CPL new teams speculation

[SpursFlu]

3 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Probably true. The only Lions fans I know in Vancouver are guys older than me, white, many from prairie stock. And absolutely uninterested in soccer.

I wonder if the presence of VFC, and also the basketball team in Langley, could be jumping off points for something more ambitious in Surrey. 

I think your football fan stereotype is a bit dated and racist. It's 2024 guy

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

I think your football fan stereotype is a bit dated and racist. It's 2024 guy

My friends are not a stereotypes, they're real people.

You're the one that apparently is uncomfortable about the question about demographics. And clearly haven't been to a Lions game recently because, of course, they play in what you regularly describe, not stereotyping of course, as the pernicious whore of Babylon that's Vancouver. 

[SpursFlu]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

My friends are not a stereotypes, they're real people.

You're the one that apparently is uncomfortable about the question about demographics. And clearly haven't been to a Lions game recently because, of course, they play in what you regularly describe, not stereotyping of course, as the pernicious whore of Babylon that's Vancouver. 

First the CFL is football. 70% of the people in Vancouver "city" are not born in Canada so they know football and not the CFL because the CFL has not been exported out of Canada like the NFL has neen exported. The CFL has to sell to these people not run away because these people actually like football. 

2nd what does the color of people's skin have to do with anything? I was at Rugby 7s on Saturday and you would think the whole city is "white" as you put it. Are Irish, Australia, SAfricans not white? Are Mexicans, Brazilians, Ukranians, Persians not "white"? 

Seems like you're projecting. Apparently you're buddies with the 5 people in Vancouver from the Prairies. So you played the "some of my best friends are white" card? The only out of touch old "white" person around here is you and you're5 buddies i guess. You think you're lame, hate yourself and the micro category you put yourself and now you go around projecting your self hatred onto everyone else. Get with the times 

Edited February 27 by SpursFlu

[Mihairokov]

15 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Didn't Lions attendance pick up considerably last season? I thought there were games they opened the upper bowl.

 

Some of this was helped by a big concert prior to their season opener.

Edited February 27 by Mihairokov

[Unnamed Trialist]

46 minutes ago, Mihairokov said:

Some of this was helped by a big concert prior to their season opener.

Didn't know that. They also had a good season, and there was a bit of a post-Covid rebound.

I get the sense that this year, the Canucks doing well, and creating buzz, will help the other teams get people downtown too. 

[Mihairokov]

25 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I get the sense that this year, the Canucks doing well, and creating buzz, will help the other teams get people downtown too. 

It depends on how you want to look at sports markets and people's entertainment budgets. It's possible that what you're saying is correct, but it's also possible that the Canucks being good soaks up more attention and spending dollars that other teams may or may not see. This isn't scientific at all, just tossing ideas around. For a market like Winnipeg I don't think it's a coincidence that the Bombers took a bit of a hit when the Jets returned, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the Jets have taken a hit from a good Bombers team. I'm not convinced the market is big enough for both of them maxing out their ticket revenues.

Vancouver's a much different market from Winnipeg, but I think a common trend in CFL is that teams would probably draw better if they are more suburban. I'm sure the Lions would draw better in Surrey as much as i'm sure that the Argonauts would draw better in Etobicoke or Mississauga or London.

[Unnamed Trialist]

19 minutes ago, Mihairokov said:

It depends on how you want to look at sports markets and people's entertainment budgets. It's possible that what you're saying is correct, but it's also possible that the Canucks being good soaks up more attention and spending dollars that other teams may or may not see. This isn't scientific at all, just tossing ideas around. For a market like Winnipeg I don't think it's a coincidence that the Bombers took a bit of a hit when the Jets returned, and I don't think it's a coincidence that the Jets have taken a hit from a good Bombers team. I'm not convinced the market is big enough for both of them maxing out their ticket revenues.

Vancouver's a much different market from Winnipeg, but I think a common trend in CFL is that teams would probably draw better if they are more suburban. I'm sure the Lions would draw better in Surrey as much as i'm sure that the Argonauts would draw better in Etobicoke or Mississauga or London.

