CPL General

[matty]

32 minutes ago, yellowsweatygorilla said:

I am not necessarily going to argue that its all about demographics, and I do believe that the sport can do well in places with less immigrants. And I know this is a very minor point, but I do have to challenge your point about China not being a Soccer Nation.  It's the most popular sport in the country. Heck, we like to claim we invented the game.  Domestics soccer does have support and international soccer gets significant attention.  I grew up in Hong Kong and that was pretty much the only sport followed.  while the domestic League does a lot better with the older  generation,  the English Premier League is certainly better supported then Canada.  and when Hong Kong played China this year the whole city was watching.  at TFC games I see a lot of Chinese season seat holders. 

I'd say China has had a recent resurgence over the last 15~ years after a dip in the mid 90s. It's always been big but I'd question if it's the true #1 team sport (basketball seems to be more popular in terms of involvement) and historic methods of funding stunted growth for a long time. I'd say it's similar to the States, a country where it's big and growing but not a soccer nation by the tradition definition. That said I think it'll reach that traditional definition of soccer nation faster than the States due to having more history with the sport.

Hong Kong I'd call a soccer nation straight up.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

15 hours ago, matty said:

...I don't see them be the driving force of the fanbase unless they form a supporters group.

The expensive seats and luxury boxes at the halfway line are what really pay the bills in pro sports, especially when a league is mainly gate driven. Supporters groups take themselves a little too seriously sometimes given they usually inhabit the cheapest seats in the house and are usually a relatively small percentage of the overall crowd. Worth noting that one of the things Tom Fath has been bemoaning on sustainability for FCE was the lack of corporate level interest in Edmonton and he doesn't seem to see that changing with CanPL so far.

One thing the three MLS markets have in abundance is rich soccer fans that were born overseas (Lino Saputo would be a prime example) and see using genuinely D1 level soccer with players like Drogba or Giovinco to entertain like-minded corporate clients as a natural thing to do. Edmonton, and even more so Halifax and Saskatoon, not so much so a future in the short to medium term revolving around the use of Ottawa Fury style youth soccer group sale discounts to paper the house for a low budget second tier league in quality terms is likely to beckon, because although the youth soccer registration boom of the last 20 years has increased recreational interest in the sport amongst the mainstream demographic that doesn't automatically translate to spectator interest.

[matty]

44 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The expensive seats and luxury boxes at the halfway line are what really pay the bills in pro sports, especially when a league is mainly gate driven. Supporters groups take themselves a little too seriously sometimes given they usually inhabit the cheapest seats in the house and are usually a relatively small percentage of the overall crowd. Worth noting that one of the things Tom Fath has been bemoaning on sustainability for FCE was the lack of corporate level interest in Edmonton and he doesn't seem to see that changing with CanPL so far.

They do a solid amount for the gate but I don't see that as part of the issue at hand (as those rich fans from overseas also have Raptors, Jays and Leafs tickets likely). The other thing is I haven't see or noticed them on any of the smaller temp stadiums which make me question if that's in the plan for teams in Halifax and Saskatoon. If that is the case and the teams do need to reach that 5k mark, then groups become more important for environment and guaranteeing a few hundred season tickets to sell.

57 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

One thing the three MLS markets have in abundance is rich soccer fans that were born overseas (Lino Saputo would be a prime example) and see using genuinely D1 level soccer with players like Drogba or Giovinco to entertain like-minded corporate clients as a natural thing to do.

As said I don't see this as being a soccer exclusive thing for non-Canadian born rich folks. Corporate types buy tickets to all teams they can.

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

...Edmonton, and even more so Halifax and Saskatoon, not so much so a future in the short to medium term revolving around the use of Ottawa Fury style youth soccer group sale discounts to paper the house for a low budget second tier league in quality terms is likely to beckon, because although the youth soccer registration boom of the last 20 years has increased recreational interest in the sport amongst the mainstream demographic that doesn't automatically translate to spectator interest.

I somewhat agree here but again I feel it all depends on how this league markets itself. If they have TV, a strong connections to local radio, coverage in all or most local papers and are supported actively by the local governments then along with things like a CCL spot then I could see them being reliant on the local youth programs as much.

[ChrisinOrleans]

On 12/24/2017 at 2:47 PM, matty said:

Yea but haven't random nova scotians invested millions digging up an island to get like 2milliom gbp?

