2020 Voyageurs Cup Format

[Kent]

Hypothetical question. Let’s say CPL abolishes the salary cap and one team spends as much on players as the MLS salary cap. Does that mean CPL teams then get to start at the same round as MLS teams? Or if the numbers mean only 3 teams earn a bye, does it go to the three highest spending teams? What if salaries rise in CPL to MLS level, so CSA puts them in the same round, but then later a gap re-forms between them, do they drop back down then? Like I said before, I don’t think you should base it on money.

Anyways, no I don’t think CPL teams have the same quality as MLS teams, and no I don’t expect another win over MLS teams this year. However, I find it weird that the CSA are the ones that have dubbed MLS and CPL both D1, but then they turn around and say for the purposes of this tournament, MLS teams are more D1 than CPL.

[Blackdude]

4 minutes ago, Kent said:

I find it weird that the CSA are the ones that have dubbed MLS and CPL both D1, but then they turn around and say for the purposes of this tournament, MLS teams are more D1 than CPL.

Because MLS isn't D1. It just isn't ranked.

[SthMelbRed]

If this was the UEFA Champions League, seedings would be based on results over a rolling 5-year period. So, even though Napoli has 2 wins and a draw against Liverpool across 4 meetings in the last 16 months, Liverpool is still ranked higher, on the back of two consecutive final appearances, winning it last year. Real Madrid lost over 2 legs to Ajax last year, but are still the top-ranked club in the competition. Roma knocked Barcelona out of the competition 2 seasons ago, yet Barca remains ahead of them in the rankings/seedings.

 

It's too early to be ranking CPL teams based on a single outlier result.

[Kent]

13 hours ago, SthMelbRed said:

If this was the UEFA Champions League, seedings would be based on results over a rolling 5-year period. So, even though Napoli has 2 wins and a draw against Liverpool across 4 meetings in the last 16 months, Liverpool is still ranked higher, on the back of two consecutive final appearances, winning it last year. Real Madrid lost over 2 legs to Ajax last year, but are still the top-ranked club in the competition. Roma knocked Barcelona out of the competition 2 seasons ago, yet Barca remains ahead of them in the rankings/seedings.

 

It's too early to be ranking CPL teams based on a single outlier result.

I agree, but the point is that they don’t seem to have any scoring system like this in place. In the absence of a scoring system they should be treated equally in my opinion. It looks like they are choosing to say MLS teams get to start later by rule, rather than some sort of fair system that doesn’t discriminate against the teams in a Canadian league.

[MM3/MM2/MM]

19 hours ago, Kent said:

I agree, but the point is that they don’t seem to have any scoring system like this in place. In the absence of a scoring system they should be treated equally in my opinion. It looks like they are choosing to say MLS teams get to start later by rule, rather than some sort of fair system that doesn’t discriminate against the teams in a Canadian league.

If the CSA keeps the current format of giving teams byes then the fairest way to do it to seed the four teams that made the semi-finals in the previous championship.

[Stouffvillain]

On 2/1/2020 at 10:05 PM, Kent said:

Hypothetical question. Let’s say CPL abolishes the salary cap and one team spends as much on players as the MLS salary cap. Does that mean CPL teams then get to start at the same round as MLS teams? Or if the numbers mean only 3 teams earn a bye, does it go to the three highest spending teams? What if salaries rise in CPL to MLS level, so CSA puts them in the same round, but then later a gap re-forms between them, do they drop back down then? Like I said before, I don’t think you should base it on money.

Anyways, no I don’t think CPL teams have the same quality as MLS teams, and no I don’t expect another win over MLS teams this year. However, I find it weird that the CSA are the ones that have dubbed MLS and CPL both D1, but then they turn around and say for the purposes of this tournament, MLS teams are more D1 than CPL.

MLS is the US D1, CPL is the Canadian D1.  I don't think the CSA had anything to do with declaring MLS D1.

Overall these are early year growing pains.  As the CPL expands the byes should get pushed back to earlier rounds.  When the CPL grows in quality to the point where it isn't seen as a David vs Goliath match in every CPL v MLS draw you can look to having other ways to award byes.  This is a young competition with a new league and Canada is in a unique situation.  There is no need, at this point, to set all the rules in stone.

