CPL new teams speculation

[Unnamed Trialist]

CPL has a travel sponsor.

Divisions are boring, regardless of the cost consideration. A single table is a luxury and we should be happy to have it.

We have a league with a balanced schedule, home and away, it's amazing. 

Then we have playoffs that reflect that single table, semis 1 against 4, 2 against 3 (my preference, if we have to have playoffs, is for semis to be home and away, that way if you make the playoffs you get a home game).

MLS, or NBA, or MLB, NHL or NFL--none of them care that maybe the two best teams that deserve to play the World Series or the Superbowl were in the same division. It alters the integrity of the sport entirely. I mean, why the hell shouldn't it happen, if they are playing for the "world championship" why shouldn't the two best teams make the final? There's a reason a lot of NHL final series are quite mediocre.

Our regular CPL season is balanced, unlike the MLS season, a league that spends the final months of the season just playing regionally to sort out Conference playoffs. Compare that to other leagues where they get towards the end and then do a mini-league amongst the top 6-8 teams, Belgium, Mexico, there are many places where they do the precise opposite: the best go against the best. I don't like it but at least they are intensifying the competition towards the end amongst the top teams. They are peaking, as you advance you get better. Not in MLS, they hop on their Greyhound buses and go regional.

MLS is a league with all kinds of joke scenarios because of divisional conveniences. You can win a Supporter's Shield in MLS and celebrate it with an unbalanced schedule, it is truly laughable. And the fact that no West team can face an East team until the final, setting up this childish set-up where you are just replicating the old AL - NL scenario in baseball. That is the only reason they have it, the only reason they believe it is acceptable, it goes back to World Series mentality from before the current merger scenario. 

[Bison44]

2 hours ago, Aird25 said:

If he is, he’s been doing it for years. Perhaps the most committed piss taker of all time. 

Well there are different ways of approaching problems.  Most of us love soccer, support soccer and hope for more and better options in Canada for fans and players.  Shermanator, Mrs C (prob way more that I cant think off right now) work hard with supporters groups.  We'd all like to see "our" league grow, fill the stands and have an ever improving product on the field.  Some see the problems the league has and would like to downsize to regional bus leagues or attach ourselves to an MLS reserve league, probably because thats what they advocated 6-7 years ago when the CPL was in the planning phases and they just wont let it go.  

I'm still optimistic that we'll get some good news about Saskatoon and a potential Quebec team before this season is out.  

[narduch]

With the league now getting 2 Champions League spots I do hope they continue with a single table with the regular season winner getting 1 CL spot.

But it will be interesting to see what they do as the number of teams increases.

Currently they play 28 games in an 8 team league. Which works out to exactly 4 matches against each team.

28 games is probably the right amount considering the weather in Canada.

But next year there will be 9 teams. Will they move to 32 game regular season?

I may not be in favour of it but when the league reaches 12 teams I could see them going to 2 6-team conferences.

[Unnamed Trialist]

39 minutes ago, narduch said:

With the league now getting 2 Champions League spots I do hope they continue with a single table with the regular season winner getting 1 CL spot.

But it will be interesting to see what they do as the number of teams increases.

Currently they play 28 games in an 8 team league. Which works out to exactly 4 matches against each team.

28 games is probably the right amount considering the weather in Canada.

But next year there will be 9 teams. Will they move to 32 game regular season?

I may not be in favour of it but when the league reaches 12 teams I could see them going to 2 6-team conferences.

I agree it is a tough call. 

Yes, we could start the season a week earlier and end a bit later, and get in those 32 matches.

It forces midweek matches to be more prevalent, thus reducing the quality of what is offered to fans, reducing gate, but it is doable. If they keep the playoffs to single matches, if the Voyageurs Cup stays at single matches. 

But go to 10 teams, if you play everyone 3 times, with the unbalanced part being who gets to be at home and who away for that 3rd match, that is a 27 game season. Other sports keep close track and they rotate who is home and who away (Davis Cup tennis used to do this). One season at 10 Pacific plays HFX that third match at home, the next Pacific travels to Halifax for the third match. In two seasons you balance out what a single season skews.

