CPL new teams speculation

[Ansem]

16 minutes ago, Kingston said:

Out of curiosity, why Regina instead of Saskatoon?

They have an existing venue and I have faith that if the Roughriders were to be involved, they could do better than Valour and grow from there. Saskatoon might be a League 1 Prairies city for a while unless someone is willing to propose a new venue

 

18 minutes ago, Kingston said:

A question for the league in all expansion is how big they can actually be.  "As big as possible" I'm sure is the answer but the farther down the list of possible sites you go, the more likely you are to have questionable teams.  We already have eight teams.  Would it be so bad if we added Quebec City and Edmonton and then stopped at ten?  (With a couple of possible markets still open in case, say, York needs to become KW?)  Just prioritizing stability over size?

I think Mark Noonan is already providing that pragmatism of finding the right balance between growth and expansion. He did pull the plug on Edmonton and found owners for York which must have come with the promise to move the club to a new venue. I also think that it's a Noonan move to flip the board on MediaPro to solve the league's biggest issue - it's isolation.

However, expansion is still very much alive and the hiring of a VP of infrastructure means that they won't be jumping the gun like under Clanachan unless there's a solid business case for a club.

Long story short - you can do both, we're still at 8 when we were supposed to be at 14 by now which is a good sign. As a business, it's his job to bring the league to its full potential and lay the roadmap to achieve that. The ultimate prize in my opinion is having CFL-level business-wise and in terms of relevance in this country. That can't be possible with holes across the country - CPL needs the prairies, southern Ontario, Quebec and convert that demand into recurring paying customers while making sure to not drop the ball on channeling the extra interest into the sport that the World Cup will bring.

I'm very confident in Noonan thus far based on his decisions compared to Clanachan

[BigBadBorto]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

A good strategy for expansion (no particular order)

• Regina
• Kitchener-Waterloo
• London
• Windsor
• Quebec City
• Return to Edmonton
• Moncton
• Kelowna

As for the big 3 cities, I'd say :

• give Vancouver FC 3 more years to see where they are - it's too soon to gauge them. Betting on the valley could prove being the right decision long term
• Toronto : The current state of York United will never fly in this city, Woodbine + rebrand is the bare minimum that needs to happen. It can be both very niche and successful at the same time - it`s all about how owners approach this if they get the above.
• Montreal : Quebec City needs to happen first and be a resounding success on all level. Quebec being different enough than the rest, if CPL works in the capital, eyeballs and media from Montreal Island will pay attention. As a former Montrealer, there's plenty of casuals to go around on the island if the location, venue and state of the league is right. A Quebec City rivalry is just bonus on top of it, so I'd resist Laval - leave that island to the 2 PLSQ clubs already there.

I agree with most of your cities on the list.

- But I would pick Saskatoon over Regina.  Slightly bigger population plus Regina already has the Roughriders so I think Saskatoon might be the better choice (but I defer to people living in the province..)

-I would probably pick London ahead of KW or WIndsor since it's a bit further from Toronto (than KW) and also it's a fuller city IMO than Kitchener and Waterloo - which is really 2 cities close to each other.  Also it's much bigger than Windsor

-Quebec City....100%! my top choice overall

-Return to Edmonton.  100% agree when stadium and ownership is right

-Moncton..  I'm on the fence..  I would love a regional rivalry to Halifax and they do support their QMJHL team really well, however it may be too small.  Just 172k in metro.  On the other hand they are growing fast and also have 3 fairly major cities within 2 hour drive - Fredericton, Saint John and Charlottetown.  Finally their current stadium is a good size but located at the University and not walkable from downtown and not close to any nice bar/restaurant area

-Kelowna.  I'm on the fence here and don't know much about the city.  I think it could work though.  Maybe an option to relocate from Vancouver if that doesn't work out

 

Step 1 I think is get to 10 teams..  Quebec City and London.  

Step 2 is go for 12 teams Add Saskatoon and Edmonton.  

Someone in there, Vancouver or York may need to relocate if they can't turn it around

Edited February 8 by BigBadBorto

[Bison44]

4 hours ago, Ansem said:

In retrospect, the league tried to apply a single formula to all its market and that didn't them a great start as the response wasn't consistent across the board. I think there's an awareness of this now and each location must be approached with a customized approach fit to that location.

I think you are looking way to deep into this.  The formula was prob, OWNER+ CASH + minimum stadium= CPL TEAM.   I dont remember them turning down deep pocketed owners in cities with decent stadiums.  The fact that we have such a variety of stadiums and locations etc would indicate there was no real formula on potential teams.  It was more like they took serious deep pocketed owners on faith they were going to sort of a workable stadium (Cavalry, Y9, Halifax, Pacific), whether it was a pop up downtown on public land, the show jumping complex, a rugby field or university campus.  And its not by accident the first 2 CPL teams announced already had state of the art, modern, already built stadiums ready to go.  

