Jesse Marsch: CanMNT manager

[jonovision]

49 minutes ago, Obinna said:

Didn't help Bobby Smyrniotis, now did it?

He took things too far.

[Bigandy]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

It's easy to sail a ship in calm waters, it's when the storm hits you really find out what your captain is made of.

This simplistic logic to criticize MB is too much for me. 

Bradley is not the captain. Marsch is. 

For CMNT Bradley is at best, 3rd mate. assuming marsch, biello and another assistant is ahead of him

At TFC he was at best 4th mate assuming the leadership rankings above. 

None of this includes any consideration for the guys who put the crew together at TFC, Management could easily push Bradley down to a lowly crew member. 

Using your analogy, MB (during TFC dumpster fire years) was given a ship that doesnt sail straight, a weak captain, too many first mates but no second or third mates and then a bunch of rookie deck crew members. 

But fine, lets blame MB for all of this. He isn't 4th choice coaching material in a scenario listed above..... Do we ever forsee a replicable scenario for CMNT?  and if so, are you turning to MB to fix it? 

[Joe MacCarthy]

I'll say the same thing about Bradley as I did with Marsch except in the former case it's even worse.

Why are we building another country's resources?  Let's say Bradley gets hired and stays his two years, then what?  Does he go back into the Canadian system to help there and build others.  What would hiring him say to Canadian coaches on their way up that they can't even get hired as an assistant on their own national team.

What does he bring that a Canadian coach or ex player doesn't.  At least I can argue for Marsch, this I cannot.  Not bomb dropping optics but big enough for scrutiny.

This isn't about inferiority it's about succession planning.  AFAIC the Canadian inferiority complex died in Vancouver in 2010.

Plus I can't stand American rah rah shit and I'm not anti-American, I gave that up after high school.  Where's Pat Riggin when you need him?

Edited May 21 by Joe MacCarthy

[RS]

13 minutes ago, Fullback said:

That MLS transfers twitter is garbage and not reputable. All of this arguing is most likely to be completely irrelevant 

This cannot be said often enough.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, costarg said:

Captain Toxicity himself.  Ya, sure, that'll help.  He did a great job in helping manage morale and the dressing room at TFC.

I'm happy with Marsch as coach even though he's American.  However, my biggest concern was his USA bias.  He's shown it at the Impact as well as Leeds.  I hope it doesn't become a US gang at CANMNT, but it wouldn't surprise me.  If we see MacGraw playing an important part in the friendlies and Copa it will be very telling.

I would hate to think the "telling" story might be Lucas Pos or someone like that.

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, costarg said:

It's easy to sail a ship in calm waters, it's when the storm hits you really find out what your captain is made of.

From the Bluenose to the SS Edmund Fitzgerald. 

The latter was an American ship from Wisconsin, by the way.

[BrennanFan]

55 minutes ago, Fullback said:

That MLS transfers twitter is garbage and not reputable. All of this arguing is most likely to be completely irrelevant 

And here I thought irrelevant arguing was the point of this forum.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, Joe MacCarthy said:

I'll say the same thing about Bradley as I did with Marsch except in the former case it's even worse.

Why are we building another country's resources?  Let's say Bradley gets hired and stays his two years, then what?  Does he go back into the Canadian system to help there and build others.  What would hiring him say to Canadian coaches on their way up that they can't even get hired as an assistant on their own national team.

What does he bring that a Canadian coach or ex player doesn't.  At least I can argue for Marsch, this I cannot.  Not bomb dropping optics but big enough for scrutiny.

This isn't about inferiority it's about succession planning.  AFAIC the Canadian inferiority complex died in Vancouver in 2010.

Plus I can't stand American rah rah shit and I'm not anti-American, I gave that up after high school.  Where's Pat Riggin when you need him?

It's a two way street.

[BearcatSA]

31 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

From the Bluenose to the SS Edmund Fitzgerald. 

The latter was an American ship from Wisconsin, by the way.

Well played 🙂

[PopePouri]

2 hours ago, Sal333 said:

Shave your head and grow a beard. That should help.

That includes a significant amount of follicly-challenged dudes. I say that as one with a shaved head and a beard.

[Joe MacCarthy]

And now a brief musical interlude courtesy Stan Rogers

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

Well played 🙂

Now that I've looked at the lyrics again, well stunning:

The ship was the pride of the American side
Coming back from some mill in Wisconsin
As the big freighters go, it was bigger than most
With a crew and good captain well seasoned
Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms
When they left fully loaded for Cleveland
And later that night when the ship's bell rang
Could it be the north wind they'd been feelin'?