Didn't Toronto vote for Rob Ford?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

2 hours ago, matty said:

...then along with things like a CCL spot then I could see them being reliant on the local youth programs as much.

Now the group stages have been eliminated it looks like there is only one spot per country if you are not Mexico and the United States, so it's probably only going to be the Voyageurs Cup holders unless/until there is another format change.  

[Ansem]

Lol! White Canadians don't like soccer enough for CPL to succeed? How does soccer ever goes over in Scandinavian nations who love hockey as much as we do.

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous 

[Macksam]

Thanks Mrs. C aka Nicky. This scarf will never leave my body.

[grande]

Bob Young says we'll have more news in, you guessed it, 60-90 days.

https://twitter.com/CaretakerBob/status/945870443759722496

[Rheo]

11 minutes ago, grande said:

Bob Young says we'll have more news in, you guessed it, 60-90 days.

https://twitter.com/CaretakerBob/status/945870443759722496

I like his confidence in the league, although I know some on here will be skeptical not naming any names

Tweet before in that thread that Forbes soccer writer was calling Young on what he thought was his delusions of there being success in the league to get a team in the 538 list and Young pointed out he's been called delusional on ventures with a lot longer yards then that.

Nice to see some official rumblings after all the silence and the accompanying bitching and complaining that came with said silence. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

3 hours ago, Ansem said:

Lol! White Canadians don't like soccer enough for CPL to succeed? How does soccer ever goes over in Scandinavian nations who love hockey as much as we do.

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous 

Are you on some kind of medication at the moment? I genuinely have no idea what you are on about and why, if it's in response to my posts.  My posts have been pointing out that gasp wait for it, Halifax and Saskatoon are different from Toronto and that means they are unlikely to sustain something comparable to TFC. That's not the same as saying pro soccer could never work there in any way, shape or form.

Think if there is anything mildly interesting about Bob Young's 538 tweet it's that it suggests he is still in rival to MLS mode to a certain extent at least where the Hamilton team is concerned, because Bobby McMahon's response was accurate in my opinion, if it's something FCE sort of level that is going to happen in all of the cities involved.

 

 

[Macksam]

Bobby McMahon = cuck

[Bison44]

Well things are different across the country in 2017 than they were in 2007 as well.  We have had 10 years of MLS soccer in Canada and alot of coverage on our sports channels.  We have hosted the Womens world cup.  Soccer has gone up a tick or two in the mainstream populations awareness.  Hipsters have latched on to soccers supporter culture (for good or bad?).  I dont think the smaller centers will be as reliant on soccer loving former immigrants, and I am not all that convinced that TFC's fan base is all that reliant on it either.   And the smaller centers wont have to try and replicate TFC (20000+), they only need a solid fanbase of maybe 4-6000 fans.  The more the merrier, but that seems to be a reasonable baseline number that the teams will need to attract. 

And i understand that some things are worse, the CPL will have to live in the shadow of MLS, and the biggest/best markets have already been poached by an america first league.  So cross your fingers, I would still like to see some sort of pro soccer league in the smaller centers (calling Calgary, Winnipeg, Edmonton, Quebec city small centers seems kind of silly though).  Maybe it will happen, in 60-90 days...maybe??? 

[matty]

6 hours ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

Didn't Toronto vote for Rob Ford?

Hey a lot of people like him cause it got rid of some useful taxes

[matty]

5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Now the group stages have been eliminated it looks like there is only one spot per country if you are not Mexico and the United States, so it's probably only going to be the Voyageurs Cup holders unless/until there is another format change.  

Just to clarify I'm including that new league as part of ccl

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Are you on some kind of medication at the moment? I genuinely have no idea what you are on about and why, if it's in response to my posts.  My posts have been pointing out that gasp wait for it, Halifax and Saskatoon are different from Toronto and that means they are unlikely to sustain something comparable to TFC. That's not the same as saying pro soccer could never work there in any way, shape or form.

Think if there is anything mildly interesting about Bob Young's 538 tweet it's that it suggests he is still in rival to MLS mode to a certain extent at least where the Hamilton team is concerned, because Bobby McMahon's response was accurate in my opinion, if it's something FCE sort of level that is going to happen in all of the cities involved.

 

 

I think people would be more sympathetic to your point if you hadn't previously claimed that expecting 4500-5500 fans is unrealistic outside of Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver. You're attacking a straw man by comparing that kind of project to "TFC level." Bob Young with an off the cuff optimistic comment about CPL doesn't validate that straw man either.