Well basically, since you can't get tickets for the Canucks, mostly, you are on the outside looking in. And CFL and MLS are cheaper. 

As for the demographic, I think folks underestimate that people do spend a day downtown if coming from further away. I remember when people came over on the fast ferry from Nanaimo to Vancouver harbour to see the Lions, bedecked or however you say that and never more appropriate the nautical pun.

When I am in Van I am literally walking distance to BC Place so I am totally spoiled. 

[BearcatSA]

14 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

As for the demographic, I think folks underestimate that people do spend a day downtown if coming from further away. 

Totally agree.  That is a big lure for me on the occasions that I go to a Caps game.  Bomb in on the Skytrain from wherever I am staying, looky-loo the sites, enjoy the vibe of the downtown.

 

[Watchmen]

17 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

As for the demographic, I think folks underestimate that people do spend a day downtown if coming from further away. I remember when people came over on the fast ferry from Nanaimo to Vancouver harbour to see the Lions, bedecked or however you say that and never more appropriate the nautical pun.

I haven't looked in to it, but the new Hullo ferry service (Nanaimo to Vancouver) has talked about doing "special event runs", and has previously mentioned concerts and the Lions. Possible for the Whitecaps as well. Even with no special run, there's a few 430 kick off times this year that would make that a much more practical day trip still.

Edit: Looked into it, and the Miami game is listed as having a special ferry run. Sailing schedule only goes to May right now.

Edited February 28 by Watchmen

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 minutes ago, Watchmen said:

I haven't looked in to it, but the new Hullo ferry service (Nanaimo to Vancouver) has talked about doing "special event runs", and has previously mentioned concerts and the Lions. Possible for the Whitney as well. Even with no special run, some there's a few 430 kick off times this year that would make that a much more practical day trip still.

Edit: Looked into it, and the Miami game is listed as having a special ferry run. Sailing schedule only goes to May right now.

Miami game, but from Nanaimo, to the inner harbour?

Nanaimo and area demographics are funny, as is a lot of Vancouver Island.

[Watchmen]

1 minute ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Miami game, but from Nanaimo, to the inner harbour?

Nanaimo and area demographics are funny, as is a lot of Vancouver Island.

I don't know where Hullo docks in Nanaimo. But in Vancouver, it comes in at the convention center harbor.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

On 2/26/2024 at 10:13 PM, Mihairokov said:

...London is probably where the Argonauts should end up if they ever get punted out of Toronto. They'd probably do better there these days.

Think that's probably true, but it isn't necessarily a high bar and at the other end of the scale I'm not 100% convinced 20,000+ would happen consistently either. People in London were watching American TV as far back as the 1950s, so interest in the NFL runs very deep. I can't think of anyone I've ever met who could sensibly be described as a CFL fan but the NFL is a completely different story.

The problem where London ever getting a CFL team is concerned is that both the Argos and Ticats could veto it because London is inside their 200 km exclusive territorial rights areas. Hence why London and Kitchener never rate a mention in that regard, and it is cities quite distant from any existing franchise like Halifax and Quebec City that get mentioned instead.

If Mediapro were being promised 16 clubs by 2024, it maybe would have been different in a CanPL context, but given Mediapro now appear to be exiting, who knows what the future holds at this point...

Edit: Did some googling, and people on CFL Reddit seem to believe that territorial rights are an issue for Quebec City as well where the Alouettes are concerned. Guess that's why Halifax was being pushed to be the tenth franchise.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CFL/comments/dorcs2/outside_of_quebec_city_being_heavily_into_laval/

 

Edited February 28 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[Aird25]

19 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Miami game, but from Nanaimo, to the inner harbour?

Nanaimo and area demographics are funny, as is a lot of Vancouver Island.

What's funny about Nanaimo and the island's demographics? 

[Unnamed Trialist]

39 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

What's funny about Nanaimo and the island's demographics? 

