General Discussion on CMNT

[harrycoyster]

16 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I'm not saying they shouldn't get some u17 games, but I was reading after the US's World Cup failure that it's the u20 program that is the biggest/best indicator of future success.  More than the u17 or Olympic teams.  But really, at this stage, I'd take any games at any age level.

By the time our players are 19, they are a far distance behind their CR,US,MEX counterparts. If you accept youth results (both MLS clubs and country) as the metric, our players generally fall behind at ages 16-17. Sure, the u20s are the best indicator of professional success, but the u17s are the best indicator of u20 success, and our u17 teams have been disappointing for a longgggggg time. We've literally never won a game at the u17 World Cup, and the only time we've finished top two at the CONCACAF Championship was the year Mexico withdrew their side. 

 

[jpg75]

Having more games for your U17 is all well and good but it's not really going to have a dramatic impact on overall player development. The bulk of development occurs with the clubs, an extra camp or two with 2-4 more games per year for a handful of kids out of 20 who'll statistically land a pro contract is a drop in the ocean.

For me i'd like to see a well run U21/23 program to bridge the gap between U20 and MNT. 

[SpecialK]

16 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

Having more games for your U17 is all well and good but it's not really going to have a dramatic impact on overall player development. The bulk of development occurs with the clubs, an extra camp or two with 2-4 more games per year for a handful of kids out of 20 who'll statistically land a pro contract is a drop in the ocean.

For me i'd like to see a well run U21/23 program to bridge the gap between U20 and MNT. 

More games For U17 and U20 teams in Canada are very very important and  necessary. Also they need to be against good teams so the players feel they can showcase their talent and play against the best. We need these young players to feel a strong connection to Canada so they don’t jump ship to another nation, specially if their players playing outside North America or leaving to go aboard. 

[jpg75]

4 minutes ago, SpecialK said:

More games For U17 and U20 teams in Canada are very very important and  necessary. Also they need to be against good teams so the players feel they can showcase their talent and play against the best. We need these young players to feel a strong connection to Canada so they don’t jump ship to another nation, specially if their players playing outside North America or leaving to go aboard. 

Well that's your opinion and i disagree. Stats show most of the kids at the U17 level never go on to play professionally and even less at the MNT level so why divert more resources into a poor investment? 

I agree with holding those U15 camps to ID more players and bring them into the fold earlier, that might help retain dual nationals, but more games at U17? meh.

[jpg75]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

 I was reading after the US's World Cup failure that it's the u20 program that is the biggest/best indicator of future success.  More than the u17 or Olympic teams.

Interesting. Based on results ie. the US qualifying for U20's regularly and not qualifying for 3 of the past 4 Olympics i would think the U23's matter more.

[SpecialK]

7 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

Well that's your opinion and i disagree. Stats show most of the kids at the U17 level never go on to play professionally and even less at the MNT level so why divert more resources into a poor investment? 

I agree with holding those U15 camps to ID more players and bring them into the fold earlier, that might help retain dual nationals, but more games at U17? meh.

Poor investment? When the U20 played England how many of our players got scouted but huge clubs and are now in Europe or will be soon ? If the U17 and the U20 play more games against more teams and against good teams, we are going to give those players  more exposure and more opportunities for those players to develop and move to better places, specially if you had player pool of like 40-80 players playing. We could get a really good idea about  status on our young Canadian talent 

[harrycoyster]

Pulisic and McKennie both went overseas after being IDed by German scouts at u17 USYNT games, and they've become two of the USMNTs top players in the three years since. I'd be more inclined to agree with you @jpg75 if we were playing 6-7 u17 games a cycle before the CONCACAF Championship, but we're basically playing none while the big 3 play 10-15. It's not like the US or Mexican rosters change much from 15 to 17 so either A- somehow the US is doing a far better job of developing talent at clubs from ages 16-17 than we are...which would be weird since we use the same youth apparatus or B- they are gaining some sort of advantage outside the USSDA.

Granted, I understand we aren't starting from the same level here as the US u15s have been more gifted then our kids for 20 years now, but the point remains that the gap becomes cavernous between u15 and u17.

