl]

4 hours ago, spinrack said:

This new format is a bit of a kick in the nuts to the League 1 Ontario and Quebec Premiere League champions.

Maybe some of the players may not have been interested in travelling to an away match within a “bubble”, have potentially 14 day quarantines and be financially impacted because of missed work.  

[narduch]

Are League 1 Ontario and PLSQ currently even playing?

[Kent]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

Are League 1 Ontario and PLSQ currently even playing?

League1 is not. PLSQ apparently are a couple games into their season.

[spinrack]

3 hours ago, narduch said:

Are League 1 Ontario and PLSQ currently even playing?

PLSQ started two weeks ago.
L1O is not playing yet, so far as I can tell.

[Watchmen]

Under the circumstances I'm not saying there's a better way, but it's disappointing the first CPL spot in the final is given and not earned.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Watchmen

[SthMelbRed]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Under the circumstances I'm not saying there's a better way, but it's disappointing the first CPL spot in the final is given and not earned.

Are they not giving it to the team that wins the Island tournament?

[Watchmen]

40 minutes ago, SthMelbRed said:

Are they not giving it to the team that wins the Island tournament?

Yes.  But I mean, they don't have to beat an MLS team to get there.  There's not even the possibility of them having to face an MLS team to get there.  The CPL was just awarded a spot in the final.  Hence, the spot is not earned by the CPL.

[SthMelbRed]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

Yes.  But I mean, they don't have to beat an MLS team to get there.  There's not even the possibility of them having to face an MLS team to get there.  The CPL was just awarded a spot in the final.  Hence, the spot is not earned by the CPL.

If CPL isn't earning a spot in the final, can you not say the same thing about the MLS sides? What's to say that the 2 best teams in Canada aren't both in CPL? Maybe the second place team in the PEI tourney should complain that the MLS finalist didn't really earn that spot by beating them. 

The point is that no knockout tournament can guarantee the 2 best teams in the final. If you want that, you have to play a full round robin, home-and-away fixture and call it a league.

[Watchmen]

8 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

If CPL isn't earning a spot in the final, can you not say the same thing about the MLS sides? What's to say that the 2 best teams in Canada aren't both in CPL? Maybe the second place team in the PEI tourney should complain that the MLS finalist didn't really earn that spot by beating them. 

The point is that no knockout tournament can guarantee the 2 best teams in the final. If you want that, you have to play a full round robin, home-and-away fixture and call it a league.

Because MLS sides have made the final every single year it's been in a knockout stage format.

If the Voyagers Cup drew for each round, and a CPL side avoided drawing an MLS side until the final, then so be it.  That's how draws work.  This isn't that.  This is saying "We are deliberately putting a CPL side straight in to the final."  And again, given the circumstances that's understandable.  But let's not say it's the same thing as if they'd followed through with the original format for this year and a CPL knocked out the Whitecaps/TFC/Impact to make it to the final.

[Kent]

Yeah, I think the important word in Watchman’s original post is that it’s the first final for a CPL team. It is just less satisfying than having a CPL team go through a knockout tournament that included the MLS teams and making it to the final.

[nfitz]

20 hours ago, Watchmen said:

Under the circumstances I'm not saying there's a better way, but it's disappointing the first CPL spot in the final is given and not earned.

Good point. Perhaps they can just make the final between the first-place and second-place MLS teams in the upcoming 9-game MLS mini-tourney.

(I'll get my coat ...)

(frankly, there's little about 2020 that's not disappointing)

Edited August 15, 2020 by nfitz

[Watchmen]

8 hours ago, Kent said:

Yeah, I think the important word in Watchman’s original post is that it’s the first final for a CPL team. It is just less satisfying than having a CPL team go through a knockout tournament that included the MLS teams and making it to the final.

This.  I'm not saying the format for this year is being done wrong.  It is what it is, and there's limited options.  I'm sure they'll still be heavily promoting "the first CPL team to make the final".  It's just not an earned spot, but rather a given one.

[Watchmen]

2 hours ago, nfitz said:

Good point. Perhaps they can just make the final between the first-place and second-place MLS teams in the upcoming 9-game MLS mini-tourney.

(I'll get my coat ...)

(frankly, there's little about 2020 that's not disappointing)

The rumoured original plan if they couldn't get the tournament going was just to award the Champions League spot to the highest ranked MLS team, which means your post is fairly close to the truth.  That would have also been disappointing and unsatisfying.