[kacbru]

40 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Now that I've looked at the lyrics again, well stunning:

The ship was the pride of the American side
Coming back from some mill in Wisconsin
As the big freighters go, it was bigger than most
With a crew and good captain well seasoned
Concluding some terms with a couple of steel firms
When they left fully loaded for Cleveland
And later that night when the ship's bell rang
Could it be the north wind they'd been feelin'?

Thank god we're not playing Copa in Cleveland.

[costarg]

8 hours ago, Bigandy said:

Using your analogy, MB (during TFC dumpster fire years) was given a ship that doesnt sail straight, a weak captain, too many first mates but no second or third mates and then a bunch of rookie deck crew members. 

But fine, lets blame MB for all of this. He isn't 4th choice coaching material in a scenario listed above..... Do we ever forsee a replicable scenario for CMNT?  and if so, are you turning to MB to fix it? 

Interesting take, and yet TFC's roster hasn't changed much and look at them now.  That isn't all on Bob or the cafeteria staff, MB was captain and needed to play a part in controlling the locker room and media drama, that's a lack of leadership. 

Being part of coaching staff, regardless of which rung, is still part of the leadership and a bad fit can pollute a team.  Marsch was a good choice with good solid experience in different leagues.  Probably the best we could have done.  MB doesn't offer anything that stands out.  There are tonnes of experienced players who've competed at high levels that can fit that role, some with coaching experience, some Canadian and almost all of them with better judgement than to get involved in a toxic father/son-coach/captain situation.

As for where he ranks in CANMNT staff, this is all hypothetical and assumptions since he isn't even part of it (yet).   

[costarg]

10 hours ago, El Diego said:

No credit for charting a sensible path, eh? I try to make my TFC biases clear when I comment, I hope other people are able to be mindful of their biases when they post -- be it against TFC, the USA, etc. (to be clear, I am not saying you have a bias in this case, this is more a general statement)

I am at a loss regarding your comment.  You mention bias twice and finish off with "I am not saying you have a bias".  Not sure what you are trying to say?

Just to be clear, there is no bias in my statement.  I didn't write anything that wasn't already said and written in the media.  Those same thoughts and opinions are shared all over Reddit and boards everywhere.  It has nothing to do with who I support or don't. 

Pretty sure most here know I'm CANMNT first, followed by the 3 Canadian MLS teams (yes, it is possible).  I just don't have time to follow CPL as well.  I live in Montreal and I'll *usually* watch CFM matches over TFC and VWC if they're all on at the same time, but not all the time.  I support them all and also don't shy away from criticizing the 3 when something stands out.

[gigi riva]

9 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

And here I thought irrelevant arguing was the point of this forum.

Actually irrelevant whining  seems to be the point of this forum 

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

8 hours ago, costarg said:

...Marsch was a good choice with good solid experience in different leagues.  Probably the best we could have done.  MB doesn't offer anything that stands out...

Jesse Marsch should be allowed to have a few people around him during FIFA windows who he is comfortable working with and trusts for what are not necessarily even going to be full-time gigs. The youth level national teams are what can always be used for developing Canadian coaches and I suspect is where Mauro Biello will fit into the equation if he is still going to be around.

[Bigandy]

18 hours ago, costarg said:

Interesting take, and yet TFC's roster hasn't changed much and look at them now.  That isn't all on Bob or the cafeteria staff, MB was captain and needed to play a part in controlling the locker room and media drama, that's a lack of leadership. 

Being part of coaching staff, regardless of which rung, is still part of the leadership and a bad fit can pollute a team.  Marsch was a good choice with good solid experience in different leagues.  Probably the best we could have done.  MB doesn't offer anything that stands out.  There are tonnes of experienced players who've competed at high levels that can fit that role, some with coaching experience, some Canadian and almost all of them with better judgement than to get involved in a toxic father/son-coach/captain situation.

As for where he ranks in CANMNT staff, this is all hypothetical and assumptions since he isn't even part of it (yet).   

I disagree. 
IN: Longstaff spicer, long, flores
Out: Akinola, Vazquez, sapong, MB 

Some major changes in minutes. Now add in the fact that your youngsters like JMR are another year ahead. And guys like ibarra and prince have had time to acclimatize to the team better etc. Now you have some major roster changes even if you just have 8ish "names" changing. 