[jpg75]

2 hours ago, SpecialK said:

Poor investment? When the U20 played England how many of our players got scouted but huge clubs and are now in Europe or will be soon ? If the U17 and the U20 play more games against more teams and against good teams, we are going to give those players  more exposure and more opportunities for those players to develop and move to better places, specially if you had player pool of like 40-80 players playing. We could get a really good idea about  status on our young Canadian talent 

So who signed because of that England game? Exactly.

[jpg75]

1 hour ago, harrycoyster said:

Pulisic and McKennie both went overseas after being IDed by German scouts at u17 USYNT games, and they've become two of the USMNTs top players in the three years since.

I'd be more inclined to agree with you @jpg75 if we were playing 6-7 u17 games a cycle before the CONCACAF Championship, but we're basically playing none while the big 3 play 10-15.

Don't they both have European passports? And how many millions does the US spend on it's residency program?

This last group played 10 or 11 games i believe. The U15 tournament in Mexico in 2015 and camps in Panama, US and Jamaica in 2016. But the previous couple of groups before them played more like 6-7 games.

[Guest]

Honduras was eliminated by Australia. Happy days

[Califax]

4 hours ago, canta15 said:

Honduras was eliminated by Australia. Happy days

Logged in to look for this. Looks good on em.

#suckitfoodpoisoners

[matty]

Dear CSA and SUM

Canada and the US should co-host that NIT thing next summer.

- Idiot

[Kadenge]

7 hours ago, canta15 said:

Honduras was eliminated by Australia. Happy days

so this is what it took to knock Honduras out of the WC, something we have not been able to do the past 2 WC cycles:

Australia's starting 11 players (Team/League): Ryan (BHA- EPL),Sainsbury (China SL),Jurman (South Korea), Wright (Bristol City- Championship), Mooy (Huddersfield -Championship), Milligan (A- league), Jedinak (Villa- Championship, has played in EPL and scored the hat trick), Eraltay (Turkey), Leckie (Herta Berlin), Cahill (A- league, but previously in EPL), Rogic (Celtic).

2  in top 5 Leagues and 4 (Championship and Celtic) in next tier plus  Cahill who is past his prime. Not a powerhouse team but when you compare it to the CMNT, we have Arfield in top 5, Atiba/Jnr in next tier and then perhaps Larin/Cavallini/Borjan.  Don't know if Liga MX is comparable to the English Championship?, but  we really drop off after those 6.  You can see why Oz was aggressively pursuing the 2 dual nationals as they would instantly elevate the CMNT to perhaps the level of Australia.  Larin needs to land in a solid Euro League hopefully in January and  Davies to follow him the next season. I don't see anyone else moving up...... perhaps James? I really hope Henry can stay fit and get some games in the Championship in January.

 

 

[matty]

10 minutes ago, Kadenge said:

so this is what it took to knock Honduras out of the WC, something we have not been able to do the past 2 WC cycles:

Australia's starting 11 players (Team/League): Ryan (BHA- EPL),Sainsbury (China SL),Jurman (South Korea), Wright (Bristol City- Championship), Mooy (Huddersfield -Championship), Milligan (A- league), Jedinak (Villa- Championship, has played in EPL and scored the hat trick), Eraltay (Turkey), Leckie (Herta Berlin), Cahill (A- league, but previously in EPL), Rogic (Celtic).

2  in top 5 Leagues and 4 (Championship and Celtic) in next tier plus  Cahill who is past his prime. Not a powerhouse team but when you compare it to the CMNT, we have Arfield in top 5, Atiba/Jnr in next tier and then perhaps Larin/Cavallini/Borjan.  Don't know if Liga MX is comparable to the English Championship?, but  we really drop off after those 6.  You can see why Oz was aggressively pursuing the 2 dual nationals as they would instantly elevate the CMNT to perhaps the level of Australia.  Larin needs to land in a solid Euro League hopefully in January and  Davies to follow him the next season. I don't see anyone else moving up...... perhaps James? I really hope Henry can stay fit and get some games in the Championship in January.

Mexico is usually included on par with RSL and Turkey's league.

I agree about Larin and Davies and do see James moving to a Czech level league in the future. The big thing I hope is that more Canadians including Osorio and AJH try their luck and try to land a job in Mexico.