[Viruk42]

So I don't know how trustworthy he is, but Jeremy Filosa seems to think that Ottawa being added would give the Impact a bye to the semis

I'm pretty baffled by this idea, because there would then only be three quarter final games and the CSA would have to take 12 teams and reduce it to 3. The only mathematical way I can see that working would be no team, other than the Impact, get any byes. First round would be all 12 teams (including TFC, Vancouver, and Cavalry, who all currently don't play that round), second round the 6 winners, third round the 3 winners + Impact. This would mean that the Impact would only need 2 games to make the final while any other team would need to play 6 games to make it.

[narduch]

Im assuming they would go back to the previous year format in this case. Where TFC had the bye to the semis

[Viruk42]

57 minutes ago, narduch said:

Im assuming they would go back to the previous year format in this case. Where TFC had the bye to the semis

You may be right, but that would force some teams to play more games than the current schedule - it feels less obtrusive and, frankly, more fair to drop a bye (Cavalry or Vancouver, presumably) than to essentially drop a "bye" for 6 teams (aka adding an extra round).

[dnina10]

A couple of weeks ago I posted my frustrations about Forge FC not getting a bye while the Vancouver Whitecaps got a bye to the quarter finals. Before I go on, I will point out that although my allegiance is with Forge, there is by no means any bias involved in my thinking. My justification was that Forge FC won the CPL, while the Whitecaps finished bottom of their Western Conference in MLS last season. Both teams lost in the first round they participated in the Canadian Championship last season. Keep in mind the four semifinalists from last season got a bye to the quarterfinals for this season. Of course, the Ottawa Fury, who were one of the semifinalists last season have ceased operations, thus opening up a bye. My other reasoning for why Forge should get the bye over Whitecaps FC is something that is quite common in many domestic cups around the world. The teams that participate in continental competitions get the furthest byes in comparison to other teams, which is something I can agree that. Examples include EFL Cup, Coppa Italia, KNVB Beker, Toto Cup Ligat Al, and the Scottish League Cup. Yes, some of those competitions are just league cups and are not as significant as a national cup, but the idea is there. Getting back to the Canadian Championship, the Impact and Forge FC are the only Canadian teams participating in CONCACAF competitions, so why shouldn't they be the first teams to get the benefit of a bye? They are going to have to go to at least one other country outside of Canada and the US, making their schedule even more hectic. That is my opinion, and I am interested to hear some other opinions

[Ruffian]

Maybe there needs to be a Canadian Club ranking developed based upon the last 5 to 10 years in the Voyageurs cup that is then used to place teams in the next years competition.

[narduch]

24 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

Maybe there needs to be a Canadian Club ranking developed based upon the last 5 to 10 years in the Voyageurs cup that is then used to place teams in the next years competition.

Most nations just base it on the previous year Domestic league standings.

Why do we have to complicate things?

[Ruffian]

1 minute ago, narduch said:

Most nations just base it on the previous year Domestic league standings.

Why do we have to complicate things?

I think you can answer that yourself without anybody telling you.

[narduch]

Just now, Ruffian said:

I think you can answer that yourself without anybody telling you.

LOL. I should know better.

[deschamp86]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Most nations just base it on the previous year Domestic league standings.

Why do we have to complicate things?

Because we have two "domestic leagues"

[nfitz]

13 hours ago, deschamp86 said:

Because we have two "domestic leagues"

Two leagues at vastly different levels. Vancouver underperformed last year, and had an $8.1 million payroll and average $272,000 per player salary. That's over 10 times higher than the CPL, if I've heard correctly.

(Toronto had a $24.3 million payroll, and an average of about $758,000 for it's 32 players ... about 32 times the CPL ... meanwhile Montreal came in at $13 million).

It's not unusual at the national cup level, for the higher quality league to all have a bye to a later round. Even the year after one team get's knocked out by a minnow.

And that will continue until there is more parity between the leagues.

[dnina10]

On 2/12/2020 at 11:09 AM, deschamp86 said:

Because we have two "domestic leagues"

I don't know about having two domestic leagues. MLS is an American league with 3 Canadian teams as guests. I don't know how one could call that a Canadian domestic league...