I can see a trick question in there somewhere...

[Cicero]

On 2/27/2024 at 7:20 PM, Mihairokov said:

...Etobicoke or Mississauga...

I think you're going the wrong direction. I think Pickering to Oshawa and surrounding rural municipalities is really more the Argo's demographic. Mississauga doesn't support anything and Peel in general is not full of the CFL-type fan, and then if you go much further west, you get into Ticats territory.

Durham Region now has 700,000 people, almost as many as Winnipeg and Hamilton/Burlington.

Edited February 29 by Cicero

[Aird25]

45 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I can see a trick question in there somewhere...

Just looking for clarification on your comment...

[Cicero]

57 minutes ago, Aird25 said:

Just looking for clarification on your comment...

Not sure what his thrust was either...is being old 'funny'?

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, Cicero said:

Not sure what his thrust was either...is being old 'funny'?

Nanaimo could be a good Canadian football town, has been and could still be. 

In Nanaimo, for example, over 85% of the population is of European origin. In the City of Vancouver it is under 50%. Facts are facts: Vancouver Island has less ethnic and cultural diversity than the Lower Mainland.

Nanaimo, also, was a city with a strong working class identity, with the history of mines and logging. It can still show voting tendencies to the left and even non-traditional, and not just tokenistic, as with Green voters. Nanaimo now has a changing demographic due to foreign students at VIU, for example, and what were and maybe still are competitive housing prices; but also with some of the movement to retire on Vancouver Island from the prairies also going to the city of Nanaimo itself and not just the Comox Valley or the Gulf islands. Nanaimo is not an ageing city, not compared to Vancouver (with far more over 65 than under 24), so age may not be the key factor.

I realise there are a lot people who don't have clear consciences, which somehow makes it hard for them to deal with sociological statistics and how they play out when it comes to spectators, live and on tv, sport by sport, country by country. Describing a demographic is not racist or biased, if you care about the sport, you care about the demographic, and of course would be very interested in renewing and expanding and rebranding.

I don't know the CFL demographic exactly, but in BC it tends to be a bit older and from European stock. If you have never been to a Lions game, argue with me about this, I'm have fairly recently, so I am good. Most other sports in Canada have spectators, live and on tv, from a broader cultural, ethnic and age spectrum than the CFL. Some, like curling, have a similar to narrower spectrum. Some sports in Canada are faster at attracting new demographics, like hockey (part of assimilating Canadian identity as well), and soccer as well, and the Blue Jays and the Raptors, than the CFL.

Many assume that Surrey is a better market for CFL, but there are arguments against that. One is age, if you think it attracts and older crowd. In Nanaimo about 25% of the population is over 65 and 25% is under 25. In Vancouver, it is 27-20, an older population. In Surrey, 31% are under 25 and only 15% are over 65, in fact if you include the over 55s you are still below the under 24 figure. If younger generations will be drawn more easily to soccer than Canadian football, as Canadian stats seem to reflect, then Surrey would be a good soccer market.

I have a close friend who teaches sociology at VIU, a Vancouverite who lives in Victoria, and I'll check with him later to see how wrong I am about all this.

Edited February 29 by Unnamed Trialist

[SpursFlu]

30 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Nanaimo could be a good Canadian football town, has been and could still be. 

In Nanaimo, for example, over 85% of the population is of European origin. In the City of Vancouver it is under 50%. Facts are facts: Vancouver Island has less ethnic and cultural diversity than the Lower Mainland.

Nanaimo, also, was a city with a strong working class identity, with the history of mines and logging. It can still show voting tendencies to the left and even non-traditional, and not just tokenistic, as with Green voters. Nanaimo now has a changing demographic due to foreign students at VIU, for example, and what were and maybe still are competitive housing prices; but also with some of the movement to retire on Vancouver Island from the prairies also going to the city of Nanaimo itself and not just the Comox Valley or the Gulf islands. Nanaimo is not an ageing city, not compared to Vancouver (with far more over 65 than under 24), so age may not be the key factor.

