2020 Voyageurs Cup Format

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Rocket Robin said:

Do you think there's time for Ottawa to be pushed into the Voyageurs Cup for 2020 seeing as the draw has already been conducted?

I think arrangements should be made to get them in. 

Looking at the current bracket, they could play Blainville in a Preliminary round. With the winner taking on Halifax 

[Blackdude]

50 minutes ago, narduch said:

I think arrangements should be made to get them in. 

Looking at the current bracket, they could play Blainville in a Preliminary round. With the winner taking on Halifax 

Nah, if they get in, they'll play either Cavalry or Vancouver. 

[narduch]

9 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

Nah, if they get in, they'll play either Cavalry or Vancouver. 

I was just thinking to keep it regional

[Blackdude]

5 minutes ago, narduch said:

I was just thinking to keep it regional

I know, but it makes no sense to force Blainville an extra round over the other teams. If one team is forced to play more, it has to be a Western team. They cna reevaluate for next year.

[IAmPappy]

Wouldn’t Ottawa actually need to be sanctioned first as a club by CSA at the May meeting? I’m thinking they’re probably on the sideline for this year. 

[BuzzAndSting]

Although it would be nice if they were, I hope that Ottawa isn't in this season. The format is set, it would look amateurish to change it now. Have them enter next year with all the other CPL teams.

[ted]

18 hours ago, Rocket Robin said:

Do you think there's time for Ottawa to be pushed into the Voyageurs Cup for 2020 seeing as the draw has already been conducted?

Possibly, but I don't think they should.

1. The draw has been conducted and there has to be a cut-off. 
2. Why add extra work for all the teams that have already had to book their venues?
3. Why add to the headaches for a club that will be going crazy just to start league play?

 

[Rintaran]

19 hours ago, Rocket Robin said:

Do you think there's time for Ottawa to be pushed into the Voyageurs Cup for 2020 seeing as the draw has already been conducted?

I don't think they will. @ted has put forth some pretty good reasoning on this one, but I can add 2 more reasons:

1) The current format is "neat". It looks tidy, has a decent rationale, and comes to the conclusion the CSA wants.

2) The CSA is not exactly known for going the extra mile. It's made, they aren't going to do the work all over again.

[nfitz]

Let's see if and for when an Ottawa team is announced. We've heard so many reports of impending expansion announcements - none of which have panned out yet.

Though if they do end up playing in the spring 2020 CPL, and there is a desire to add them to the Voyageurs Cup ... I'd have thought the easiest (and most regional) way to do it, would be to rescind Calgary's bye to the quarter-finals, have Cavalry play Winnipeg in the June Qualifying round, and Ottawa play Hamilton - with the winners playing in the quarter finals.

I'm not aware of any matches being scheduled yet - just the bracket and trimeframes.

[Blackdude]

44 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Let's see if and for when an Ottawa team is announced. We've heard so many reports of impending expansion announcements - none of which have panned out yet.

Nothing like Ottawa. All the other were maybe in 1-2 years. It's reported by too many people to not be the real deal.

[nfitz]

1 hour ago, Blackdude said:

Nothing like Ottawa. All the other were maybe in 1-2 years. It's reported by too many people to not be the real deal.

Several of them WERE Ottawa! I doubt very much we'll hear by tomorrow as many were saying earlier this week.

Sure, something's in the work - I have no doubt of that - but there's no guarantee they'll be playing in April 2020!

[Blackdude]

4 minutes ago, nfitz said:

Several of them WERE Ottawa! I doubt very much we'll hear by tomorrow as many were saying earlier this week.

Sure, something's in the work - I have no doubt of that - but there's no guarantee they'll be playing in April 2020!

Nothing was coming from Ottawa. It was mainly wishful thinking by people outside of Ottawa.

[MtlMario]

I think if Ottawa joins it's too late for them to play for Voyageurs Cup this year. With the match ups already announced it wouldn't look too professional at this point to start changing things.

[Cblake]

Now that Ottawa is in, will be interesting to see how their possible involvement in the 2020 is handled. Would Calgary be be moved to the opening round to face Ottawa or would Ottawa be faced with playing Blainville in say in a play in round? Maybe they are told to wait until 2021.

https://canpl.ca/article/canadian-premier-league-awards-1st-expansion-team-to-ottawa?fbclid=IwAR3EUTPjuV77koCSLwzAr_bWXxGzksysMYXATxmLHRnEpHdICy5_3LIWz90

 

 

[Big_M]

Still to be determined is whether or not Ottawa will participate in the 2020 Canadian Championship, and if so, how the tournament will be restructured to accommodate the new CPL side.

https://canpl.ca/article/club-atletico-de-madrid-welcomed-as-owners-of-cpl-team-in-ottawa

[Stouffvillain]

I'm excited for Ottawa but I don't think they should be in the tournament this year, there has to be some kind of cut off at some point.  You have a format that works, stick to it. 

There is discussion in the Ottawa CPL thread that the format is too favoured to MLS sides, figured I'd move the discussion here. 

