Maxime Crépeau

[Bison44]

Far be it to question UT, but St Louis signed a pretty good keeper (but aging) and done well afterwards, not everyone is happy with a journeyman.  I think it might be that MLS teams think they can develop their own keepers, whereas they spend the money on goal scorers/creators which they have a harder time producing.  In a cap league they have to maximize value for dollars spent.  

[Watchmen]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

MLS has no serious demand on keepers, and in fact rarely signs a premium keeper from abroad because any journeyman is fine. Maybe Mondragon was an exception, then the US national keepers who moved on, like Keller.

 

42 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

Far be it to question UT, but St Louis signed a pretty good keeper (but aging) and done well afterwards, not everyone is happy with a journeyman.  I think it might be that MLS teams think they can develop their own keepers, whereas they spend the money on goal scorers/creators which they have a harder time producing.  In a cap league they have to maximize value for dollars spent.  

It's funny, because if you have limited funds the keeper should actually be the most critical position to spend money on - a good one would limit errors and keep a team in more games.  But as you both note, MLS definitely shies away from spending too much on a keeper.  I think that mentality started to set in when Tim Howard was made a DP and it didn't work out well (if I recall correctly).  But even signing a TAM level keeper would probably boost a lot of teams.  It's not a coincidence that the Whitecaps best era came with Ousted in net in his prime, or that they jumped this year from 9th to 6th with maybe only a marginal increase to Takaoka.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Far be it to question UT, but St Louis signed a pretty good keeper (but aging) and done well afterwards, not everyone is happy with a journeyman.  I think it might be that MLS teams think they can develop their own keepers, whereas they spend the money on goal scorers/creators which they have a harder time producing.  In a cap league they have to maximize value for dollars spent.  

Burki is an excellent example of the contrary to what I am saying, and it has paid off for them. 

Which suggests maybe other teams in MLS should follow suit. It'd break a pattern, where the best keeper in MLS in the last decade is André Blake. The best.

[The Real Marc]

GKs don’t sell tickets in North America.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, The Real Marc said:

GKs don’t sell tickets in North America.

Funny, because in the old NASL we had not dumbed down this way. Sure, the most famous imports back then were scorers, but there were also defenders and even keepers brought in. Veterans, or then big prospects. Because everyone understood, back then, their importance, and fans admired players in every imaginable position on the pitch. 

So I got to watch Ruud Krol and Grobbelaar, one a veteran, the other a future star, at Whitecaps.

I think it's the NBA showtime mentality that has infected soccer in North America, to a large part. So we hear all the time from youth coaches how kids don't want to be defenders, and kids with all the physical attributes to play keeper don't want to. Slam dunks, goals, alleyoops.

The problem now in North America is that we don't have highly admired CBs leading teams. Where anywhere amongst the great clubs of Europe, and world national teams, the CBs are lions and kids hugely admire them. But as you say, clubs in MLS think that won't sell tickets, or that you can plug defensive holes with journeymen and spend hugely in attack. 

Result, it snowballs: the quality of attackers in MLS gets exaggerated since they are playing against CBs and keepers who are not from their same category or tier.

I admire Crepeau and think he's very good, his performances for Canada have been stellar. But his legend or stature or leadership role won't grow if he stays in MLS.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[CanadaFan123]

2 hours ago, The Real Marc said:

GKs don’t sell tickets in North America.

Or anywhere really. Most notable keepers play on big clubs so they’re certainly not selling tickets.

Maybe Buffon in Serie B is/was an exception. 

[The Real Marc]

49 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Funny, because in the old NASL we had not dumbed down this way. Sure, the most famous imports back then were scorers, but there were also defenders and even keepers brought in. Veterans, or then big prospects. Because everyone understood, back then, their importance, and fans admired players in every imaginable position on the pitch. 

My understanding has been that the NASL had to prove it wasn't a rinky-dink foreign practice league to attract its most famous imports. And that signing solid foreign players in many positions was a cornerstone of that appeal.