I realise there are a lot people who don't have clear consciences, which somehow makes it hard for them to deal with sociological statistics and how they play out when it comes to spectators, live and on tv, sport by sport, country by country. Describing a demographic is not racist or biased, if you care about the sport, you care about the demographic, and of course would be very interested in renewing and expanding and rebranding.

I don't know the CFL demographic exactly, but in BC it tends to be a bit older and from European stock. If you have never been to a Lions game, argue with me about this, I'm have fairly recently, so I am good. Most other sports in Canada have spectators, live and on tv, from a broader cultural, ethnic and age spectrum than the CFL. Some, like curling, have a similar to narrower spectrum. Some sports in Canada are faster at attracting new demographics, like hockey (part of assimilating Canadian identity as well), and soccer as well, and the Blue Jays and the Raptors, than the CFL.

Many assume that Surrey is a better market for CFL, but there are arguments against that. One is age, if you think it attracts and older crowd. In Nanaimo about 25% of the population is over 65 and 25% is under 25. In Vancouver, it is 27-20, an older population. In Surrey, 31% are under 25 and only 15% are over 65, in fact if you include the over 55s you are still below the under 24 figure. If younger generations will be drawn more easily to soccer than Canadian football, as Canadian stats seem to reflect, then Surrey would be a good soccer market.

I have a close friend who teaches sociology at VIU, a Vancouverite who lives in Victoria, and I'll check with him later to see how wrong I am about all this.

What a way to live

[Cicero]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I realise there are a lot people who don't have clear consciences, which somehow makes it hard for them to deal with sociological statistics and how they play out when it comes to spectators, live and on tv, sport by sport, country by country. Describing a demographic is not racist or biased, if you care about the sport, you care about the demographic, and of course would be very interested in renewing and expanding and rebranding.

Well, my conscience is pretty clear. I have no problem talking about it. What you're describing: one population being pushed out of areas they have lived traditionally and their (sporting) culture and traditions being supplanted by a new population...hmmm, what does that sound like? I'd call it...colonisation!! Had to rip the lid off that can...

But it's true, the Island might have better demographics for CFL. Not sure they have much of a Canadian Football tradition at the high school level though. UVIC doesn't even have a team. The Island has always been off on its own for a lot of things. In my family, the prairie folks were much more connected to the CFL, but the urban demographics of prairies are also changing, so the connection seems to be fading there as well.

Edited February 29 by Cicero

[Aird25]

2 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Nanaimo could be a good Canadian football town, has been and could still be. 

In Nanaimo, for example, over 85% of the population is of European origin. In the City of Vancouver it is under 50%. Facts are facts: Vancouver Island has less ethnic and cultural diversity than the Lower Mainland.

Nanaimo, also, was a city with a strong working class identity, with the history of mines and logging. It can still show voting tendencies to the left and even non-traditional, and not just tokenistic, as with Green voters. Nanaimo now has a changing demographic due to foreign students at VIU, for example, and what were and maybe still are competitive housing prices; but also with some of the movement to retire on Vancouver Island from the prairies also going to the city of Nanaimo itself and not just the Comox Valley or the Gulf islands. Nanaimo is not an ageing city, not compared to Vancouver (with far more over 65 than under 24), so age may not be the key factor.

I realise there are a lot people who don't have clear consciences, which somehow makes it hard for them to deal with sociological statistics and how they play out when it comes to spectators, live and on tv, sport by sport, country by country. Describing a demographic is not racist or biased, if you care about the sport, you care about the demographic, and of course would be very interested in renewing and expanding and rebranding.

I don't know the CFL demographic exactly, but in BC it tends to be a bit older and from European stock. If you have never been to a Lions game, argue with me about this, I'm have fairly recently, so I am good. Most other sports in Canada have spectators, live and on tv, from a broader cultural, ethnic and age spectrum than the CFL. Some, like curling, have a similar to narrower spectrum. Some sports in Canada are faster at attracting new demographics, like hockey (part of assimilating Canadian identity as well), and soccer as well, and the Blue Jays and the Raptors, than the CFL.