As far as expansion plans go, they basically have to do the same thing, vet the owners, have a stadium plan ready to go, and that will prob be enough.  If Saskatoon had gone different with their stadium options they would prob be starting next year.  Same thing if anyone in Quebec had their ducks in a row.  CPL/beggars cant be choosers eh? 

Edited February 8 by Bison44

[Watchmen]

I think the one thing with new ownerships is that they don't really seem to have convinced Canadian businessman. VFC was a current owner buying an additional team (in the market he actually wanted to be in), while Ottawa and the York takeover were international owners.

[Metro]

19 hours ago, Cheeta said:

Haven't seen this brought up anywhere but it's been in my head for a while.

Our Mexican investors in York would have know all about the league's troubles with Mediapro.  Along with a whole lot of other things the league would have had to provide during discussions/disclosure.  And still, they bought in.  They weren't scared off.

I find that both interesting and encouraging. 

As do I.

[Nello]

Scarborough seems to have one of the strongest identities in all of the golden horseshoe,  Maybe it's already been discussed here, but if York moved to Scarborough instead of Woodbine they would get the big city locale and some proud locals

[BearcatSA]

17 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I think the one thing with new ownerships is that they don't really seem to have convinced Canadian businessman. VFC was a current owner buying an additional team (in the market he actually wanted to be in), while Ottawa and the York takeover were international owners.

I thought that the Atletico Ottawa template might lead to another bigger-club-from-abroad branding ownership possibility in the league. 

 

[Cicero]

21 hours ago, BigBadBorto said:

I agree with most of your cities on the list.

- But I would pick Saskatoon over Regina.  Slightly bigger population plus Regina already has the Roughriders so I think Saskatoon might be the better choice (but I defer to people living in the province..)

-I would probably pick London ahead of KW or WIndsor since it's a bit further from Toronto (than KW) and also it's a fuller city IMO than Kitchener and Waterloo - which is really 2 cities close to each other.  Also it's much bigger than Windsor

-Quebec City....100%! my top choice overall

-Return to Edmonton.  100% agree when stadium and ownership is right

-Moncton..  I'm on the fence..  I would love a regional rivalry to Halifax and they do support their QMJHL team really well, however it may be too small.  Just 172k in metro.  On the other hand they are growing fast and also have 3 fairly major cities within 2 hour drive - Fredericton, Saint John and Charlottetown.  Finally their current stadium is a good size but located at the University and not walkable from downtown and not close to any nice bar/restaurant area

-Kelowna.  I'm on the fence here and don't know much about the city.  I think it could work though.  Maybe an option to relocate from Vancouver if that doesn't work out

Add Regina, move Pacific to Saskatoon and Vancouver to Edmonton and the five prairie teams could have their own division travelling around a Trans Canada Highway bus loop...perfect. In all seriousness, there is some logic to focusing more on the prairies rather than marginal markets in B.C. if you want an East/West structure. 

[Watchmen]

19 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I thought that the Atletico Ottawa template might lead to another bigger-club-from-abroad branding ownership possibility in the league. 

And it might. There were the rumours of a Bundesliga club kicking the tires on an expansion team in Vancouver, before VFC was announced. But that would still be more international ownership.

[Cicero]

3 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

And it might. There were the rumours of a Bundesliga club kicking the tires on an expansion team in Vancouver, before VFC was announced. But that would still be more international ownership.

I suspect any foreign team would want an Ontario based team to have access to the most potential players.   

[BearcatSA]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

And it might. There were the rumours of a Bundesliga club kicking the tires on an expansion team in Vancouver, before VFC was announced. But that would still be more international ownership.

I remember that and I have not read anything since (unless someone has link from a reputable source), especially in light of how the Ottawa franchise has done.

[Watchmen]

9 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

I remember that and I have not read anything since (unless someone has link from a reputable source), especially in light of how the Ottawa franchise has done.

I think that interest faded after VFC was announced. No clue if it's because one side didn't want a partnership of the Bundesliga club just decided they weren't interested.

I recall a rumour of a French league 1 side also being interested in a Quebec based team, but don't recall the details.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I think that interest faded after VFC was announced. No clue if it's because one side didn't want a partnership of the Bundesliga club just decided they weren't interested.

I recall a rumour of a French league 1 side also being interested in a Quebec based team, but don't recall the details.

Picking up on this, the team I believe was rumoured to be Werder Bremen.

