Players you expect to see in the CPL

[MtlMario]

Yeah lets keep playing in American leagues. It been so good for us and there is no risk involved. Just look at the NHL, used to have Cdn comish, Cdn head office, and about 95% Cdn players.Now they're putting franchise fee so high to keep out Cdn cities out. Yeah everything is going great. Why risk anything?

[An Observer]

10 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

There were investors with big money behind some of the CSL franchises and at launch they were using both Ivor Wynne and Varsity Stadium in the Golden Horseshoe. The problems started with some of the corners they cut (and compromises they didn't make) to reach 8 teams to meet TSN's requirements for a regular game-of-the-week on basic cable something CanPL appears unlikely to have, which meant they were also using Esther Shiner and a stadium in Aylmer, Quebec which absolutely screamed bush league. It's also worth noting that the franchises that hung in there to the bitter end weren't necessarily the ones that had the richest investors and best stadium deals at the outset. You don't know in advance how the quality of investor CanPL is said to have will respond to an unexpectedly severe seven figure loss in year one and a couple of them getting cold feet has a much more drastic effect on the stability of a six to eight team league than it does in the context of a league with over thirty franchises like USL.

Hamilton was using Brian Timmis and not Ivor Wynne at launch and throughout the Steelers existence.  I went to the majority of their matches.  They played the odd exhibition match in Ivor Wynne...that was it.

[Macksam]

47 minutes ago, An Observer said:

Hamilton was using Brian Timmis and not Ivor Wynne at launch and throughout the Steelers existence.  I went to the majority of their matches.  They played the odd exhibition match in Ivor Wynne...that was it.

Haha, BBTB trying to pull another fast one by slightly altering history. Another of my favourites is how he argues things aren't different now because the old NASL had soccer flourishing in the three biggest Canadians markets. However, I keep pointing out how the Blizzard never had a huge following like TFC does now. In fact, the Drillers had a higher average attendance some seasons which refutes his point even more.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Macksam

[Gopherbashi]

3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said:

I just think it is funny you guys keep responding and responding.  He is posting the same arguments that he has been posting for like the last year.  The exact same ones.

 

#MuteButton 

But someone is still wrong on the internet!

[CNMNTPERUELIGIBLE]

18 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

All driven by blind faith by the looks of things. If they are losing well into seven figures per team per season because of an unrealistic business plan it will probably be one and done in a CPSL in 1983 sort of way and the soccer haters that have been silenced by the success of the MLS teams will come out of the woodwork again to crow about it incessantly.

Let's hope not @BringBackTheBlizzard...... Let us be optimistic , lmfao.... Don't jink it (jokes)... But I totally agree with your final statement and parallel you made about the original CSL and some players that managed to go on to greener pastures (to some extent I will say, certainly Radzinski) and what Montagliani is hoping to achieve with the current generation of players that are not being given any kind of opportunities by their respective clubs... Should provide a haven for those players at minimum I will say

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

8 hours ago, Marc said:

No, he's saying that given the evidence, the risk vs. reward calculation on holding out for our own league vs. working with USL - for fans, it's low, sure.  Let's admit it, following a USL team is pretty boring.  (As a former Lynx guy, I think I can say that.)

But the risk vs reward for the actual players and their development and their potential livelihoods, it's much much much higher risk.

For BBTB and his ilk, Plan A is develop players.  Because every year that we spend playing soccer simcity is another year where potential players fall through the cracks and leave the game or fail to grow.

I still don’t understand what risk you are talking about.... how is starting the CPL all that more risky than starting a bunch of separate USL teams? We already know that USL teams don’t really develop Canadian players all that well so I don’t understand where you are coming from.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

6 hours ago, An Observer said:

Hamilton was using Brian Timmis and not Ivor Wynne at launch and throughout the Steelers existence...

We've been through this before and Ivan (?) confirmed my version of what happened the last time around. Not that it matters hugely in the big scheme of things.

[ChrisinOrleans]

I just read through 4 pages of people ripping on BBTB, and I am still no closer to figuring out who will be in the CanPL. I don't follow TFC or Edmonton or anyone really outside of Ottawa, Montréal and the PLSQ, and was looking to get a bit of insight into whom would be Ottawa's potential opposition in 2019.  

If we're talking French-Canadian players, I'd assume some of the following would make the jump: 

André Hainault (German 3rd or 4th division)
Karl Ouimette (NASL, former IMFC) 
Maxim Tissot (Already with the Fury - and by far my favourite player of 2016)
Jérémy Gagnon-Laparé (AS Vitré in French 4th division)
Jon Vallée (FC Gatineau - PLSQ former Ottawa Fury)
Phillipe Davies (CS Longueuil former Ottawa Fury)
Zakaria Messoudi (Odds BK, former IMFC and Ottawa Fury)

There are around 10 others whom I would put in the "Maybe" category, depending on whether their current contracts end, or they land somewhere else - Like Olivier Occéan and Wandrille Lefèvre. 