Many assume that Surrey is a better market for CFL, but there are arguments against that. One is age, if you think it attracts and older crowd. In Nanaimo about 25% of the population is over 65 and 25% is under 25. In Vancouver, it is 27-20, an older population. In Surrey, 31% are under 25 and only 15% are over 65, in fact if you include the over 55s you are still below the under 24 figure. If younger generations will be drawn more easily to soccer than Canadian football, as Canadian stats seem to reflect, then Surrey would be a good soccer market.

I have a close friend who teaches sociology at VIU, a Vancouverite who lives in Victoria, and I'll check with him later to see how wrong I am about all this.

Cheers, so by funny you just mean different than Vancouver? In my experience NFL is a lot more popular than CFL on the island, but football in general, at my predominantly white working class high school, was less popular to play than hockey, soccer, basketball, rugby and lacrosse. The only people I knew that followed CFL closely moved to the island from Saskatchewan

[SpursFlu]

People seem to be ignoring reality here.

https://3downnation.com/2023/10/30/cfl-attendance-up-three-percent-in-2023-as-argos-and-lions-soar-stamps-and-redblacks-sink/

CFL sells football. Football has never been more popular in Vancouver. I have a hard time getting my buddies to talk about any other sport but football. Football has also never been more popular internationally. So people come here and they already love and know the sport. Why would you run from these people? I took a new Canadian to a CFL game last year. He was a die hard Eagles fan. Since he moved to Canada he's gone to the states twice to watch them play. He loved the Lions game. He just had no idea. Why would the CFL do a bunch of dumb things just to accommodate a bunch of stereotypes circa 1997. 

I know people have feelings about cfl/cpl stadiums but honestly the best thing those 2 leagues could do is to get on the same page. Both leacould be at 16 teams within 5 years if they work together 

Edited February 29 by SpursFlu

[phil03]

7 hours ago, SpursFlu said:

People seem to be ignoring reality here.

https://3downnation.com/2023/10/30/cfl-attendance-up-three-percent-in-2023-as-argos-and-lions-soar-stamps-and-redblacks-sink/

CFL sells football. Football has never been more popular in Vancouver. I have a hard time getting my buddies to talk about any other sport but football. Football has also never been more popular internationally. So people come here and they already love and know the sport. Why would you run from these people? I took a new Canadian to a CFL game last year. He was a die hard Eagles fan. Since he moved to Canada he's gone to the states twice to watch them play. He loved the Lions game. He just had no idea. Why would the CFL do a bunch of dumb things just to accommodate a bunch of stereotypes circa 1997. 

I know people have feelings about cfl/cpl stadiums but honestly the best thing those 2 leagues could do is to get on the same page. Both leacould be at 16 teams within 5 years if they work together 

While everything you said is technically true, I would respectfully say it lacks context.

The NFL has invested a truly staggering amount of money to popularise American Football abroad in the last two decades or so, if for no other reason then the fact they are doing so well in the US already that if they dont grow internationally pretty exponantially the only direction is down. More recently they also had their eyes on the LA Olympic Games (touch football is in but no guarantee it will remain when the games will move away from the US). If anything I'd argue they have underachieved considered the amount of money at play and there is certainly no guarantee what results they did get can be maintained without the money tap still being open.

Similarly, the last two years have seen the two biggest cities in Canada, who are also the two least popular franchises of the CFL, win the Grey Cup. The Alouettes have also been taken out of life support for the life being thanks to being purchased by Peladeau (it might wound up a short lived reprieve if he only bought them to get on TVA sports considering that network's financial issues but that's another kettle of fish), if some audience growth hadn't happened in those circumstances it would have been humongous alarm bells IMO...

More broadly, I do think it is telling that a) the rumoured expansions never get anywhere concrete and b) there always seem to be at least one of their teams out of nine that is in crisis...