I think some assumed this was a contact that Friend had or was working, given he played his most elite years in the Bundesliga. So I am not sure we can say VFC happened and the possible connection died out, because they both would have gone through Friend. They were not parallel but intertwined realities, as I understood it.

For me, it would make sense for a Bundesliga team to buy into a project underway, even sharing in costs, risks and possible benefits. But the question for me is what team would think it makes sense to go to the Lower Mainland. I don't see the logic from the foreign club's perspective; for me, Atlético Ottawa reflects an existing pattern for the mother club. What other clubs are in similar situations, building a network of satellite projects to bolster their international image?

[Watchmen]

1 minute ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Picking up on this, the team I believe was rumoured to be Werder Bremen.

I think some assumed this was a contact that Friend had or was working, given he played his most elite years in the Bundesliga. So I am not sure we can say VFC happened and the possible connection died out, because they both would have gone through Friend. They were not parallel but intertwined realities, as I understood it.

For me, it would make sense for a Bundesliga team to buy into a project underway, even sharing in costs, risks and possible benefits. But the question for me is what team would think it makes sense to go to the Lower Mainland. I don't see the logic from the foreign club's perspective; for me, Atlético Ottawa reflects an existing pattern for the mother club. What other clubs are in similar situations, building a network of satellite projects to bolster their international image?

Werder Bremen was one of the clubs I heard as well, and you're right the connection to Friend exists. This is why I mentioned that maybe either they decided they weren't interested (for whatever reason) or possibly Bremen/Friend couldn't work out a partnership agreement.

The other team that was rumoured was Bayern Munich. That seemed to be centered around the success of Davies  but also their possibly looking to emulate Athletico/Ottawa, City group, Red Bull, etc.

It is worth keeping in mind that Friends group had an option for the Vancouver area, so any interested parties would have had to deal with them. They've gone it alone, and that's not me judging any parties, simply stating what happened.

[BearcatSA]

47 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

What other clubs are in similar situations, building a network of satellite projects to bolster their international image?

The owners of the Manchester City brand?

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

The owners of the Manchester City brand?

Right, City Group has Girona, Troyes, NYCFC, a team in Uruguay, Melbourne City. Often with varying arrangements, not always full or even majority.

City Group does benefit from player movement, they are not trying to raise the Man City brand as much as move players, they made money on Taty Castellanos, for example.

I personally believe that for brand identity, it would be better to come in and sponsor something than have a team. What has Atlético Ottawa done for At Madrid's brand in Canada, it must be a negligible impact (though considering what it was before, it may be significantly more than what they had).

[BearcatSA]

2 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I personally believe that for brand identity, it would be better to come in and sponsor something than have a team.

What's better for a major soccer club to sponsor than another lower level soccer team and it's entire operation, especially its developmental path?

 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

6 minutes ago, BearcatSA said:

What's better for a major soccer club to sponsor than another lower level soccer team and it's entire operation, especially its developmental path?

My theory is that in the given market, you are the rival of other teams. And their fanbases. So NYCFC, they are disliked by the vast majority of MLS rivals. Or at best, the feeling is neutral towards them. By taking a team, you create enmity within your context, potentially. 

So that is not good for marketing, except in the market where you are with your followers. And for people on the outside looking in. 

Then, you may find a league does not even wear the same shirt brand, NYCFC is Adidas as is all the league, Man City has gone to Pumas. You can't even carry the marketing over. Atlético de Madrid is Nike now and CPL is all Macron.

By sponsoring some aspect of another league, you are creating a positive synergy throughout that entire market. When CPL began I thought a club like Barça (before we were aware of our financial mess) could sponsor a development league, the academy structure; or why not, the entire league. The CPL by FCB. Whatever you think of the club, in all markets of CPL you'd be aware of a single football brand supporting the entire endeavour.

Of course that sounds like benevolence, putting money into something as a pure sponsor; it seems to renounce the player development question, but fact is: the CPL is not high enough a level to think about moving players up, it is not even high enough to send a player from At Ottawa to At San Luis in Mexico. The only teams who could benefit from having a development line to CPL, say a team in Scandinavia, or Austria, a relatively modest team, would in turn not have the money to do so. 

[Copes]

I think by the time the league is approaching 14 teams there should be enough stability (and hopefully money) to talk about how to make St. John's, NL work. 

Honestly, I think St. John's has all of the things that make Halifax great... it's just on a damn island. If you ignore the travel issues, I really think it ticks a lot of boxes. 

1) Unique Identity

2) Historic stadium walking distance to downtown

3) Passionate local fan base with no other professional sport option. 

Population also comes up as an issue but St. John's CMA is about 230,000 and the Avalon Penninsula is almost 300,000. The local AHL and ECHL hockey teams have regularly pulled 3,000 - 5,000 per game... I remember one year the AHL team lead the league. Newfoundlanders typically come out for their teams. 

