Players you expect to see in the CPL

[BuzzAndSting]

2 minutes ago, CNMNTPERUELIGIBLE said:

Sounds better as this may boost the quality of players they are willing to invest and bring in, into the league at an attempt to remove the amateurish stigma the seems to be developing in a lot of corners, lmao... Let's wait and see......

Who is calling the league amateur? Other than a few detractors on this site it seems the overwhelming sentiment is that this whole enterprise is being done correctly and professionally. All the staff in place seem to be legitimate, well qualified hires. The ownership groups are all seemingly well funded, educated and passionate. 

[CNMNTPERUELIGIBLE]

1 minute ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Who is calling the league amateur? Other than a few detractors on this site it seems the overwhelming sentiment is that this whole enterprise is being done correctly and professionally. All the staff in place seem to be legitimate, well qualified hires. The ownership groups are all seemingly well funded, educated and passionate. 

Exactly, that is the source where I was getting this from @BuzzAndSting... The damn detractors that you mentioned... I personally don't believe it will be amateurish.... And yes, like you say, this whole enterprise is being done correctly and professionally.... I can certainly attest to that, but you always get these naysayers that ruin the vibe of it... what can one do, right???... I have in fact heard that PB and co. clearly don't want to make this an amateur league, not to mention to develop that stigma or to be seen as a developmental-type of league to other leagues, primarily MLS... He certainly does not want to be seen as something along the lines of say AHL, G-LEAGUE or minor league baseball or NCAA level to throw in an explanation... He and co. have been very bold and clear of this... Let's just ignore those naysayers and tell them to take a hike, lol... I absolutely agree with the qualifications of the staff that has been hired together with the ownership groups, who many carry deep, deep pockets, well-educated and passionate about the game and having it take off to a whole other dimension in this country... Heck, you can't be soft pocket if you owned CFL & NHL franchises, right??.. So that just says a lot of what they are willing to invest... I hope I didn't cause any harm... I just wanted to emphasized that this league does not want by any means to be labeled as AMATEURISH... That in itself is COMPLETE NONSENSE... It's gonna prove all those naysayers wrong, trust me

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

8 hours ago, CNMNTPERUELIGIBLE said:

@BuzzAndSting... That in itself is COMPLETE NONSENSE... It's gonna prove all those naysayers wrong, trust me

All driven by blind faith by the looks of things. If they are losing well into seven figures per team per season because of an unrealistic business plan it will probably be one and done in a CPSL in 1983 sort of way and the soccer haters that have been silenced by the success of the MLS teams will come out of the woodwork again to crow about it incessantly. Having the sub-average lower end of the pay scale close to burger flipping territory initially (as the 32 to 48k numbers seem to imply) and targeting money mainly at a few core players to form the spine of the team is exactly what they need to be doing to make it through the early years, if and it's still a big if (no MLS affiliates, no FCE and apparently no interested group in Quebec so far) they can put six teams together and two in the pipeline with viable stadium solutions.

The MLS academies are churning out lots of players that are surplus to requirements in MLS terms and there are always NCAA scholarship players returning that didn't attract any interest from MLS, so there is plenty of scope for stocking the rosters of more USL sort of level (in terms of quality on the field of play) soccer franchises and these guys don't need to be paid huge amounts of money to give it a try for a few years. Most wouldn't get any further but some would use it the way Jason Devos, Tomas Radzinski, Fernando Aguiar, John Limniatis, Alex Bunbury, Mark Watson, Niall Thompson, Carlo Corazzin, Nick Dasovic, Paul Fenwick, Geoff Aunger and Paul Peschisolido used the original CSL as a springboard for bigger and better things over in Europe. Creating that sort of pathway again for players that are currently falling between the cracks is probably what Victor Montagliani had in mind when he talked about creating more pro level opportunities for Canadian players.

Edited January 16, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Rheo]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

All driven by blind faith by the looks of things.

And is not fair to say that you seem to be driven by (for lack of a better term) the PTSD of seeing past attempts at national leagues fail since you continually reference them with all you skepticism with most things CPL?  