Like you always say, 2022 vitoria isnt 2024 vitoria. Same thing for JMR 2023 vs 2024. 

Based on your logic, theres a lack of leadership in TFC evidenced by the drama. MB is partly to blame. - I agree. 
However, the italians, the entire coaching staff, all the support staff building the roster, and any "leadership" role players all deserve to take blame too.

Everyone takes some blame. I get it. But you are not having any proportionality in your argument. It feels like you say "forget all the good of MB. He is solely to blame for TFC last year. He is soooo responsible that he wouldnt be a guy who we could trust to be a 3rd or 4th assistant." 

As for other candidates based solely on being CM's at or above MB in concacaf:

JDG - with NY
Hutch - with besiktas

Marquez - no idea where hes at but doubtful he would be available
palacios - same as marquez
Jermaine jones - is he any different to MB

I firmly believe there are better options than MB, but I don't think there are many realistic options with the experience or quality of MB in midfield in concacaf..... not saying thats the criteria we need, but its foolish to discount him because "he didnt solve all of TFC's problems"

 

[El Diego]

21 hours ago, costarg said:

I am at a loss regarding your comment.  You mention bias twice and finish off with "I am not saying you have a bias".  Not sure what you are trying to say?

Just to be clear, there is no bias in my statement.  I didn't write anything that wasn't already said and written in the media.  Those same thoughts and opinions are shared all over Reddit and boards everywhere.  It has nothing to do with who I support or don't. 

Pretty sure most here know I'm CANMNT first, followed by the 3 Canadian MLS teams (yes, it is possible).  I just don't have time to follow CPL as well.  I live in Montreal and I'll *usually* watch CFM matches over TFC and VWC if they're all on at the same time, but not all the time.  I support them all and also don't shy away from criticizing the 3 when something stands out.

There have been a number of comments against Bradley, aside from yourself, from people who are not TFC and not US fans. I had no specific reason to suspect bias from you so I made that clear, but I do suspect it generally from this board. So what I meant is exactly what I said -- if you have an opinion against Bradley (or anyone, could be an opposition player/team/manager or a Canadian player/team/manager) consider where that opinion is coming from. The reason this discussion is what prompted me to bring this up is because outside of Canadian non-TFC fans, Bradley is considered a great leader.

ETA: Tbf, there is a vocal group of what I consider stupid US supporters who, after their loss to T&T, think Bradley is a bad leader

[costarg]

3 hours ago, Bigandy said:

I disagree. 
IN: Longstaff spicer, long, flores
Out: Akinola, Vazquez, sapong, MB 

Some major changes in minutes. Now add in the fact that your youngsters like JMR are another year ahead. And guys like ibarra and prince have had time to acclimatize to the team better etc. Now you have some major roster changes even if you just have 8ish "names" changing. 

Like you always say, 2022 vitoria isnt 2024 vitoria. Same thing for JMR 2023 vs 2024. 

Based on your logic, theres a lack of leadership in TFC evidenced by the drama. MB is partly to blame. - I agree. 
However, the italians, the entire coaching staff, all the support staff building the roster, and any "leadership" role players all deserve to take blame too.

Everyone takes some blame. I get it. But you are not having any proportionality in your argument. It feels like you say "forget all the good of MB. He is solely to blame for TFC last year. He is soooo responsible that he wouldnt be a guy who we could trust to be a 3rd or 4th assistant." 

As for other candidates based solely on being CM's at or above MB in concacaf:

JDG - with NY
Hutch - with besiktas

Marquez - no idea where hes at but doubtful he would be available
palacios - same as marquez
Jermaine jones - is he any different to MB

I firmly believe there are better options than MB, but I don't think there are many realistic options with the experience or quality of MB in midfield in concacaf..... not saying thats the criteria we need, but its foolish to discount him because "he didnt solve all of TFC's problems"

 

We're not talking about what Bradley accomplished in 2017.  We're talking about what he can bring to CANMNT on the coaching staff.  This isn't about his midfield prowess, that doesn't mean a thing here.  What he will/needs to be measured by is his character, knowledge and management skills.  The rest doesn't matter.

What we know:

- Couldn't help a toxic dressing room, players didn't trust him, players airing out dirty laundry to media, infighting.  These are all things a captain should lead or at the very least help a lot with.  If players aren't listening and confiding in you, you are part of the problem.

- Shows bad judgement - coach/captain situation and not knowing or understanding when to walk away.  Puts himself ahead of others.  This is exactly what you don't want in your coaching and leadership.