Thoughts? 

 

[Rheo]

Agreed, we need to respect the thread and keep focus on the topic and leave the stupid, repetitive arguing (which I apologize for my contributions to it) to a minimum

[Ivan]

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

We've been through this before and Ivan (?) confirmed my version of what happened the last time around. Not that it matters hugely in the big scheme of things.

Confirmed.  I attended many Steeler games throughout their existence.  The opener was definitely at Ivor Wynne, as (IIRC) were many of their first year games, before they moved over to Brian Timmis.  

[Marc]

13 hours ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

I still don’t understand what risk you are talking about.... how is starting the CPL all that more risky than starting a bunch of separate USL teams? We already know that USL teams don’t really develop Canadian players all that well so I don’t understand where you are coming from.

Setting up 8 teams in 2020 (CPL)

vs.

Maintaining 4 teams from 2010 onwards and adding 2-6 more (USL)

The USL gave many Canadians a chance to go into FT soccer.  But regardless, the USL and CPL will perform the same function.  Not player development but player transitioning.  The CSL did not develop players.  The player development angle of the CPL, given its financial profile and our soccer setups, is just about rounding out the press releases and nothing more.

It's possible that this is off-topic from the forum, but at least BBTB has a coherent, evidence-based argument.  Even if it is a total bummer.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Marc

[Complete Homer]

5 minutes ago, Marc said:

It's possible that this is off-topic from the forum, but at least BBTB has a coherent, evidence-based argument.  Even if it is a total bummer.

Not to be nitpicking, but I'd argue BBTB stopped bringing evidence-based arguments to the table quite a while ago. He's gotten to the point that he will cite one source as reliable one day and paint is as unreliable once it no longer fits his narrative, he will ignores reasonable objections to his arguments and refocuses the discussion on how he feels personally attacked, and makes sweeping statement about things no one outside of the league actually has any information on. We have the tendency to associate pessimism with sober thought, but it's not true here. The reason why you don't see coherent responses is that people have stopped bothering, he'll just ignore your points and, ironically, build a strawman to attack.. 

FYI, his original argument was to fully buy into NASL, so I think we can all be glad that his vision didn't come true.

2 hours ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

I just read through 4 pages of people ripping on BBTB, and I am still no closer to figuring out who will be in the CanPL. I don't follow TFC or Edmonton or anyone really outside of Ottawa, Montréal and the PLSQ, and was looking to get a bit of insight into whom would be Ottawa's potential opposition in 2019.  

If we're talking French-Canadian players, I'd assume some of the following would make the jump: 

André Hainault (German 3rd or 4th division)
Karl Ouimette (NASL, former IMFC) 
Maxim Tissot (Already with the Fury - and by far my favourite player of 2016)
Jérémy Gagnon-Laparé (AS Vitré in French 4th division)
Jon Vallée (FC Gatineau - PLSQ former Ottawa Fury)
Phillipe Davies (CS Longueuil former Ottawa Fury)
Zakaria Messoudi (Odds BK, former IMFC and Ottawa Fury)

There are around 10 others whom I would put in the "Maybe" category, depending on whether their current contracts end, or they land somewhere else - Like Olivier Occéan and Wandrille Lefèvre. 

Thoughts? 

 

Tissot has usually stood out to me as the poster boy of what CPL should be aiming for. I think your list is pretty reasonable.

I would think that Lefevre would be on the list too. Given our small pool and how few will actually be out of contract when they start building the teams, I'm certain that it will be open season for picking up pretty much any Canadian that has been a pro at some point and several who haven't. Occean might be a different story though, he may have put down roots abroad and might not be interested in retiring in Canada

[ChrisinOrleans]

20 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

Tissot has usually stood out to me as the poster boy of what CPL should be aiming for. I think your list is pretty reasonable.

I would think that Lefevre would be on the list too. Given our small pool and how few will actually be out of contract when they start building the teams, I'm certain that it will be open season for picking up pretty much any Canadian that has been a pro at some point and several who haven't. Occean might be a different story though, he may have put down roots abroad and might not be interested in retiring in Canada

I hope you're right. He is a stand-up guy, and would make an excellent CB for a team based in Québec City. I was more referring to guys like Chonière and Jackson-Hamel, who are currently getting minutes with an MLS club, but who are not superstars and often struggle for minutes. Tissot and Ouimette were in that boat a few years ago, and I am sure would have loved to have had the opportunity to land in CanPL. I wonder if others will take the plunge (see also, Béland-Goyette and Giguière-Meilleure).  