[deschamp86]

6 hours ago, dnina10 said:

I don't know about having two domestic leagues. MLS is an American league with 3 Canadian teams as guests. I don't know how one could call that a Canadian domestic league...

You know how quotations work sometimes right?

[dnina10]

8 hours ago, deschamp86 said:

You know how quotations work sometimes right?

Yeah I do. Just don't know why they'd be applied there

[Unnamed Trialist]

So let's draft some criteria for the Voyageurs Cup.

The aim is to strengthen its prestige and defend its integrity.

1-The CSA should continue to seek out formulas to include the maximum number of Canadian clubs in the Voyageurs Cup (Canadian Championship competition). The criteria should be laid out clearly to include all professional MLS and CPL clubs, as well as semi-professional and amateur clubs competing in legitimate competitions, including USL2 and the provincial elite leagues.

2-The winner of the Voyageurs Cup should play at least 6 matches to be able to lift the trophy. This establishes a minimum criteria of participation, helps legitimise any final success, and ensures that no team receive a bye into semi-finals.

3-Canadian teams playing in Concacaf competitions should be considered for a bye into later rounds, which with the current participation level should be quarter finals. This is a standard practice for Cups throughout the world, and would allow Canadian clubs to compete effectively in representation of Canada on the international club stage. Currently this would include the previous year's winner of the Voyageur's Cup and the previous CPL champion.

4-Rounds previous to quarter finals can be drawn using regional criteria, to reduce travelling costs. The CSA should ensure formulas for amateur teams to cover costs incurred in travelling to compete for the Canadian Championship, whether through direct funding, broadcast rights or sponsorship.

5-The CSA should establish a ranking points system to assist in determining draws and byes for the Voyageurs Cup. Many formulas currently exist that are used by national associations and federations in FIFA.

A possible system would be to accumlate these points over a previous period (eg 3 years). 

Until this point system comes into effect, the CSA should use historical participation in the competition as well as the other criteria indicated here to determine draws.

6-In the awarding of the Voyageurs Cup, fans of participating teams in the finals should participate in the award ceremony. It should be considered that original donors to the Voyaguers Cup and/or accredited longtime fans be chosen for this task, in a rotating system. Fans could also be chosen impartially through a draw from amongst requests for participation.

7-The Voyageurs and Canadian soccer supporters, as original founders and custodians of the Voyageurs Cup, call on the CSA and all Canadian holders of the trophy to ensure its optimal physical condition and proper display in the holding club's premises.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Unnamed Trialist

[Unnamed Trialist]

57 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

So let's draft some criteria for the Voyageurs Cup.

The aim is to strengthen its prestige and defend its integrity.

1-The CSA should continue to seek out formulas to include the maximum number of Canadian clubs in the Voyageurs Cup (Canadian Championship competition). The criteria should be laid out clearly to include all professional MLS and CPL clubs, as well as semi-professional and amateur clubs competing in legitimate competitions, including USL2 and the provincial elite leagues.

2-The winner of the Voyageurs Cup should play at least 6 matches to be able to lift the trophy. This establishes a minimum criteria of participation, helps legitimise any final success, and ensures that no team receive a bye into semi-finals.

3-Canadian teams playing in Concacaf competitions should be considered for a bye into later rounds, which with the current participation level should be quarter finals. This is a standard practice for Cups throughout the world, and would allow Canadian clubs to compete effectively in representation of Canada on the international club stage. Currently this would include the previous year's winner of the Voyageur's Cup and the previous CPL champion.

4-Rounds previous to quarter finals can be drawn using regional criteria, to reduce travelling costs. The CSA should ensure formulas for amateur teams to cover costs incurred in travelling to compete for the Canadian Championship, whether through direct funding, broadcast rights or sponsorship.

5-The CSA should establish a ranking points system to assist in determining draws and byes for the Voyageurs Cup. Many formulas currently exist that are used by national associations and federations in FIFA.

A possible system would be to accumlate these points over a previous period (eg 3 years). 

Until this point system comes into effect, the CSA should use historical participation in the competition as well as the other criteria indicated here to determine draws.

6-In the awarding of the Voyageurs Cup, fans of participating teams in the finals should participate in the award ceremony. It should be considered that original donors to the Voyaguers Cup and/or accredited longtime fans be chosen for this task, in a rotating system. Fans could also be chosen impartially through a draw from amongst requests for participation.

