CPL General

[Wingback6]

The CPL is becoming the Star Citizen of Canadian Sports.

[Macksam]

10 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

The MLS/NFL ownership types (Krafts, Kroenke's, etc..) are paying big fees to get into e-sports:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overwatch_League

Wouldn't be surprised to see MLSE jump in soon.

I looked at the roster make up of some of the American based teams and the lack of domestic talent is disturbing. I think the USA could use an Ajax like academy for developing video gamer talent.

Edited December 18, 2017 by Macksam

[matty]

11 hours ago, Dub Narcotic said:

The MLS/NFL ownership types (Krafts, Kroenke's, etc..) are paying big fees to get into e-sports:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overwatch_League

Wouldn't be surprised to see MLSE jump in soon.

That's cause e-sports gets the younger viewers.

I wonder, how long until a mix of CFL and NHL ownership establish the COD Canadian Championships?

Edited December 18, 2017 by matty

[Bison44]

The problem is that our e-sport kids are just gifted spots, they dont have to fight everyday at WOW and donkey kong training.  We dont have the passion for video games that germany, spain or china have.  

LERROOYYY JENKINSSSSSS!!!  

[matty]

41 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

The problem is that our e-sport kids are just gifted spots, they dont have to fight everyday at WOW and donkey kong training.  We dont have the passion for video games that germany, spain or china have.  

LERROOYYY JENKINSSSSSS!!!  

I disagree. Our kids areas passionate about video games as anyone else. Want proof? More Canadians called to preorder battletoads from game stop than anywhere else.

[Dub Narcotic]

Chatter is heating up about the NBA almost certainly coming back to Seattle and possibly Vancouver. That would suck up a lot of sports dollars from the lower mainland.

[dyslexic nam]

Wrestling, NBA, e-gaming...

"Anything but CPL General"

[matty]

14 minutes ago, dyslexic nam said:

Wrestling, NBA, e-gaming...

"Anything but CPL General"

FUCK YEA!

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

 

Quote

"Anything but CPL General"

To be fair there's not a lot to talk about right now. Think it's wildly optimistic to expect $1.75 million player budgets for teams based in Halifax and Saskatoon. Maybe the total budgets would be that? Think they would need a relatively low hard cap and a rigidly enforced minimum spend to keep a league stable because one of the main lessons to be drawn from the original CSL is that spectators and more importantly investors in the smaller markets soon tire of seeing their team annihilated by a dominant Vancouver 86ers type franchise when there aren't decades of tradition behind a league to keep people hooked, while those in the larger markets very quickly start to only show up to see the best teams in the league when the weaker franchises are well off the pace in quality terms.

Edited December 21, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[LAK]

22 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

 

To be fair there's not a lot to talk about right now. Think it's wildly optimistic to expect $1.75 million player budgets for teams based in Halifax and Saskatoon. Maybe the total budgets would be that? Think they would need a relatively low hard cap and a rigidly enforced minimum spend to keep a league stable because one of the main lessons to be drawn from the original CSL is that spectators and more importantly investors in the smaller markets soon tire of seeing their team annihilated by a dominant Vancouver 86ers type franchise when there aren't decades of tradition behind a league to keep people hooked, while those in the larger markets very quickly start to only show up to see the best teams in the league when the weaker franchises are well off the pace in quality terms.

Halifax is being looked at for the CFL and Saskatoon is going to be Saskatchewan's team in the CPL, the same way Regina is home to the Roughriders (it's also bigger than Regina which brings out 33,000 per game for the Riders). As I understand it, the attendance goal is the same for all teams planned in the CPL, there will not be two tiers. So the budgets are the same. I know you have the impression that it's going to be a lot smaller scale than the CFL version...but I think it's still pretty close from the clubs that I have heard about. In fact, some of the markets discussed have been under-utilized by the CFL.

I don't believe that Halifax and Saskatoon indicate that the vision has changed or that there is no way that they can create a CFLesque league with those markets. Places with populations of 300,000 doesn't change that...well, in my opinion anyway.

 

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Soccer and the CFL skew towards different demographic groups, so a market being potentially suitable for the latter doesn't automtically make it a likely hotbed for the former given post-WWII immigration from soccer loving countries that helped to fuel much of TFC's 2007 attendances wasn't anything like as prevalent on the Prairies and in the Maritimes. Beyond that I was arguing that the league should very much avoid being two tier so a lot of your reply has little to do with what I just posted.