Jump to 12 teams. A 22 match season, so only 11 home games instead of the current 14, less gate for teams. Not ideal. Convince the CSA to accept home and away for the Voyageurs Cup and that ensures one more home match at least. Making playoffs longer only benefits those qualifying, making the rich richer and leaving the weaker sides with a thin base on which to build revenue (12 home games in total in a scenario where the league is bigger and stronger). Not ideal. 

I think we'll end up with Conferences and Divisions at that point, but not soley because of travel costs (which with more teams are reduced per road trip, as you'll have closer rivals across the country).

[Kingston]

1 hour ago, narduch said:

But it will be interesting to see what they do as the number of teams increases.

Currently they play 28 games in an 8 team league. Which works out to exactly 4 matches against each team.

28 games is probably the right amount considering the weather in Canada.

But next year there will be 9 teams. Will they move to 32 game regular season?

Ultimately I think they will do what all other North American leagues do - pick some fixed number of games and then figure out how to jig the schedule to get to that number depending on how many teams there are.

[Kent]

12 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

...or accept MLS affiliates into membership. Suspect he'd be singing a different tune at that point. Conferences and a move to junior hockey style bus travel would be a big step towards making the league more financially sustainable.

Here is the MLS affiliates league you are looking for.
https://www.mlsnextpro.com/

Here is the regional junior style bus travel leagues you are looking for.
https://www.league1ontario.com/
https://plsq.ca/
https://www.bcsoccer.net/League1BC

For the pro Canadian soccer league, go here.
https://canpl.ca/

[ted]

14 hours ago, Stanley said:

Why even call them "conferences".  Call them "divisions".  

Because in soccer/football "division" refers to the different levels of leagues. The CanPL is a Division One, (D1, First Division) as defined by FIFA.

[Watchmen]

8 hours ago, narduch said:

Like hasn`t the ship sailed on MLS reserve side with the advent of Next Pro? Or is he advocating for the MLS teams to put their 3rd level side in CPL?

I think what he means is, if the CPL does bring in MLS reserve teams at some point, then the "who are we to tell multimillionaires how to spend their money?" comes back to haunt you. The comment lends itself to a sort of "never criticize the league" attitude.

[RS]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

I think what he means is, if the CPL does bring in MLS reserve teams at some point, then the "who are we to tell multimillionaires how to spend their money?" comes back to haunt you. The comment lends itself to a sort of "never criticize the league" attitude.

I thought it was obvious, but I guess not.

[narduch]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

I think what he means is, if the CPL does bring in MLS reserve teams at some point, then the "who are we to tell multimillionaires how to spend their money?" comes back to haunt you. The comment lends itself to a sort of "never criticize the league" attitude.

I think you are doing your own editorializing here.

We know what he means when he says the league should add reserve sides.

Most of us disagree with that stance.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, Watchmen said:

I think what he means is, if the CPL does bring in MLS reserve teams at some point, then the "who are we to tell multimillionaires how to spend their money?" comes back to haunt you. The comment lends itself to a sort of "never criticize the league" attitude.

I'm echoing what they've been saying all along, they don't want it and don't see that it add value nor help their plan long term.

42 minutes ago, RS said:

I thought it was obvious, but I guess not.

US D2/D3 has such a winning track record in this country. Of course I'm going to criticize the league to come to the same conclusion. How stupid of me

 

[Kent]

2 hours ago, Watchmen said:

I think what he means is, if the CPL does bring in MLS reserve teams at some point, then the "who are we to tell multimillionaires how to spend their money?" comes back to haunt you. The comment lends itself to a sort of "never criticize the league" attitude.

This is actually how I interpreted Ozzie's comment as well. He was warning Ansem (after you had warned him as well) about the millionaire's comment meaning there is no room to criticize the league.

But I then decided to respond to it with helpful links when he then made it clear he is still advocating for those ideas with his next couple comments.

[Ozzie_the_parrot]

In a similar vein it's noteworthy that Ansem stopped harping on about posts being off-topic which was another ploy being used to try to shut down discussion by people he disagreed with along with the whole millionaires should be left in peace to do what they want with their money where Canada's pro league structure is concerned angle.