I don't have a problem with having the MLS sides enter the competition later.  You see it all over the world in cup competitions that the top clubs get to enter the competition later.  Look at the FA Cup, Coppa Italia, DFB Pokal, Copa del Rey, etc. the EPL, Serie A, Bundesliga, La Liga sides all enter the competitions at later rounds.  I get that the CPL is D1 but after one year (even with the Cavalry upset over the Whitecaps) we can't objectively say that the CPL clubs are on par with the MLS clubs.  As the CPL grows and the Canadian soccer pyramid fills out with its own D2 and more D3 leagues you will have an expanded tournament and the MLS clubs entry will get pushed back to earlier rounds.

[narduch]

The tournament doesn't start until June 16. There is plenty of time to get Ottawa in. 

I still like my idea the best. Have Ottawa take on Blainville in May. The winner faces HFX. 

It's the simplest solution and keeps with the Regional flavour of this year's set up. 

[Kent]

7 hours ago, Stouffvillain said:

I'm excited for Ottawa but I don't think they should be in the tournament this year, there has to be some kind of cut off at some point.  You have a format that works, stick to it. 

There is discussion in the Ottawa CPL thread that the format is too favoured to MLS sides, figured I'd move the discussion here. 

I don't have a problem with having the MLS sides enter the competition later.  You see it all over the world in cup competitions that the top clubs get to enter the competition later.  Look at the FA Cup, Coppa Italia, DFB Pokal, Copa del Rey, etc. the EPL, Serie A, Bundesliga, La Liga sides all enter the competitions at later rounds.  I get that the CPL is D1 but after one year (even with the Cavalry upset over the Whitecaps) we can't objectively say that the CPL clubs are on par with the MLS clubs.  As the CPL grows and the Canadian soccer pyramid fills out with its own D2 and more D3 leagues you will have an expanded tournament and the MLS clubs entry will get pushed back to earlier rounds.

When exactly does CPL deserve to be treated equally to MLS? An “eye test” is way too subjective. It shouldn’t be based on money figures or attendance. If the answer is “results” then what exactly do the results need to be? Because CPL has already eliminated an MLS team, and I am pretty sure there weren’t even any 2 goal wins by MLS teams over CPL teams yet. That doesn’t exactly scream lower league.

To give MLS teams an advantage just because, without setting any parameters for CPL deserving equality in the future is just wrong in my opinion.

The examples you mentioned are poor because those bye’s in other countries were earned by climbing the league ladder to the top division. There is no such thing from CPL to MLS. So it is fair in their systems, but not in ours.

[Ansem]

@CanadaFan123

But you do understand that the rewards for winning up to 2-3 games vs. Winning the CPL season + Championship is kind of disproportionate.

That's why I said I was hoping for an extra CCL.

[Cblake]

2 hours ago, Kent said:

When exactly does CPL deserve to be treated equally to MLS? An “eye test” is way too subjective. It shouldn’t be based on money figures or attendance. If the answer is “results” then what exactly do the results need to be? Because CPL has already eliminated an MLS team, and I am pretty sure there weren’t even any 2 goal wins by MLS teams over CPL teams yet. That doesn’t exactly scream lower league.

To give MLS teams an advantage just because, without setting any parameters for CPL deserving equality in the future is just wrong in my opinion.

The examples you mentioned are poor because those bye’s in other countries were earned by climbing the league ladder to the top division. There is no such thing from CPL to MLS. So it is fair in their systems, but not in ours.

Is the CPL any better a league than when Ottawa and Edmonton was in NASL. You can not you one off cup matches in comparing the quality of one league or the other. Even USASA teams like Dallas Roma and Cal FC have victories over MLS sides. It means very little in the long run, as it should be.

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Cblake said:

Is the CPL any better a league than when Ottawa and Edmonton was in NASL. You can not you one off cup matches in comparing the quality of one league or the other. Even USASA teams like Dallas Roma and Cal FC have victories over MLS sides. It means very little in the long run, as it should be.

You answered zero of my questions. I am the guy that was advocating for the number of teams in the Canadian Championship to be filled out to a good tournament number (like 16 or even 32) with D3 teams, and then doing a completely random draw.

I am also the guy who kept track of results in the CCL and CL and determined their CONCACAF rank before CONCACAF did, and advocated for those numbers being used to determine how many spots each country gets, and in which competition. Your NASL/USL question does nothing against my argument. I didn’t even like it when it was a 5 team tournament and the two D2 teams had to play each other before making it to the Voyageurs Cup proper. I thought it robbed a fan base of seeing their team against an MLS team.

But I guess I will take a stab at answering your question. Here are the results compiled since 2011 (when Edmonton started).

CPL Single game

Wins 1, Draws 2, 1 goal losses 3, multi goal losses 0

USA D2 teams Single game

Wins 3, Draws 1, 1 goal losses 4, multi goal losses 10

CPL 2 legged ties

Wins 1, 1 goal losses 1, multi goal losses 1

USA D2 teams 2 legged ties

Wins 0, 1 goal losses 3, multi goal losses 6

 

So if we count draws as a positive result (which I think is fair in the context), CPL is better in every category except for single game wins. USA D2 teams have 3 times the single game wins in 3 times the number of games.