Occéan was recently released from Odds BK in the Norwegian 1st division, so I can see him making the jump back to Canada. 

I hope there is a team in Québec just for that reason. For a lot of these guys, Bordeaux or Oslo is the same distance from Québec City as Vancouver or Calgary. 

[Alex D]

1 hour ago, Marc said:

Setting up 8 teams in 2020 (CPL)

vs.

Maintaining 4 teams from 2010 onwards and adding 2-6 more (USL)

The USL gave many Canadians a chance to go into FT soccer.  But regardless, the USL and CPL will perform the same function.  Not player development but player transitioning.  The CSL did not develop players.  The player development angle of the CPL, given its financial profile and our soccer setups, is just about rounding out the press releases and nothing more.

It's possible that this is off-topic from the forum, but at least BBTB has a coherent, evidence-based argument.  Even if it is a total bummer.

This is a hypocritical argument because these teams that would have formed in the American system are imaginary! Victoria and London never got past the tire kicking "wouldn't this be nice someday" step. Ottawa got an NASL team during this moratorium. Others could have if they wanted to, but they didn't. 

We currently have a league set to kick off next year with 8-10 teams which, although we don't know the details yet, surely can no longer be considered imaginary at this point. So can we shut the fuck up about revisionist history and stay on topic please. 

Edited January 17, 2018 by Alex D
I need Tylenol

[Complete Homer]

33 minutes ago, ChrisinOrleans said:

I hope you're right. He is a stand-up guy, and would make an excellent CB for a team based in Québec City. I was more referring to guys like Chonière and Jackson-Hamel, who are currently getting minutes with an MLS club, but who are not superstars and often struggle for minutes. Tissot and Ouimette were in that boat a few years ago, and I am sure would have loved to have had the opportunity to land in CanPL. I wonder if others will take the plunge (see also, Béland-Goyette and Giguière-Meilleure).  

Occéan was recently released from Odds BK in the Norwegian 1st division, so I can see him making the jump back to Canada. 

I hope there is a team in Québec just for that reason. For a lot of these guys, Bordeaux or Oslo is the same distance from Québec City as Vancouver or Calgary. 

I think Jackson-Hamel will stay in MLS for sure. He's gotten a taste of starting minutes, and unless IMFC pulls a Jordan Hamilton I think he's done what it takes to be given more chances, especially since IMFC has been pretty quiet on the acquisition side of things. The rest I could see jumping eventually

And I'm with you. I love QC and whenever I'm there the city just screams the type of city that will rally around a team. My informal canvassing of colleagues in Quebec City during a conference last year was pretty positive. The league wouldn't truly feel like the Canadian Premier League without a Quebec presence, and Quebec City itself just seems ripe for the picking.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Complete Homer

[Marc]

19 minutes ago, Alex D said:

This is a hypocritical argument because these teams that would have formed in the American system are imaginary! Victoria and London never got past the tire kicking "wouldn't this be nice someday" step. Ottawa got an NASL team during this moratorium. Others could have if they wanted to, but they didn't. 

We currently have a league set to kick off next year with 8-10 teams which, although we don't know the details yet, surely can no longer be considered imaginary at this point. So can we shut the fuck up about revisionist history and stay on topic please. 

How many CPL games have been played in Canada in the last eight years?

How many USL games have been played in Canada in the last eight years?

Part of they reason that "others could have if they wanted to but they didn't" is that we've spent years and years saying that we're going to have a league next year.  Until they set foot on the field, they too are imaginary!

Want people to "shut the fuck up"?  Form a coherent argument.

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

 We have the tendency to associate pessimism with sober thought, but it's not true here. 

Homer.  Come on.  This Alex guy just tried to chastize me about potential USL teams while referencing real USL teams in the same sentence, while touting a 8-10 that we've spent years talking about and that was supposed to start last year and has yet to play a game.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Marc

[Rheo]

Can't we all just agree to disagree and give it a rest for a bit especially since the arguing has nothing to do with the thread...

Maybe we should just start a non-stop repetitive arguing thread to keep some of these other ones clean.  I know I've done my part in the problem but I'm beginning to see why some choose to leave.

[Complete Homer]

15 minutes ago, Marc said:

Homer.  Come on.  This Alex guy just tried to chastize me about potential USL teams while referencing real USL teams in the same sentence, while touting a 8-10 that we've spent years talking about and that was supposed to start last year and has yet to play a game.

Not sure what you mean, I think I may have used poor phrasing.