- Unable to read the room or have any kind of outside perspective.

The Italians are fitting in just fine now that the Bradley show is gone.  They weren't managed properly, that much is evident.  MB was part of all this, he had a role that could and should have fixed this. He doesn't get carte blanche.  IF Marsch goes ahead with this, it's for the wrong reasons.

[Obinna]

21 minutes ago, costarg said:

What we know:

- Couldn't help a toxic dressing room, players didn't trust him, players airing out dirty laundry to media, infighting.  These are all things a captain should lead or at the very least help a lot with.  If players aren't listening and confiding in you, you are part of the problem.

This would be a valid point if he wasn't the son of the coach.

21 minutes ago, costarg said:

- Shows bad judgement - coach/captain situation and not knowing or understanding when to walk away.  Puts himself ahead of others.  This is exactly what you don't want in your coaching and leadership.

So, because he didn't step down as captain while his dad was coach, he can no longer be considered a good leader, or more importantly a valuable asset to the coaching staff?

21 minutes ago, costarg said:

The Italians are fitting in just fine now that the Bradley show is gone.  They weren't managed properly, that much is evident.  MB was part of all this, he had a role that could and should have fixed this. 

MB's crime was that he was the son of the coach, something he obviously could not control.

He obviously didn't become a poor leader after years of being recognized as a great leader. If he wasn't a good leader, he would have been exposed far sooner than the twilight of his career. 

Moreover, Marsch is the leader of this group, not his assistants. We have no idea of how Marsch would use him (or any assistant), so why are we so focused on his leadership (or lack thereof in your view)?

21 minutes ago, costarg said:

He doesn't get carte blanche.  IF Marsch goes ahead with this, it's for the wrong reasons.

Maybe not from you, but for most people he absolutely will and rightly so in my opinoin. MB was never part of the coaching staff at TFC, but even if you insist he unofficially was, why not assume he learned from his so-called failures as TFC Captain?

It's the same point I made about Marsch - you can look at his time at Leeds (and Liepzig) as a failure or a learning. Smart people will do the latter. I believe Marsch is a smart man and I believe MB is too, so why not give him the benefit of the doubt? Honestly now..

Edited May 23 by Obinna

[kacbru]

5 minutes ago, Obinna said:

 

25 minutes ago, costarg said:

- Shows bad judgement - coach/captain situation and not knowing or understanding when to walk away.  Puts himself ahead of others.  This is exactly what you don't want in your coaching and leadership.

So, because he didn't step down as captain while his dad was coach, he can no longer be considered a good leader, or more importantly a valuable asset to the coaching staff?

No - last season, MB made the players around him worse, particularly after he came back from injury.  Yet he still played nearly all the minutes.  I understand there can be a fine line between competitiveness and selfishness, but MB did not inspire confidence that he knew where the line was.  He was either unable to recognize what was best for the team, or he ignored it.  Selfish = Poor leadership.

[Obinna]

36 minutes ago, kacbru said:

No - last season, MB made the players around him worse, particularly after he came back from injury.  Yet he still played nearly all the minutes.  I understand there can be a fine line between competitiveness and selfishness, but MB did not inspire confidence that he knew where the line was.  He was either unable to recognize what was best for the team, or he ignored it.  Selfish = Poor leadership.

And how exactly would that extrapolate to being ineffective as an assistant coach on Marsch's staff? 

It's not MB's fault the coach decided to give him all the minutes. What was he supposed to do, tell the coach "no I don't deserve to play"? I am all for blaming Bob Bradley for giving Michael Bradley so many minutes, but how is that Michael's fault.  

[kacbru]

28 minutes ago, Obinna said:

And how exactly would that extrapolate to being ineffective as an assistant coach on Marsch's staff? 

It's not MB's fault the coach decided to give him all the minutes. What was he supposed to do, tell the coach "no I don't deserve to play"? I am all for blaming Bob Bradley for giving Michael Bradley so many minutes, but how is that Michael's fault.  

Yes, if he was such a good team leader, he would have said no, I can't do 90 minutes.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Bradly had his father covering his butt in his final playing years, goes as his dad's assistant to Norway where they relegate (after just promoting the year before, pretty hard to be that bad), then we are supposed to think that now, he's getting an assistant job with Marsch. They are still holding his hand and changing his diapers.

Sorry, no: time to get out on your own Michael, enough of being swaddled from job you don't merit to job you don't merit.