Your actual post was legitimate, that CPL wouldn't be able to rely on recent immigrants fans as much as TFC/IMFC/VWC...but I've yet to see any hard data actually demonstrating a real connection between recency of immigration and soccer fandom. That's as anecdotal as my experience of soccer being the #1 summer sport in rural Ontario. I suspect it''s quite dated anecdotal evidence as well.

As an aside, it is completely inappropriate to imply someone is mentally unwell when they disagree with you. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Complete Homer

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Are you on some kind of medication at the moment?

Does antibiotics counts?

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

My posts have been pointing out that gasp wait for it, Halifax and Saskatoon are different from Toronto and that means they are unlikely to sustain something comparable to TFC. That's not the same as saying pro soccer could never work there in any way, shape or form.

Duh. It's like me comparing Cleveland to New York. Yet both baseball and basketball thrives despite being on a way lower level than New York City.

Tell us something we don't know or new for a change.

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Think if there is anything mildly interesting about Bob Young's 538 tweet it's that it suggests he is still in rival to MLS mode to a certain extent at least where the Hamilton team is concerned, because Bobby McMahon's response was accurate in my opinion, if it's something FCE sort of level that is going to happen in all of the cities involved.

I haven't see the business model, neither have you. I suggest we wait to see the books instead of just posting the same old posts just reworded in different ways. At least when the business model is out, you'll have legitimate reasons to point out all the holes in it. Until then, you're just nagging man.

If Bob Young wants to spend his money to be COMPETITIVE, good for him. Why are you going in extremes? He obviously doesn't mean he wants to surpass TFC but being competitive (aka for being closer in terms of quality/spending) is totally realistic IF he intends to spend.

As for Halifax and Saskatoon, who knows. They could surprise us

[toontownman]

I am cautiously excited in the Saskatoon ownership. Although having a team here is as certain as the league itself at this point. The job the ownership have done with the Rush (Lacrosse) team here is phenomenal. They get marketing, they get the market and they know how to go all out to create not only a great product on the pitch but around and outside of it in the community. The sell out every game for Lacrosse. I can only imagine what they can do only need half that crowd to sell out a soccer team every week. Given how sport mad the province is i'd be shocked if the ownership would be thinking anything other than being just as competitive as every other market on and off the pitch.

[matty]

4 hours ago, toontownman said:

I am cautiously excited in the Saskatoon ownership. Although having a team here is as certain as the league itself at this point. The job the ownership have done with the Rush (Lacrosse) team here is phenomenal. They get marketing, they get the market and they know how to go all out to create not only a great product on the pitch but around and outside of it in the community. The sell out every game for Lacrosse. I can only imagine what they can do only need half that crowd to sell out a soccer team every week. Given how sport mad the province is i'd be shocked if the ownership would be thinking anything other than being just as competitive as every other market on and off the pitch.

The involvement of Lee Genier in the Saskatoon group is actually really exciting. You look at what the Rush did that first season (11,736 average at home) and it's hard not to think this guy knows what he's doing (I'm not saying he's an expert but he knows who to surround himself with). While we might not know what sort of cash he and Joe Belan are playing with it's hard not to think they have what's needed to make this team a hit.

Between them, the Ti-Cats, SEA and Bluebombers it's hard not to think those involved do not know what they're doing. While the TV element worries me a lot and didn't like the launch, these are well connected people and organisations who have strong links to local businesses, government and media. And having Paulie B and the former head of various Nike soccer projects in the Middle East doesn't hurt.

With the exception of maybe Winnipeg, who have been pretty quiet, all of these groups have been able to get strong media support in their markets from both print or local TV.

These are the main groups we know about, why can't they succeed?

Edited December 28, 2017 by matty

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

14 hours ago, Ansem said:

Duh. It's like me comparing Cleveland to New York...

A more sensible analogy would actually be with Erie, Pa in terms of market size. Cleveland has a metro area of 2 million and was close to getting an MLS team at one point.