I'm not sure MLS has to do that to attract the highest-end DP-level talent from abroad. That speaks to both its perceived stature and improved pay, which is broadly better than many mid-range Euro leagues and the old NASL (save for the Pelés and Beckenbauers.)

And I'm not sure MLS cares to. Like you mentioned, with the modern highlight-reel nature of sports consumption they're happy to have Drogba or Shaqiri or Messi put up a couple of plays that make the YouTube clips, even if those opportunities would have been prevented by better players in a better league.

Edited October 23, 2023 by The Real Marc

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

3 hours ago, The Real Marc said:

GKs don’t sell tickets in North America.

The Chicago Fire had Jorge Campos at one point but it definitely didn't start a trend. Donovan Ricketts is the only reasonably well known import goalie I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[InglewoodJack]

I think that as attackers generally improve over time due to advancements in conditioning, tactics, skills, etc., and become generally more difficult to neutralize, the value of a great keeper vs. a replacement level one, save for the best in the world, diminishes more and more. Especially in MLS where roster deficiencies are built into the salary cap rules, no team is really going to miss out on success because the team is very good and the keeper just isn't great. I think we've seen tons of examples of career MLS keepers holding their own as their team hunts silverware; Crepeau in LA, Blake in Philly, even Callendar in Miami was plenty good enough to keep the team in contention. I even look at a team like CF Montreal who almost had 21 year old Sirois with no prior MLS experience almost get the team to the playoffs- I don't think this is a team that makes the playoffs even if we went and signed a good keeper from a top 5 league. Sure there are a few instances I can point to Sirois giving up goals and some points we could've held, but the defense was so pourous that great shots would've happened regardless, and the team still wouldn't have the offensive creativity to counter it.

I don't think it's a "GKs don't sell tickets" thing rather than it's a "GKs don't impact the game in ways that other players do" thing. Keepers in MLS seem to follow 3 distinct trends- MLS careerists, guys you hope to sell very young for a large profit (Petrovic, Turner, etc.), or older guys looking for a last gig (Burki).

I do generally think that of all positions, keepers is the one that MLS has shown they can develop a strong domestic pipeline to fill ranks and continuously pump talent- no clue if it's because our counterparts south of the border grew up playing catcher and us up north played goalie in the offseason, but the league is a long way away from guys like DSC or Crepeau or any of the top ~15-20 keepers in the league to be holding their teams back. I think a lot of these guys would already be in Europe if they had a different passport, but it's hard to break into a team where the position has one spot, and the same guy can play a vast majority of the games. Crepeau is the age that Laryea was when he tried England out- I think Crepeau certainly has that quality, but at his age, he can either go risk being the third stringer on some team in the Championship that plays in some random town, or he can be the starting keeper for a team in LA that competes for championships, has aspirations to win conference titles and is realistically a few good bounces away from playing in the club world cup. Hell, with the expansion of the CWC, there's a good chance that Crepeau and LAFC find themselves playing some very excellent teams from Europe before long.

[BearcatSA]

If you exclude Messi, eight of the nine highest wage players in this league played on nonplayoff teams this year, not to mention some of the highest payroll clubs crashing out.  I think that's a bigger issue in this league for proligate spending clubs than having boring but steady journeymen like Zac MacMath between the sticks.

 

[CanadaFan123]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The Chicago Fire had Jorge Campos at one point but it definitely didn't start a trend. Donovan Ricketts is the only reasonably well known import goalie I can think of off the top of my head.

 

Donovan Ricketts was not reasonably well known. He played 4th division in England and came to LA from the Jamaican league. That would be like saying Jayson Leutwiler is reasonably well known. 
 

Julio Cesar was the biggest name keeper to ever play in the league. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by CanadaFan123

[RS]

Carlo Cudicini was a reasonably big-name goalkeeper when he played for the Galaxy at 30 years old. Frank Rost was 28 when he played half a season for the Red Bulls.