I know a lot here will say that's too high for them but honestly the difference between Mexico and US based US MNT players is almost not even a thing. I'm sure a few of our guys could land a decent gig there.

Edited November 15, 2017 by matty

[harrycoyster]

15 minutes ago, matty said:

Mexico is usually included on par with RSL and Turkey's league.

I agree about Larin and Davies and do see James moving to a Czech level league in the future. The big thing I hope is that more Canadians including Osorio and AJH try their luck and try to land a job in Mexico.

Christian Ramirez did some big offers from Liga MX, so AJH could make his way onto the Liga MX radar. Players like Osorio however are a dime a dozen in Mexico, which is why 90% of international midfielders brought into Liga MX are physical, high percentage passers. Shifty, dribbly, quick is never in short supply. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by harrycoyster

[Zem]

1 hour ago, Kadenge said:

Mooy (Huddersfield -Championship)

Huddersfield and Mooy were promoted to the EPL btw

[Watchmen]

17 hours ago, jpg75 said:

Interesting. Based on results ie. the US qualifying for U20's regularly and not qualifying for 3 of the past 4 Olympics i would think the U23's matter more.

Yeah, but look at some of the actual results:

2009 - out in the group stage, finished 18th

2011 - failed to qualify

2013 - out in the group stage, finished 22nd

The US failed to qualify for the last World Cup, and it's the failure of that specific development cycle that they're looking at as one of the causes of it.   

[jpg75]

28 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

Yeah, but look at some of the actual results:

2009 - out in the group stage, finished 18th

2011 - failed to qualify

2013 - out in the group stage, finished 22nd

The US failed to qualify for the last World Cup, and it's the failure of that specific development cycle that they're looking at as one of the causes of it.   

Ok, not arguing those are good results and we're probably arguing the same thing.

Now look at the combined output of the 2009 and '11 U20 cycles to form the 2012 U23 player pool that didn't qualify. Then the players from '13 and '15 formed the failed 2016 group. There's 3 years from the end of the older U20 cycle to the U23 qualifiers and the staff has time to ID new players that step up at the club level. Is that happening or are they just using the same failed players?

Edited November 16, 2017 by jpg75

[harrycoyster]

11 minutes ago, jpg75 said:

Ok, not arguing those are good results. Now look at the combined output of the 2009 and '11 U20 cycles to form the 2012 U23's that didn't qualify. Then the players from '13 and '15 formed the failed 2016 group.

I just don't think the u23s are a good snapshot of a country's talent at the level. For example, the US has to try to qualify for the Olympics while many of their best players aren't released for qualifying. Mexico is the only other team in CONCACAF that regularly faces that barrier, and that plays a large part in why the US and Mexico don't put up the results in u23 tournaments that they do in other CONCACAF tournaments.

For the 2019 qualifiers, it's extremely likely that none of Christian Pulisic, Weston McKennie, Tyler Adams, Cameron Carter-Vickers, Erik Palmer-Brown, and Jonathan Gonzalez get released to the US team. Mexico has it a bit easier as they keep more of their players domestic until 23-24, but they still won't get all of Erick Aguirre, Orbelin Pineda, and Cesar Montes released. Which u23 Canadians wouldn't get released? Maybe Davies by then...that's about it.

The same applies to a lesser extend to u20s, though I'd say that the u20s are the best predictor of future success in Canada given our current circumstances. 

Edited November 16, 2017 by harrycoyster

[jpg75]

Canada has notoriously been unable to have their top players released as well over the past couple of decades at Olympic qualifiers.

Anyways, that is a good point. Honduras have typically not had the same problem so it does skew results.

[badname22]

What would our best eleven be right now?

 

[matty]

36 minutes ago, badname22 said:

What would our best eleven be right now?

 

At what level?

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, badname22 said:

What would our best eleven be right now?

 

And best as in preparing for the next World Cup? Or the team we'd field if our countries destruction was on the line?

[badname22]

9 minutes ago, matty said:

At what level?

senior

[matty]

I suck with formations but.....(I'm going with the usuals)

Borjan

James - Jakovic - de Jong - Random person

Arfield - Junior - Piette - Random person

Larin - AJH