What also still appears to be missed by at least some posters on here is that my top consideration in what the league should do revolves only around a belief/hope that emotionally unpalatable steps should/will be taken if that ensures that the league is still around ten or twenty years from now not because I actually prefer regional bus travel formats to national air travel ones in fundamental ideological terms or leagues with MLS affiliates to leagues without them for that matter.

Winding things back to the thread's topic I suspect expansion is going to proceed at a snail's pace unless a number of changes happen, if what is rumoured to be the requirements on stadia and $12 million expansion fees is accurate. That makes the stability and survival of the league vulnerable to a change of heart by a very limited number of people if a highly unsustainable business model is involved. That scenario usually doesn't end up with they all lived happily ever after in the context of pro soccer in North America...

Edited August 19, 2022 by Ozzie_the_parrot

[P-O]

17 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

I agree it is a tough call. 

Yes, we could start the season a week earlier and end a bit later, and get in those 32 matches.

It forces midweek matches to be more prevalent, thus reducing the quality of what is offered to fans, reducing gate, but it is doable. If they keep the playoffs to single matches, if the Voyageurs Cup stays at single matches. 

But go to 10 teams, if you play everyone 3 times, with the unbalanced part being who gets to be at home and who away for that 3rd match, that is a 27 game season. Other sports keep close track and they rotate who is home and who away (Davis Cup tennis used to do this). One season at 10 Pacific plays HFX that third match at home, the next Pacific travels to Halifax for the third match. In two seasons you balance out what a single season skews.

Jump to 12 teams. A 22 match season, so only 11 home games instead of the current 14, less gate for teams. Not ideal. Convince the CSA to accept home and away for the Voyageurs Cup and that ensures one more home match at least. Making playoffs longer only benefits those qualifying, making the rich richer and leaving the weaker sides with a thin base on which to build revenue (12 home games in total in a scenario where the league is bigger and stronger). Not ideal. 

I think we'll end up with Conferences and Divisions at that point, but not soley because of travel costs (which with more teams are reduced per road trip, as you'll have closer rivals across the country).

After the home and away match, split the league in 2 and play 5 or 10 extra games.

Position 1-6 and position 7-12

[Ansem]

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

In a similar vein it's noteworthy that Ansem stopped harping on about posts being off-topic which was another ploy being used to try to shut down discussion by people he disagreed with along with the whole millionaires should be left in peace to do what they want with their money where Canada's pro league structure is concerned angle.

You'd rather derail topics with your nonsense than start your own because you know most would just not engage. That's what's infuriating about you.

Can we go back to expansion?

Why don't you start your own USL/regional buses/ catch all thread and we'll talk

 

[Ansem]

7 hours ago, Ozzie_the_parrot said:

What also still appears to be missed by at least some posters on here is that my top consideration in what the league should do revolves only around a belief/hope that emotionally unpalatable steps should/will be taken if that ensures that the league is still around ten or twenty years from now not because I actually prefer regional bus travel formats to national air travel ones in fundamental ideological terms or leagues with MLS affiliates to leagues without them for that matter.

 

[narduch]

22 minutes ago, Ansem said:

You'd rather derail topics with your nonsense than start your own because you know most would just not engage. That's what's infuriating about you.

Can we go back to expansion?

Why don't you start your own USL/regional buses/ catch all thread and we'll talk

 

Hes advocating for the existing CPL teams to devalue their franchises. Its ludicrous 

[Unnamed Trialist]

7 hours ago, P-O said:

After the home and away match, split the league in 2 and play 5 or 10 extra games.

Position 1-6 and position 7-12

They do that in some European leagues because there's relegation. 

It makes no sense for the CPL, as I see it. You have to be playing with some sort of motivation. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Stanley]

20 hours ago, ted said:

Because in soccer/football "division" refers to the different levels of leagues. The CanPL is a Division One, (D1, First Division) as defined by FIFA.

Well that's true.  I'm old, my brain is failing.😁

[Kingston]

5 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

They do that in some European leagues because there's relegation. 