Not exactly huge stars but both with a decent pedigree. There have been similar examples dotted throughout the existence of MLS but none that I can think of at the moment.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

18 minutes ago, CanadaFan123 said:

Donovan Ricketts was not reasonably well known. He played 4th division in England and came to LA from the Jamaican league...

Being Jamaica's goalkeeper counts for something in a CONCACAF context. The entire sport of soccer doesn't revolve around England.

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

The Chicago Fire had Jorge Campos at one point but it definitely didn't start a trend. Donovan Ricketts is the only reasonably well known import goalie I can think of off the top of my head.

 

Ricketts and Blake, both Golden Gloves in the league and both Jamaican. 

Probably Mondragón was the biggest import, and in his day the highest paid keeper in MLS, but he got injured that first season at Union and it ended.

The rumour mills about players in MLS, going on for decades, and it never even occurs to them to look at a distinguished veteran keeper. Like Claudio Bravo, stellar career, senior, playing for Betis in La Liga, playing European competition, just had an amazing performance this past weekend vs Getafe. Okay, he's 40. But 3-4 years ago when he left City?

But not even a guy like that, to hell with keepers, no one cares.

[narduch]

7 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Ricketts and Blake, both Golden Gloves in the league and both Jamaican. 

Probably Mondragón was the biggest import, and in his day the highest paid keeper in MLS, but he got injured that first season at Union and it ended.

The rumour mills about players in MLS, going on for decades, and it never even occurs to them to look at a distinguished veteran keeper. Like Claudio Bravo, stellar career, senior, playing for Betis in La Liga, playing European competition, just had an amazing performance this past weekend vs Getafe. Okay, he's 40. But 3-4 years ago when he left City?

But not even a guy like that, to hell with keepers, no one cares.

Guillermo Ochoa plays for Salernitana on Italy.

He would be perfect for MLS

Edited October 23, 2023 by narduch

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

Guillermo Ochoa plays for Salernitana on Italy.

He would be perfect for MLS

When Neuer gets past his injury and is able to play again, Bayern might have moved on--but as we are saying, MLS has no paradigm that includes these guys. 

This is why we Caps fans were once convinced that Ousted was a great keeper, when really he was very mediocre in all respects and had the sole virtue of stopping shots at close range that no defense should ever have allowed. But he was really a piece of crap, in the honourable sense of an Allsvenskan level keeper. I'm embarrassed to have been sucked into thinking he was at all good.

(Don't ask my opinion about Ter Stegen at Barça, because I'll be harsh on him too, not my style of keeper though I know why we have him. So maybe I'm not the best source of opinion because I'm hard to please when it comes to keepers).

Edited October 23, 2023 by Unnamed Trialist

[Watchmen]

41 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

When Neuer gets past his injury and is able to play again, Bayern might have moved on--but as we are saying, MLS has no paradigm that includes these guys. 

This is why we Caps fans were once convinced that Ousted was a great keeper, when really he was very mediocre in all respects and had the sole virtue of stopping shots at close range that no defense should ever have allowed. But he was really a piece of crap, in the honourable sense of an Allsvenskan level keeper. I'm embarrassed to have been sucked into thinking he was at all good.

(Don't ask my opinion about Ter Stegen at Barça, because I'll be harsh on him too, not my style of keeper though I know why we have him. So maybe I'm not the best source of opinion because I'm hard to please when it comes to keepers).

I think you're probably being too harsh on Ousted. I don't think anyone was calling for him to be called up to the Danish national team, only that he was very good by MLS standards. As you say he was stopping shots the defense shouldn't have been giving up. That's always been my bigger complaint from that era - that the defense was nowhere near as good as people thought, and as soon as Ousted's play did dip they were badly exposed.