[1996]

So even in Lacrosse we can’t sustsain our own Canadian only league? We have to play in an American League?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If playing in an American league is good enough for something as integral to Canadian national identity as hockey, there is no need to ever apologize for it where soccer is concerned. It's not obvious to me why the CSA didn't simply follow through on the Easton Report and stay out of D1 and D2 in sanctioning terms and focus instead on regional D3 with a U-23 development focus to build something comparable to the CHL. I suspect we would have more pro teams by now if they had, because the problems inherent with how to put 8 relatively high budget D2 sort of level teams together while having relatively few large 750k+ cities and the three biggest metro areas already taken by MLS have not gone away, which is why Erie, Pa rather than Cleveland sized markets enter the conversation. The Ticats don't have much longer to make this CanPL thing work in terms of a solid launch date before pressure will build to try another direction. Another year or so maybe.

[matty]

1 hour ago, 1996 said:

So even in Lacrosse we can’t sustsain our own Canadian only league? We have to play in an American League?

I'd say the NLL being in Canada is the result of a past era and different attitudes. Teams entered the NLL because it existed, didn't involve the work needed to set up a league and had safe guards in place for a very niche sport. The league clearly does very well in Canada (along with a pair of US markets) not because it's NLL, NLL is hardly a major name in sports and has a mixed media presence, but because there is solid marketing and an interest in the sport.

If there was a solid effort for a Canadan lacrosse league that was on a similar scale to NLL, it would likely have a better shot at bringing in the Canadian NLL teams (and killing the NLL) than the CPL would have of bringing in the Canadian MLS teams. 

The limited interest MLS interested has in expanding into Canada along with the developmental rep of USL and instability of NASL have resulted in a different attitude to that of the original NLL Canadian investors.

Edited December 28, 2017 by matty

[Rheo]

Really can't wait for some news just so there will be new dead horses to beat on  

[dyslexic nam]

26 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If playing in an American league is good enough for something as integral to Canadian national identity as hockey, there is no need to ever apologize for it where soccer is concerned. It's not obvious to me why the CSA didn't simply follow through on the Easton Report and stay out of D1 and D2 in sanctioning terms and focus instead on regional D3 with a U-23 development focus to build something comparable to the CHL. I suspect we would have more pro teams by now if they had, because the problems inherent with how to put 8 relatively high budget D2 sort of level teams together while having relatively few large 750k+ cities and the three biggest metro areas already taken by MLS have not gone away, which is why Erie, Pa rather than Cleveland sized markets enter the conversation. The Ticats don't have much longer to make this CanPL thing work in terms of a solid launch date before pressure will build to try another direction. Another year or so maybe.

The NHL is not an American league. The original 6 had 2 Canadian teams.  The oldest pro hockey club in the league is the Canadians, founded before every other original 6 member. And the biggest prize in hockey is Lord Stanley's Cup, named after a former Governor General of Canada.  Sure Bettman is trying to increase the American footprint, but the origin is important - we have been there from the start, we are better at it than the US, and its role in our national identity is why we will continue to succeed despite anything Bettman does.  

EDIT: and in actual fact, it was originally a Canadian hockey league.  Turns out, we let them in...

That is categorically different than the MLS, which is a US league, is sanctioned by the USSF, and only allowed Canadian teams in after an initial period of exclusivity.  The domestics rule is a great example of this in practice.

You can't simply gloss over the differences there.  

Edited December 28, 2017 by dyslexic nam

[matty]

29 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If playing in an American league is good enough for something as integral to Canadian national identity as hockey, there is no need to ever apologize for it where soccer is concerned. It's not obvious to me why the CSA didn't simply follow through on the Easton Report and stay out of D1 and D2 in sanctioning terms and focus instead on regional D3 with a U-23 development focus to build something comparable to the CHL. I suspect we would have more pro teams by now if they had, because the problems inherent with how to put 8 relatively high budget D2 sort of level teams together while having relatively few large 750k+ cities and the three biggest metro areas already taken by MLS have not gone away, which is why Erie, Pa rather than Cleveland sized markets enter the conversation. The Ticats don't have much longer to make this CanPL thing work in terms of a solid launch date before pressure will build to try another direction. Another year or so maybe.

I'd say the same reason why the USL didn't get into Hamilton: the power's that be didn't want that. In this case the powers that be are a Hamilton billionare and a pro football team out of Winnipeg (with several hundred million in assets) and who ever the fuck they hang with. If the guys with the money want to do it another way then the CSA really can't stop them unless they're plan is totally of different interests which it clearly is not. It's also fully possible a second report was done privately (paid for by said rich folks) that called bullshit on the Easton report.

I do agree the CPL needs to be on the field by 2019 to look legit.

Edited December 28, 2017 by matty