It makes no sense for the CPL, as I see it. You have to be playing with some sort of motivation. 

I agree.

Although if we do end up with an unbalanced schedule, they could schedule the extra games geographically even if there aren't officially conferences.  Just, say, Halifax ends up playing Ottawa, York, and Hamilton once more than it ends up playing the western teams.

[Unnamed Trialist]

44 minutes ago, Kingston said:

I agree.

Although if we do end up with an unbalanced schedule, they could schedule the extra games geographically even if there aren't officially conferences.  Just, say, Halifax ends up playing Ottawa, York, and Hamilton once more than it ends up playing the western teams.

When you have an unbalanced schedule because of the no. of teams, then yes. But not because you want to save money on travel, necessarily. 

Next year if the Vancouver-Langley team plays, Pacific get two road trips without flights, by bus and ferry, and two extra home games with the gate that entails. And the same number of away flights. 

I just took a quick look at the Wanderer's schedule. If I'm not erring, they went home then away all season, they don't have a single away trip that includes two away rivals on the same trip. At Ottawa is on the road 3 consecutive dates in September, but one weekend at Pacific, the next at Valour, then to Alberta...they are not doing two games away on the same trip, weekend + midweek, at any time.

So if they are not doing that, the league is not worrying about it, and the factor of letting teams play at home at the optimal time overrides any concerns about travel costs.

Do At Ottawa and Forge bus to each other's venue for matches? Or drive that 5 hours?

[red card]

KRUnited Media mapped out best markets for CPL based on 2 factors: people who watch soccer on tv/streaming or went to see soccer matches past month & people who play soccer or have children who play soccer past year.

Excluded are Kamloops, Kelowna & Moncton. It's based on 2021 survey data.

The top markets are Windsor, Brantford, Toronto CMA, Vancouver CMA, Ottawa Gatineau, North Bay, Hamilton. Timmins, Kingston & Cornwall.

If you consider viewing soccer as the top factor, then Saint John (or Moncton), Owen Sound, Halifax, Chatham, Kitchener, Sault Ste Marie, Cape Breton, London and North Bay are the best options.

If you consider playing soccer as the top factor, then Calgary, St. Catherines/Niagara, Sherbrooke, Edmonton, Cornwall, Kingston and Winnipeg are the best options.

Average performers across both factors are Victoria, Sudbury, Sarnia, Montreal CMA, St. John's, Quebec City, Granby, Belleville,  Saskatoon, Regina, Charlottetown and Brandon.

Within Toronto CMA, the best are Burlington, Scarborough, Brampton & Mississauga.

Within Montreal CMA, the best are the Island itself & Laval. 

 

http://www.krunitedmedia.com/blog/canpl-expansion-what-could-be-potential-markets-a-look-based-on-canadian-consumer-survey-data

 

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by red card

[Unnamed Trialist]

18 hours ago, narduch said:

Hes advocating for the existing CPL teams to devalue their franchises. Its ludicrous 

There is one point that has to be made, @narduch this is my opinion but I do feel strongly about it. 

It is counterproductive to overprice entry fees for clubs wanting to join the CPL. In my opinion having a 12 million dollar fee is assinine, and it responds to a mistaken mentality. You don't bunker down and act like you are in early on a good deal and use that to leverage income for yourself from every newcomer, as it is backwards thinking. Unfortunately, I think this backwards thinking is out there and they are not thinking it through. Adjust the fee, don't devalue yourself by a fee too high, value yourself by making it reasonable but lower.

First, a high fee makes reaching the goal of getting to 12 or 14 teams that much harder. Harder to fulfil the mission, not easier. And makes it harder as we move forward if they increase the fee further a year or three down the road.

Second, related, it seems to ignore that charging excessive amounts to join a league that is incomplete, by its own admission, is contradictory. And even more so if the team is also putting money into a stadium, infrastructure, is already commiting funds in a context of risk (as would be the case in most if not all circumstances, maybe excepting Regina or Moncton).