Soccer is pretty big on the island as well. I honestly would bet that St. John's would find itself in the top half of league average attendance based on 2023 numbers. 

It's just the damn island and travel. I don't know how to overcome that without some sort of airline sponsorship.

[Unnamed Trialist]

11 minutes ago, Copes said:

I think by the time the league is approaching 14 teams there should be enough stability (and hopefully money) to talk about how to make St. John's, NL work. 

Honestly, I think St. John's has all of the things that make Halifax great... it's just on a damn island. If you ignore the travel issues, I really think it ticks a lot of boxes. 

1) Unique Identity

2) Historic stadium walking distance to downtown

3) Passionate local fan base with no other professional sport option. 

Population also comes up as an issue but St. John's CMA is about 230,000 and the Avalon Penninsula is almost 300,000. The local AHL and ECHL hockey teams have regularly pulled 3,000 - 5,000 per game... I remember one year the AHL team lead the league. Newfoundlanders typically come out for their teams. 

Soccer is pretty big on the island as well. I honestly would bet that St. John's would find itself in the top half of league average attendance based on 2023 numbers. 

It's just the damn island and travel. I don't know how to overcome that without some sort of airline sponsorship.

Every team in CPL that cannot drive to play an away game is effectively on "an island". It is the same, they are obliged to always fly. That is Cavalry, Valour and HFX. So I don't see it as being that different. 

[Copes]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Every team in CPL that cannot drive to play an away game is effectively on "an island". It is the same, they are obliged to always fly. That is Cavalry, Valour and HFX. So I don't see it as being that different. 

Fair point. I think the issue with NL sports teams is the flight availability and cost more than anything else. Flying from Halifax to Toronto is pretty much the same cost (if not cheaper), as Halifax to St. John's. It just ends up really increasing the travel cost for teams flying in as well as a local team flying out.

Edited February 10 by Copes

[narduch]

The ECHL (the famous bus league that often gets cited) currently has a Newfoundland team.

Although who knows how long that will last.

They have been playing since 2018-19

[BearcatSA]

8 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

By sponsoring some aspect of another league, you are creating a positive synergy throughout that entire market. When CPL began I thought a club like Barça (before we were aware of our financial mess) could sponsor a development league, the academy structure; or why not, the entire league. The CPL by FCB. Whatever you think of the club, in all markets of CPL you'd be aware of a single football brand supporting the entire endeavour.

I just wonder where any of these been done outside the big club's home country base?  And if not, why not?  And if so, why not here?  I sense that part of the answer lies with geography.

Everything for me comes back to that Kevin O'Leary favourite enquiry on Dragon's Den:  "...but how do I make money out of this?"

[Unnamed Trialist]

5 hours ago, BearcatSA said:

I just wonder where any of these been done outside the big club's home country base?  And if not, why not?  And if so, why not here?  I sense that part of the answer lies with geography.

Everything for me comes back to that Kevin O'Leary favourite enquiry on Dragon's Den:  "...but how do I make money out of this?"

All sponsorship is an investment to create revenue. It is not direct, but it works, if it didn't it would not be done. And clubs are brands which have a full range of merchandising material available and which leverages the prestige and image of the club, from shirts to casual wear to colognes. So why don't clubs sponsor things that would 1-not be outrageously expensive and 2-would significantly raise their brand image?

Instead, though, of seeing football clubs sponsoring in ways to build their brands, they prefer to create a licensing scheme for soccer schools, which are accredited but usually far from the level of the home club, they use the club name to draw in kids, they often do not compete properly with other local clubs. So this source of income, which is minor, is the favourite.

Do they advance their brand by doing this? Not very much. Running these clubs, because they are paying fees and want to make money, often do not have their own facilities, means charging far above the local options. so they are already expensive, the profit margins are limited. 

Now as I say, I have no idea of Atlético de madrid sell more shirts in Canada because of Atlético Ottawa. They certainly must have higher brand recognition. But it also must be totally concentrated amongst Ottawa fans. If a club were to be the sponsor, say to the tune of a million, of CPL, of CPL academies, their crests, their name present, that would be a presence across the league. 

 

[BearcatSA]

19 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Instead, though, of seeing football clubs sponsoring in ways to build their brands, they prefer to create a licensing scheme for soccer schools, which are accredited but usually far from the level of the home club, they use the club name to draw in kids, they often do not compete properly with other local clubs. So this source of income, which is minor, is the favourite.

Which is kind of like what the Caps are doing with their cross Canada training centres.

I am curious to see if new ownership possbilities in this league are going to feature substantial foreign investment involved.