7-The Voyageurs and Canadian soccer supporters, as original founders and custodians of the Voyageurs Cup, call on the CSA and all Canadian holders of the trophy to ensure its optimal physical condition and proper display in the holding club's premises.

In relation to the above criteria for the Voyageurs Cup, following is a possible point or coefficient system for deciding ranking in draws, and the resulting points result from last year's competition. The system would only click into place after three years of competition. What do you think?

COEFFICIENT/POINTS SYSTEM FOR VOYAGEURS CUP (CANADIAN CHAMPIONSHIP)

Points for results

1 point for every draw in a Voyageurs Cup match

3 points for every win in a Voyageurs Cup match

Points for passing rounds. The following points are applied once from the final round passed and are not accumulative.

2 points for qualifying for the Voyageurs Cup from a league competition other than MLS or CPL

5 points for passing a first round

8 points for passing into quarter finals.

12 points for passing into semi finals

18 points for passing into the finals

25 points for winning the Cup

 

Forge FC                             1

Vancouver Whitecaps      1

Valour FC                            2

AS Blainville                       2+1 = 3

Vaughn Azzuri                   3

FC Edmonton                    3

HFX Wanderers                3+4+1+8 = 16

York 9                                 4+3+1+8 = 16

Ottawa Fury                       4+12 = 16

Toronto FC                         6+18 = 24

Cavalry FC                          6+4+4+12 = 26

Montreal Impact                4+6+25 = 35

Edited February 20, 2020 by Unnamed Trialist

[narduch]

I don't think a coefficient system is really necessary. Just rank the teams based on the previous domestic season.

The 3 MLS clubs and CPL champions start in the quarter finals.

I went to look it up: PDL/USL 2 season runs from May 3 to July 17. So lets say the expanded event could start in mid-May. We are starting June 17 this year.

[Ruffian]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

I don't think a coefficient system is really necessary. Just rank the teams based on the previous domestic season.

The 3 MLS clubs and CPL champions start in the quarter finals.

I went to look it up: PDL/USL 2 season runs from May 3 to July 17. So lets say the expanded event could start in mid-May. We are starting June 17 this year.

I think you will find a lot of people here do not accept the 3 MLS clubs getting a bye ahead of other CPL teams and I think they have an argument. If your argument is that MLS clubs are better and should start later then they will be awarded by being better in the competition and getting better starting positions.

[narduch]

11 minutes ago, Ruffian said:

I think you will find a lot of people here do not accept the 3 MLS clubs getting a bye ahead of other CPL teams and I think they have an argument. If your argument is that MLS clubs are better and should start later then they will be awarded by being better in the competition and getting better starting positions.

My argument is that they play more matches and have greater fixture congestion worries. Especially the team that is in the CCL.

We can't lie to ourselves that there is not a league hierarchy.

We also don't want the better teams pummeling the lower league teams all the time.

How many other nations use a coefficient system to seed their domestic Cup? My guess is barely any. Most nations seed based on the previous domestic season, with provisions for teams involved in Continental Cups.

Edited February 20, 2020 by narduch

[Stouffvillain]

@Unnamed Trialist

You're right the CSA should do everything they can to lift the prestige of the V Cup. Elevating the importance of the Voyageurs Cup would help satiate the appetite for playoffs within the CPL season.  Cup competitions are essentially playoffs but unless the teams and fans want that cup as much as the league title the competition will be seen as a nuisance.  I'd love to see many of your ideas implemented, bye to the semi-finals is a joke. 

From what I've heard in the past though was that the the CSA has wanted to expand the tournament but L1O and PLSQ weren't interested in having more entries as clubs didn't want to take on the additional costs.  

Prestige and integrity of the tournament will come from more quality performances from CPL clubs.  CPL expansion to expand the tournament, upsets over MLS clubs, and hopefully lifting the V Cup. 

As @Ruffian pointed out there has been long conversation about when CPL and MLS clubs enter the competition, the unique situation that Canada finds itself in lends itself to finding unique solutions.  The point system proposed could do with some tweaking but it is a good solution to the debates had here on these forums.