Then, third, by entering the league the new club is in fact helping it achieve its goals in terms of numbers, and is helping make it more complete. It is helping the league meet its mission, which is not to make money for the founders, but to grow the game in Canada. It is raising the value of CPL overall in that sense. But the raise in value is not founded on what it pays in, but what its very presence means.

Thinking about this, 4th (dumb numbering system I am on here), any new club opens up a new market and enhances existing markets. It increases overall fan base. It raises merchandising potential. It gets local kids and their clubs excited, local businesses too. Municipalities buy in, as they build or upgrade facilities that are also legacy for the community. Then, it means the other clubs will have their name recognition jump significantly, ie Forge or HFX will be names known in Saskatoon, say, while right now they may not be. 

Every new team reduces the relative responsibility of the rest to carry any team that fails. Ie, while now 7 teams carry FCE, next year 8 will. And any failure would have a smaller relative impact. 

Fifth, every new team lowers the relative cost of travel. A team in Québec City becomes HFXs closest road trip, Vancouver enables Pacific to go away by bus, and so on. The relative cost per road trip decreases with every new club, basically because we are not going to get any clubs further north, south or west, and almost surely no further east (sorry St John's, which I love).

Related to this, proximity means regional rivalries and derbies, another positive feature of football everywhere. And facilitates away travel by fans, which can help attendances and atmosphere as well as enabling fans to see more than just home games. 

Sixth, every new team begins to engage the local soccer community and provides an outlet and inspiration for its budding talent. First because a path and a vision opens up for talented teens. Then local U-Sports players. League One guys. At CPL salaries you have to be able to draw potential players who might live close enough. Or who are nearby and you can scout easier. Or can cover an injury or roster depletion. None of this busness of " we don't have the talent in Canada", which frankly, the MLS has been trying to sell us since day one. A falsehood US soccer promoted, US clubs accepted, the CSA has accepted, and Canadian MLS clubs too. A mass conspiracy to promote an inferiority complex. Screw that, the CPL is proving them wrong.

Finally, and for me it is important, every new club grows and gets to compete in the Voyageurs Cup, and other competitions possibly. Meaning a team in Saskatoon could get an MLS visit; and if it wins the league, a visit from a Central American team. Integrating a modest soccer community into world football in a great way. So the prestige of the sport grows beyond the CPL, is what I am saying. And the world sees CPL, as part of it has already with Forge and Pacific (so far the CPL has been to Mexico, Costa Rica, Jamaica, Honduras and Panama). Potentially a CPL team (or L1 for that matter) could end up playing the World Club Cup. What we don't have because we lack promotion, we have through these qualification systems: teams looking up and dreaming.

The 9 current owners sitting rubbing their sweaty palms and saying we were here first, if you want to sit in the tree house you gotta pay, that is plain retrograde. Look, there will come a day you can say it, when we have 12 teams, for example, or more. If a 13th really wants in, let them pay, when you reach the optimal threshold, whatever it may be (12, 13, 14?), require high entry fees. But not before. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Unnamed Trialist

[Kent]

21 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Second, related, it seems to ignore that charging excessive amounts to join a league that is incomplete, by its own admission, is contradictory. And even more so if the team is also putting money into a stadium, infrastructure, is already commiting funds in a context of risk (as would be the case in most if not all circumstances, maybe excepting Regina or Moncton).

This is an interesting point and has got me thinking. I don't know what the rich guys who own teams are actually thinking the reasons for expansion fees are, but lots of fans think that at least part of it is to signal that an ownership group is serious. If this is actually a consideration, it would be interesting/positive for money spent on building/upgrading a stadium to count towards an expansion fee. The league needs good stadiums, and if a team is going to spend, for example, 15 million on a stadium, give them a pass on the 12 million expansion fee, because they are already investing in the pro game.

[ted]

32 minutes ago, Kent said:

...if a team is going to spend, for example, 15 million on a stadium, give them a pass on the 12 million expansion fee, because they are already investing in the pro game.

This is an excellent idea. Maybe not entirely cover the entry fee, but allow a portion (maybe 75%) of it to be used towards building a stadium or something that builds the league and rewards investment like that.