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I think you're probably being too harsh on Ousted. I don't think anyone was calling for him to be called up to the Danish national team, only that he was very good by MLS standards. As you say he was stopping shots the defense shouldn't have been giving up. That's always been my bigger complaint from that era - that the defense was nowhere near as good as people thought, and as soon as Ousted's play did dip they were badly exposed.

I'm being harsh on Ousted, true. But the time the defence spent absorbing attacks backed into his face, he spent half his time in Vancouver up against Waston's butt. He had no distribution, was not part of the 11 on the field, the level was low. So glad we are past that, at least for now. 

Crepeau is far better than all that, all I am saying here, is that perhaps, to really understand what it means to perform under pressure, he needs a veritable pressure experience.

[Watchmen]

17 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I'm being harsh on Ousted, true. But the time the defence spent absorbing attacks backed into his face, he spent half his time in Vancouver up against Waston's butt. He had no distribution, was not part of the 11 on the field, the level was low. So glad we are past that, at least for now. 

Crepeau is far better than all that, all I am saying here, is that perhaps, to really understand what it means to perform under pressure, he needs a veritable pressure experience.

I agree that Crepeau is definitely the better keeper, and it's a shame he was in Vancouver during the clubs darkest days. But I agree - I wish (for a few reasons) that Crepeau had left for Europe, rather than LAFC. LAFC might be more ambitious than the Whitecaps, but it's still the same league. He should have moved on to challenge himself further.

[MtlMario]

Was the reason let out why Max asked for the trade from Vanc?

[Obinna]

22 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I agree that Crepeau is definitely the better keeper, and it's a shame he was in Vancouver during the clubs darkest days. But I agree - I wish (for a few reasons) that Crepeau had left for Europe, rather than LAFC. LAFC might be more ambitious than the Whitecaps, but it's still the same league. He should have moved on to challenge himself further.

Maybe part of the issue was that Whitecaps were terrible at that time. Look at Turner and Crepeau, same age but Turner was on a winning team. It helped he was American too, but I think moving from MLS as a keeper perhaps playing on a winning team goes a long way. Maybe that's even what Crepeau was thinking when he joined LAFC. 

[Watchmen]

6 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

Was the reason let out why Max asked for the trade from Vanc?

 

3 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Maybe part of the issue was that Whitecaps were terrible at that time. Look at Turner and Crepeau, same age but Turner was on a winning team. It helped he was American too, but I think moving from MLS as a keeper perhaps playing on a winning team goes a long way. Maybe that's even what Crepeau was thinking when he joined LAFC. 

The reason he gave at the time was "family reasons" but it's pretty well known at this stage that it was because the Whitecaps were so poor and he was unhappy with MDS being let go. LAFC came calling and he was happy to move there. I'm simply saying that rather than going to LAFC (and I believe signing an extension) that he'd look to move to Europe instead. Which is essentially what I think @Unnamed Trialist is also saying, that he should have gone to Europe for more of a challenge.

[GasPed]

46 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Maybe part of the issue was that Whitecaps were terrible at that time. Look at Turner and Crepeau, same age but Turner was on a winning team. It helped he was American too, but I think moving from MLS as a keeper perhaps playing on a winning team goes a long way. Maybe that's even what Crepeau was thinking when he joined LAFC. 

I actually think the main reason Turner moved while Max never even got a sniff is the tape measure. 

[costarg]

2 hours ago, GasPed said:

I actually think the main reason Turner moved while Max never even got a sniff is the tape measure. 

I was scrolling down the page to make the same comment.  Max is often listed at 5'11" or 6', but unless he grew a few inches after 23, I'm not sure he's even 5'10".  Teams seem to spend and gamble more on tall keepers with less skill than an excellent keeper that is shorter.  

[Shway]

2 hours ago, GasPed said:

I actually think the main reason Turner moved while Max never even got a sniff is the tape measure. 

Agreed. 

I think a lot of you have red leafy glasses on. There's really just not a lot of keepers under 6ft in Europe. 

He may play bigger than he is, but to the  scouts and analysts it's not good enough.