Paul Beirne has stated in podcasts that there is no TV deal factored in to their plans and crowds of 4500 to 6000 are needed to make it work. That points towards total budgets being somewhere in the $1million to $1.5million range (assuming realism over what things like youth soccer group sales do to average ticket prices) and player salaries probably being under $1million in total which I think is in line with what the Fury and FCE have been doing of late. 

Think Tom Fath views that as unsustainable based on his NASL experience and they are not finding it easy to put the six needed to launch plus two more in the pipeline together.  

Edited December 21, 2017 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[HfxCeltic]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

 

To be fair there's not a lot to talk about right now. Think it's wildly optimistic to expect $1.75 million player budgets for teams based in Halifax and Saskatoon. Maybe the total budgets would be that? Think they would need a relatively low hard cap and a rigidly enforced minimum spend to keep a league stable because one of the main lessons to be drawn from the original CSL is that spectators and more importantly investors in the smaller markets soon tire of seeing their team annihilated by a dominant Vancouver 86ers type franchise when there aren't decades of tradition behind a league to keep people hooked, while those in the larger markets very quickly start to only show up to see the best teams in the league when the weaker franchises are well off the pace in quality terms.

I attended a public meeting back in March with Paul Bierne and Derek Martin from SEA that discussed a little bit about the cap and Halifax's ability to spend to the limits of that cap. Here is the response.

Q – Will this be a cap league and are S|E|A prepared to spend up to that cap ceiling?

Derek – Yes and yes.

Paul – Jokes that he could go on for 20 minutes about the subject but Derek answered it fittingly.

Here is a link of minutes as a source (ctl+f "cap"): https://www.hfxwanderers.ca/single-post/2017/03/30/Recap-of-Information-Session

Just illustrates that the intention for smaller markets like Halifax is to spend up to the cap maximum and therefore get away from the imbalance that plagued the old CSL; I'm really hoping Halifax can be competitive and bring some hardware to the east coast. The minutes don't document this, but I seem to remember a salary cap max of $1.5m being mentioned at this same meeting. As you know, it's been floated as a cap max on here as well.

 

[Gopherbashi]

The intention of putting out money to produce a quality product is all well and good until it hits reality and you're swimming in red ink.  We'll see what things are like if this ever gets going and they have to worry about a budget as well.

[LAK]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Soccer and the CFL skew towards different demographic groups, so a market being potentially suitable for the latter doesn't automtically make it a likely hotbed for the former given post-WWII immigration from soccer loving countries that helped to fuel much of TFC's 2007 attendances wasn't anything like as prevalent on the Prairies and in the Maritimes. Beyond that I was arguing that the league should very much avoid being two tier so a lot of your reply has little to do with what I just posted.

Paul Beirne has stated in podcasts that there is no TV deal factored in to their plans and crowds of 4500 to 6000 are needed to make it work. That points towards total budgets being somewhere in the $1million to $1.5million range (assuming realism over what things like youth soccer group sales do to average ticket prices) and player salaries probably being under $1million in total which I think is in line with what the Fury and FCE have been doing of late. 

Think Tom Fath views that as unsustainable based on his NASL experience and they are not finding it easy to put the six needed to launch plus two more in the pipeline together.  

A second tier is not the same as Tier Two promotion-relegation, I meant teams that have and have-not. I don't see there being a huge difference between "big" clubs and the "300,000" population clubs...that's what I meant. As far as immigration from soccer loving countries, I know you've stated that before, I guess I don't feel it has as big an impact as you think that it does. According to that theory we should be starting a Cricket league in this country because it would be huge right now. I don't think it's as simple as that. I'm not disagreeing with you that immigration patterns do affect support on some level, I just don't think it's as important as you do.

I think that a Halifax or a Saskatoon, or even a Fraser Valley based BCFC team won't have a problem getting 4,500-6,000. The Saskatchewan Rush (in the winter season which does not compete with the Riders granted) averaged just shy of 15,000 which I believe is capacity at Sask Place or whatever they call it now. That was for a sport that was marginal at best in Saskatoon. Soccer is a lot bigger and the lack of professional sports in markets like Halifax and Saskatoon give it the leg up. That's why the Riders are the number one team in the CFL, it's the biggest thing in town. They come from all over the province for the Riders but I believe the season ticket holders are 75% from Regina. I would much rather launch a team in a place like Saskatoon, Halifax than another team in the GTA with the population of 6 million with a huge population of soccer loving immigration. There is so much more competition. That's got to be a factor that owners are looking at as well.