CPL so far has lost 50% of their games to MLS teams, whereas Edmonton/Ottawa have lost 56% of games to MLS teams by multiple goals, and 78% of their games to MLS teams overall.

So yes, with the small sample size, it does look like CPL teams are better than the NASL and USL teams were. It will be interesting to see if CPL teams can maintain the impressive results from year 1 or if they regress to the mean.

[RJB]

So basically, the CSA is saying that the "best" team in CPL is only as good as a garbage MLS team (Whitecaps)?  Capitulation.

[Blackdude]

1 hour ago, RJB said:

So basically, the CSA is saying that the "best" team in CPL is only as good as a garbage MLS team (Whitecaps)?  Capitulation.

Both lost to the same team in the same competition. It's hard to say that one is better than the other. 

[Watchmen]

On 1/30/2020 at 7:41 PM, Kent said:

You answered zero of my questions. I am the guy that was advocating for the number of teams in the Canadian Championship to be filled out to a good tournament number (like 16 or even 32) with D3 teams, and then doing a completely random draw.

I am also the guy who kept track of results in the CCL and CL and determined their CONCACAF rank before CONCACAF did, and advocated for those numbers being used to determine how many spots each country gets, and in which competition. Your NASL/USL question does nothing against my argument. I didn’t even like it when it was a 5 team tournament and the two D2 teams had to play each other before making it to the Voyageurs Cup proper. I thought it robbed a fan base of seeing their team against an MLS team.

But I guess I will take a stab at answering your question. Here are the results compiled since 2011 (when Edmonton started).

CPL Single game

Wins 1, Draws 2, 1 goal losses 3, multi goal losses 0

USA D2 teams Single game

Wins 3, Draws 1, 1 goal losses 4, multi goal losses 10

CPL 2 legged ties

Wins 1, 1 goal losses 1, multi goal losses 1

USA D2 teams 2 legged ties

Wins 0, 1 goal losses 3, multi goal losses 6

 

So if we count draws as a positive result (which I think is fair in the context), CPL is better in every category except for single game wins. USA D2 teams have 3 times the single game wins in 3 times the number of games.

CPL so far has lost 50% of their games to MLS teams, whereas Edmonton/Ottawa have lost 56% of games to MLS teams by multiple goals, and 78% of their games to MLS teams overall.

So yes, with the small sample size, it does look like CPL teams are better than the NASL and USL teams were. It will be interesting to see if CPL teams can maintain the impressive results from year 1 or if they regress to the mean.

If we're going based on the very, very limited sample size of last year: USL is better than CPL.  After all, the only USL team beat a CPL team.

This argument reminds me of when the Voyagers Cup first started as a more formalized tournament under the CSA, and an absolutely garbage TFC team struggled against two USL powerhouses in Montreal and Vancouver.  MLS was still the better league, but the gap between those specific teams was much smaller.  Last year, the best CPL side knocked out an absolutely embarrassing and shambolic MLS team, lost to a mid-tier MLS team in both legs, and avoided the best MLS team available because the CPL team lost to a USL team.

The CPL was of better quality than I think even the most optimistic people thought.  It can get better.  But it is still well behind MLS in terms of overall quality.  Having the MLS teams enter at the quarterfinals is the most logical thing, but I look forward to the day when it's a blind draw at that stage and you have the possibility of an all MLS match up earlier.

[Stouffvillain]

On 1/30/2020 at 4:45 PM, Kent said:

When exactly does CPL deserve to be treated equally to MLS? An “eye test” is way too subjective. It shouldn’t be based on money figures or attendance. If the answer is “results” then what exactly do the results need to be? Because CPL has already eliminated an MLS team, and I am pretty sure there weren’t even any 2 goal wins by MLS teams over CPL teams yet. That doesn’t exactly scream lower league.

To give MLS teams an advantage just because, without setting any parameters for CPL deserving equality in the future is just wrong in my opinion.

The examples you mentioned are poor because those bye’s in other countries were earned by climbing the league ladder to the top division. There is no such thing from CPL to MLS. So it is fair in their systems, but not in ours.

Yes, you are correct that Canada is unlike the countries I mentioned and you are right that a CPL team beat an MLS team last year. That doesn’t put the CPL on par with the MLS clubs.  Do you expect that to be the norm? Why do you think it was such a big deal when it happened? It’s because everyone knew that Cavalry (and the CPL) are underdogs. 
 

I see your posts on here Kent, you’re a knowledgeable guy. You can’t honestly say the CPL clubs should be seen as equal to their MLS counterparts because the both are in “D1” leagues. 
 

When CPL clubs have similar salaries to MLS clubs (you’re right Again, eye test is too subjective) it’s time to re-evaluate. I would even exclude DP’s, Tam players from that equation. Outside of that, unless we start seeing CPL teams consistently prove they are on par with MLS clubs (the starters, not their reserves) MLS clubs should be last to enter the competition.