[-Hammer-]

On 8/13/2020 at 5:17 PM, Ansem said:

Most likely the Island games runner-up as only through CPL a club can go to that competition 

If this is in fact the case, and the runner up of the V.Cup doesn't get the CONCAAF league spot, I would frankly love it. I want to see Canada Soccer back scratching their league more and make the USSF scratch the Canadian sides more if they want them to remain there. 

It does make some sense though, given this year the Canadian MLS sides I'm to understand had a chance to poach some of the US's spots in the Champion's league this year, so giving them a second free ride given they already had a chance in their league.

That said, I think it's a tall task for any CanPL team to conquer whoever the top team coming out of the MLS series will be.

It will also be a damn shame that if it ends up being Forge/York and TFC, Pacific and Vancouver or Ottawa and Montreal that it won't be able to be seen live for the first time.

Edited August 16, 2020 by -Hammer-

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, -Hammer- said:

If this is in fact the case, and the runner up of the V.Cup doesn't get the CONCAAF league spot, I would frankly love it. I want to see Canada Soccer back scratching their league more and make the USSF scratch the Canadian sides more if they want them to remain there. 

It does make some sense though, given this year the Canadian MLS sides I'm to understand had a chance to poach some of the US's spots in the Champion's league this year, so giving them a second free ride given they already had a chance in their league.

That said, I think it's a tall task for any CanPL team to conquer whoever the top team coming out of the MLS series will be.

It will also be a damn shame that if it ends up being Forge/York and TFC, Pacific and Vancouver or Ottawa and Montreal that it won't be able to be seen live for the first time.

I think Clanachan letvit slide on Onesocer when he said that it could be potentially 2 teams going to CONCACAF. Looks like he's expecting the runner up to go to CONCACAF League of the champion beats the MLS team.

Another reason why it's fair 

MLS had 2 shots (MLS tournament & Canadian Championship)

CPL has 2 shots too (Island Games & Canadian Championship)

[Kent]

CPL teams could have a shot, especially if it ends up being a single game. The MLS team could underestimate the CPL team, or might not be all in on trying to win like we have seen from time to time. Making the final could just mean they are taking the MLS regular season seriously, not necessarily the Canadian Championship.

[nfitz]

5 hours ago, Ansem said:

I think Clanachan letvit slide on Onesocer when he said that it could be potentially 2 teams going to CONCACAF. Looks like he's xpecting the runner up to go to CONCACAF League of the champion beats the MLS team.

There's no reason that if the CPL champion beats the MLS champion, that hey couldn't play in both the 2021 Champions League and 2021 Concacaf League. The Champions League is long-over by the time the 2021 Concacaf League starts.

The issue would be that if Hamilton Forge win the 2020 Voyageurs Cup, and also qualify for the 2021 Champions League by finishing in the top 4 of the 2020 Concacaf League. Presumably then the CAN1 spot in Champions League would go to the runner-up in the Voyageurs Cup.

And that isn't anything special about this year ... that's true anytime a CPL wins the Voyageurs Cup.

A bigger question will be if there really is a Concacf or Champions League in 2020 and 2021

[Watchmen]

4 hours ago, Kent said:

CPL teams could have a shot, especially if it ends up being a single game. The MLS team could underestimate the CPL team, or might not be all in on trying to win like we have seen from time to time. Making the final could just mean they are taking the MLS regular season seriously, not necessarily the Canadian Championship.

It could happen, but I think it's less likely to happen in a one-off final.  Silverware is silverware, and I think all the MLS teams still see value in being in the Champions League.  That's not to say they'll win, just that I think they'll come out guns blazing and with the strongest lineup possible.

[Kent]

19 hours ago, Watchmen said:

It could happen, but I think it's less likely to happen in a one-off final.  Silverware is silverware, and I think all the MLS teams still see value in being in the Champions League.  That's not to say they'll win, just that I think they'll come out guns blazing and with the strongest lineup possible.

There is often a team or two that doesn’t prioritize it in any given year. They typically get weeded out by another MLS team, but this year a team like that could end up in the final. TFC for example has seemed a lot less interested in the Canadian Championship and CCL since they missed the playoffs in 2018. For example, they started Gallardo and Mullins in leg 1 of the final last year, and put Pozuelo and Altidore on the subs bench.

Upsets are easier in one off games than over two legs. Even if the MLS team takes it seriously and is the better team on the day, the CPL team could still get a fluke goal, or a PK off a dubious call, or a red card to the MLS team, and there is no second game to make amends.

I will say though, one thing that makes it more likely the MLS team will take it seriously is that they likely won’t have a regular season game shortly after the final that they will want to rest starters for, due to border restrictions.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Kent
Spelling, auto correct, grammar.