I can't argue the Tom Fath scenario...if he can't make it work in Edmonton it will be tough sledding for the CPL Edmonton. I guess the argument (and I'm not sure how good it is) is that the NASL was seen as a lower level of soccer and it was played against teams that Edmonton didn't care about (maybe the Cosmos were the exception?). However, when they had meaningful games in the Canadian champions league, the attendance was not that much better. 

I totally get that the danger is that the new owners and investors try to go big, it fails and they bail. Does Soccer Canada take a big step back at that point? I'm not sure. We'd still have MLS, the developmental teams have all been cut back drastically these last few years anyway. I would argue it's because any lower tiered level of soccer in Canada is just not sustainable. So, I think it's worth the risk to do it right, to go big and try to beat an MLS club in Canadian champions league, or even beat up a few teams from other CONCACAF leagues if we get our own spot. I think that would give the league credibility in the eyes of the casual fan.

 

[HfxCeltic]

Hearing rumours from a friend in the pub scene that SEA will soon be pushing hard to draw major attention to Halifax with announced exhibition games. Apparently in talks with some English clubs. No documented source or timeline, but these guys are heavily involved in a new pub downtown and the owners were chatting with SEA about CIS tournaments in Halifax, then got onto the subject of future plans.

[Rheo]

Probably nothing but interesting that the CPL website dropped a bunch of links to news stories on their front page in the last day. 

-article from Canada Soccer of the initial announcement

-Red Nation's article on CIS prospects

-article on TFC from Vancouver Sun

-then links to graphics on the CPL site for the World Cup bid and Atiba getting player of the year

As I said probably nothing but I'm glad to see them doing something with the site.  It's not much but not utilizing the website more than they have has been a mistake in my opinion.  Little things like the links shows the hardcores that they are doing stuff while we wait for the launch and gives more information to the casual fans who aren't as invested as we are.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Rheo

[matty]

1 hour ago, Rheo said:

Probably nothing but interesting that the CPL website dropped a bunch of links to news stories on their front page in the last day. 

-article from Canada Soccer of the initial announcement

-Red Nation's article on CIS prospects

-article on TFC from Vancouver Sun

-then links to graphics on the CPL site for the World Cup bid and Atiba getting player of the year

As I said probably nothing but I'm glad to see them doing something with the site.  It's not much but not utilizing the website more than they have has been a mistake in my opinion.  Little things like the links shows the hardcores that they are doing stuff while we wait for the launch and gives more information to the casual fans who aren't as invested as we are.

I was going to post a song but the only one called "I'm not Dead" was by Pink. While I respect the fact that she's emerged as the only one of the late-90s early-00s pop divas with staying power and appears to be a genuinely nice and passionate person, her music sucks IMO especially in an era with as many high level female musical talents as we have today.

The other video option was the "I'm not Dead" scene from Life of Brian but it does not seem fitting for this situation.

So instead here is a trash gif.

[paul-collins]

matty, I think you meant Holy Grail.  

[Gopherbashi]

6 hours ago, Rheo said:

Probably nothing but interesting that the CPL website dropped a bunch of links to news stories on their front page in the last day. 

-article from Canada Soccer of the initial announcement

-Red Nation's article on CIS prospects

-article on TFC from Vancouver Sun

-then links to graphics on the CPL site for the World Cup bid and Atiba getting player of the year

As I said probably nothing but I'm glad to see them doing something with the site.  It's not much but not utilizing the website more than they have has been a mistake in my opinion.  Little things like the links shows the hardcores that they are doing stuff while we wait for the launch and gives more information to the casual fans who aren't as invested as we are.

They've listened to us!

[matty]

5 hours ago, paul-collins said:

matty, I think you meant Holy Grail.  

blah yea. been ages since it watched either should likely catch up

[harrycoyster]

Reminder that Bernie said the CPL would have an official start date announced in 60-90 days at the Footy Talks panel back on October 5th. That's 78 days ago, so the announcement should be any day now.