What I meant is that people have a natural inclination to think that someone responding to an idea with pessimism and condescension is coming from a place of sober thought...but BTBB's arguments have become looser and looser with evidence over time to the point that he's blatantly ignoring evidence and being exceedingly selective about what he considers relevant information

I'm not saying everyone else here consistently uses evidence based arguments, and I'm also not saying that there isn't a place for reasonable arguments that are less favourable towards CPL (see @mpg_29, who isn't convinced but seems to stay within evidence in his posts). I'm just saying that BTBB left behind evidence quite a while ago, and holding him up as the reasonable counterweight to overly optimistic posters doesn't reflect reality. 

 

Edit: Fair point to @Rheo, this is pretty off topic. In the end it doesn't really matter, BTBB didn't manage to kill optimism to the point that grassroots SGs weren't able to use this site as a nucleation point, so there isn't really a need to constantly rebut him

Edited January 17, 2018 by Complete Homer

[Ansem]

2 hours ago, Marc said:

Setting up 8 teams in 2020 (CPL)

vs.

Maintaining 4 teams from 2010 onwards and adding 2-6 more (USL)

The USL gave many Canadians a chance to go into FT soccer.  But regardless, the USL and CPL will perform the same function.  Not player development but player transitioning.  The CSL did not develop players.  The player development angle of the CPL, given its financial profile and our soccer setups, is just about rounding out the press releases and nothing more.

It's possible that this is off-topic from the forum, but at least BBTB has a coherent, evidence-based argument.  Even if it is a total bummer.

Cut it out already. You're off topic and then that ship has sailed while USL pretty much insinuated or flat out said they don't want Canadian clubs anymore.

So please hurry up with the 5 stage of grief and move on to acceptance. Getting tired of this pointless back and forth

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

29 minutes ago, Ansem said:

...Cut it out already. You're off topic and then that ship has sailed while USL pretty much insinuated or flat out said they don't want Canadian clubs anymore...

Which is why they accepted Ottawa when they didn't have to? That's a myth that grows with the telling on here. The point being made is that there are a lot of Canadian players that don't quite make it into MLS after going through an MLS academy or NCAA scholarship that could easily stock a few more pro teams and need that opportunity to get their big break. CanPL has been given a chance to be that destination. If they can't get the launch sorted out people will get tired of waiting and USL will be the CSA's plan B. Either way it will be much the same talent pool in Canadian terms that will be getting the new pro contracts that will be available.

 

[Ansem]

7 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Which is why they accepted Ottawa when they didn't have to? That's a myth that grows with the telling on here. The point being made is that there are a lot of Canadian players that don't quite make it into MLS after going through an MLS academy or NCAA scholarship that could easily stock a few more pro teams and need that opportunity to get their big break. CanPL has been given a chance to be that destination. If they can't get the launch sorted out people will get tired of waiting and USL will be the CSA's plan B. Either way it will be much the same talent pool in Canadian terms that will be getting the new pro contracts that will be available.

 

Create your own thread to vent. You're off topic and you're getting on everyone's nerve. Please create a naysayer/skeptic thread. Stop detailing threads

[Macksam]

19 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Which is why they accepted Ottawa when they didn't have to? That's a myth that grows with the telling on here. The point being made is that there are a lot of Canadian players that don't quite make it into MLS after going through an MLS academy or NCAA scholarship that could easily stock a few more pro teams and need that opportunity to get their big break. CanPL has been given a chance to be that destination. If they can't get the launch sorted out people will get tired of waiting and USL will be the CSA's plan B. Either way it will be much the same talent pool in Canadian terms that will be getting the new pro contracts that will be available.

 

Lol, I'll play BBTB's game and speak his language.

Clearly that was a play to nab an NASL team and destabilize that league even further.

As for the second bolded point.

Increasing the talent pool is only one part of the equation. The CPL is looking to build substantial soccer infrastructure across the country.

Here's a scenario: down the road in the future, a professional soccer club finally tears down its pop up and builds a permanent 20,000+ SSS to meet fan demand and take the club to the next level financially and professionally. Do you see this happening in the USL or CPL? Be honest.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Macksam

[Rheo]

Ledgerwood  specifically mentions CPL for signing with Calgary https://t.co/s6RnOQPItt

[Alex D]

4 hours ago, Marc said:

How many CPL games have been played in Canada in the last eight years?

How many USL games have been played in Canada in the last eight years?

Part of they reason that "others could have if they wanted to but they didn't" is that we've spent years and years saying that we're going to have a league next year.  Until they set foot on the field, they too are imaginary!

Buddy, we are down to 2 USL teams, one of them seems like they may move to CPL (not claiming it's confirmed). The CPL has played as many games as any of the supposed teams we woulda coulda shoulda had in the US leagues. The teams interested in CPL weren't lining up to play down south, these ownship groups only exist because of CPL. If we come away with a stable long term league then it was all worth it. 

[CDNFootballer]

2 hours ago, Rheo said:

Ledgerwood  specifically mentions CPL for signing with Calgary https://t.co/s6RnOQPItt