To come back to our Football, I'd say the best strategy for the CPL is to not have overall approach in its relationship with the CFL. Instead they should take things on a case by case basis. If it make sense for the local teams of both leagues to work together in a given city then they should. If Canadian Soccer's and the CFL's interests diverge in another city then the CPL and its local club should act accordingly.

They are just another league in a different sport. Simple as that.

Edited March 1 by phil03

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, phil03 said:

While everything you said is technically true, I would respectfully say it lacks context.

The NFL has invested a truly staggering amount of money to popularise American Football abroad in the last two decades or so, if for no other reason then the fact they are doing so well in the US already that if they dont grow internationally pretty exponantially the only direction is down. More recently they also had their eyes on the LA Olympic Games (touch football is in but no guarantee it will remain when the games will move away from the US). If anything I'd argue they have underachieved considered the amount of money at play and there is certainly no guarantee what results they did get can be maintained without the money tap still being open.

Similarly, the last two years have seen the two biggest cities in Canada, who are also the two least popular franchises of the CFL, win the Grey Cup. The Alouettes have also been taken out of life support for the life being thanks to being purchased by Peladeau (it might wound up a short lived reprieve if he only bought them to get on TVA sports considering that network's financial issues but that's another kettle of fish), if some audience growth hadn't happened in those circumstances it would have been humongous alarm bells IMO...

More broadly, I do think it is telling that a) the rumoured expansions never get anywhere concrete and b) there always seem to be at least one of their teams out of nine that is in crisis...

To come back to our Football, I'd say the best strategy for the CPL is to not have overall approach in its relationship with the CFL. Instead they should take things on a case by case basis. If it make sense for the local teams of both leagues to work together in a given city then they should. If Canadian Soccer's and the CFL's interests diverge in another city then the CPL and its local club should act accordingly.

They are just another league in a different sport. Simple as that.

What do you think about compatible field size? NFL fields are smaller and if you've seen NFL in a soccer stadium, it looks dwarfed. I think some US fields will have to be expanded for the World Cup, losing seating.

Not so much with CFL, which for me fits better. Saying this as I believe there could be better compatibility when it comes to stadiums, as half of the CFL proves. 

[SpursFlu]

3 hours ago, phil03 said:

While everything you said is technically true, I would respectfully say it lacks context.

The NFL has invested a truly staggering amount of money to popularise American Football abroad in the last two decades or so, if for no other reason then the fact they are doing so well in the US already that if they dont grow internationally pretty exponantially the only direction is down. More recently they also had their eyes on the LA Olympic Games (touch football is in but no guarantee it will remain when the games will move away from the US). If anything I'd argue they have underachieved considered the amount of money at play and there is certainly no guarantee what results they did get can be maintained without the money tap still being open.

Similarly, the last two years have seen the two biggest cities in Canada, who are also the two least popular franchises of the CFL, win the Grey Cup. The Alouettes have also been taken out of life support for the life being thanks to being purchased by Peladeau (it might wound up a short lived reprieve if he only bought them to get on TVA sports considering that network's financial issues but that's another kettle of fish), if some audience growth hadn't happened in those circumstances it would have been humongous alarm bells IMO...

More broadly, I do think it is telling that a) the rumoured expansions never get anywhere concrete and b) there always seem to be at least one of their teams out of nine that is in crisis...

To come back to our Football, I'd say the best strategy for the CPL is to not have overall approach in its relationship with the CFL. Instead they should take things on a case by case basis. If it make sense for the local teams of both leagues to work together in a given city then they should. If Canadian Soccer's and the CFL's interests diverge in another city then the CPL and its local club should act accordingly.

They are just another league in a different sport. Simple as that.

I'm not saying there needs to be a formal agreement. I'm just saying you got Moncton, Quebec, Kitchener, London, Kelowna whatever. If you have people interested in CFL and CPL in those markets but they need to build. Why not bring people together and make it work for everyone 

Edited March 1 by SpursFlu