Edited December 23, 2017 by harrycoyster

[Macksam]

On 2017-12-21 at 12:18 PM, LAK said:

A second tier is not the same as Tier Two promotion-relegation, I meant teams that have and have-not. I don't see there being a huge difference between "big" clubs and the "300,000" population clubs...that's what I meant. As far as immigration from soccer loving countries, I know you've stated that before, I guess I don't feel it has as big an impact as you think that it does. According to that theory we should be starting a Cricket league in this country because it would be huge right now. I don't think it's as simple as that. I'm not disagreeing with you that immigration patterns do affect support on some level, I just don't think it's as important as you do.

I think that a Halifax or a Saskatoon, or even a Fraser Valley based BCFC team won't have a problem getting 4,500-6,000. The Saskatchewan Rush (in the winter season which does not compete with the Riders granted) averaged just shy of 15,000 which I believe is capacity at Sask Place or whatever they call it now. That was for a sport that was marginal at best in Saskatoon. Soccer is a lot bigger and the lack of professional sports in markets like Halifax and Saskatoon give it the leg up. That's why the Riders are the number one team in the CFL, it's the biggest thing in town. They come from all over the province for the Riders but I believe the season ticket holders are 75% from Regina. I would much rather launch a team in a place like Saskatoon, Halifax than another team in the GTA with the population of 6 million with a huge population of soccer loving immigration. There is so much more competition. That's got to be a factor that owners are looking at as well.

I can't argue the Tom Fath scenario...if he can't make it work in Edmonton it will be tough sledding for the CPL Edmonton. I guess the argument (and I'm not sure how good it is) is that the NASL was seen as a lower level of soccer and it was played against teams that Edmonton didn't care about (maybe the Cosmos were the exception?). However, when they had meaningful games in the Canadian champions league, the attendance was not that much better. 

I totally get that the danger is that the new owners and investors try to go big, it fails and they bail. Does Soccer Canada take a big step back at that point? I'm not sure. We'd still have MLS, the developmental teams have all been cut back drastically these last few years anyway. I would argue it's because any lower tiered level of soccer in Canada is just not sustainable. So, I think it's worth the risk to do it right, to go big and try to beat an MLS club in Canadian champions league, or even beat up a few teams from other CONCACAF leagues if we get our own spot. I think that would give the league credibility in the eyes of the casual fan.

 

QFT

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

On 21/12/2017 at 12:18 PM, LAK said:

A second tier is not the same as Tier Two promotion-relegation, I meant teams that have and have-not.....

You don't appear to be understanding my posts because I was well aware of that and was arguing against that scenario emerging in the post you initially responded to. I did that mainly in response to Ansem suggesting that the Hamilton team could be allowed to operate on a much larger budget than the rest of the league. The 86ers blowing the rest of the Western Conference out of the water after the startup capital had been burned through elsewhere soon got very old in the original CSL and  was one of the factors that destabilized the whole league and ultimately led to a move to USSF sanctioning by teams in Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto in 1993 while the Rockets and Fury merged with what was left of Toronto's ethnic team based NSL to form the CNSL.

Interesting snippet of info from Harrycoyster immediately above. If nothing happens in that 60 to 90 days timeframe it seems reasonable to conclude that it's what Scott Mitchell was telling us to stay tuned for earlier this month and that something subsequently happened to delay things that Peter Schaad (Footysoldiers on twitter?) found infuriating and amazing that it hadn't leaked out yet. My money's still on the CSA reaserting control over the process and pushing things back to the next CSA AGM in May in terms of the next set of official announcements of where things are headed, but that's pure speculation on my part and time will tell. 

[Gopherbashi]

13 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

Reminder that Bernie said the CPL would have an official start date announced in 60-90 days at the Footy Talks panel back on October 5th. That's 78 days ago, so the announcement should be any day now.

How does the saying end after "Fool me fourteen times..."?

[matty]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

....If nothing happens in that 60 to 90 days timeframe it seems reasonable to conclude that it's what Scott Mitchell was telling us to stay tuned for earlier this month and that something subsequently happened to delay things that Peter Schaad....

No it's not. Again the tweet was NOT about an announcement and related to both CPL and CFL business. It was also linked to  single week during which it was confirmed the CPL was having meetings and the Ti-Cats made some biggish moves.