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Perfectly normal to refer to history for precedents. One of the big problems with Canadian soccer is that there are always people with messiah complexes coming in that don't know anything about the past and keep repeating many of the same avoidable mistakes as a result in line with the famous George Santayana quote. Beyond that a new pro league isn't the only way that more pro level opportunities for Canadian players can be achieved when there are functional USSF sanctioned leagues available and each year that passes since 2010 with stunted progress at the level below MLS because people are still tilting at windmills chasing a dream that is not at all easy to achieve is another year when the next Jason Devos misses out on what could have been his big break because there is no London Lasers team to sign for in their city.

[MtlMario]

I"m amazed how you like to compare  a league of the 80's with ( good intended) owners that weren't multi millionaires to what's being done today with the quality of people being hired by CPL. I'm sure the next round of owners won't be Bob Laker types(money wise).

[dbailey62]

29 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Perfectly normal to refer to history for precedents. One of the big problems with Canadian soccer is that there are always people with messiah complexes coming in that don't know anything about the past and keep repeating many of the same avoidable mistakes as a result in line with the famous George Santayana quote. Beyond that a new pro league isn't the only way that more pro level opportunities for Canadian players can be achieved when there are functional USSF sanctioned leagues available and each year that passes since 2010 with stunted progress at the level below MLS because people are still tilting at windmills chasing a dream that is not at all easy to achieve is another year when the next Jason Devos misses out on what could have been his big break because there is no London Lasers team to sign for in their city.

Or Pesch in Toronto or Alex in Hamilton or Onstad in Winnipeg etc etc etc. Now they may very well have found alternate routes they and Jason being special players but nobody knows that for certain. The league fulfilled it's role and perhaps with a more sympathetic CSA, it might have been able to continue to do so.  

 

 

 

 

[dbailey62]

2 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

I"m amazed how you like to compare  a league of the 80's with ( good intended) owners that weren't multi millionaires to what's being done today with the quality of people being hired by CPL. I'm sure the next round of owners won't be Bob Laker types(money wise).

I believe that's called learning from past mistakes. We know what went wrong in the CSL and the CPL will not repeat those past mistakes just as MLS is not repeating the blunders of the true NASL. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

3 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

I"m amazed how you like to compare  a league of the 80's with ( good intended) owners that weren't multi millionaires to what's being done today with the quality of people being hired by CPL. I'm sure the next round of owners won't be Bob Laker types(money wise).

There were investors with big money behind some of the CSL franchises and at launch they were using both Ivor Wynne and Varsity Stadium in the Golden Horseshoe. The problems started with some of the corners they cut (and compromises they didn't make) to reach 8 teams to meet TSN's requirements for a regular game-of-the-week on basic cable something CanPL appears unlikely to have, which meant they were also using Esther Shiner and a stadium in Aylmer, Quebec which absolutely screamed bush league. It's also worth noting that the franchises that hung in there to the bitter end weren't necessarily the ones that had the richest investors and best stadium deals at the outset. You don't know in advance how the quality of investor CanPL is said to have will respond to an unexpectedly severe seven figure loss in year one and a couple of them getting cold feet has a much more drastic effect on the stability of a six to eight team league than it does in the context of a league with over thirty franchises like USL.

[MtlMario]

I don't think these owners are coming in with blinders on.

[Rheo]

I'm not saying there's nothing to be learned from history, only an idiot would say that.  I just don't understand your constant condescension to anyone who disagrees with you as basically naive, idiotic people worshipping the golden calf of CPL or your arrogance, assuming that the people behind the CPL have not and/or will not learn anything from past leagues here and MLS and that only you and a handful of people that agree with you are the only ones who see the virtual inevitable doom that you keep implying is coming just because you saw it happen before. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If it follows the usual trajectory of pro soccer franchises in North America over the last 50 years, it will be a mixed bag. The lack of prior pro soccer involvement in many/most cases would make the absence of at least one truly clueless and blindly optimistic Edmonton Aviators and San Francisco Deltas type ownership group unusual/fortuitous and the hiring of John Herdman seems like the canary in the coal mine to me on the current quality of leadership at the CSA level post-Montagliani. If there were more large markets readily available to be able to afford a few fiascos none of that would necessarily be fatal, but the margin for error on this is very small given how difficult it is in a Canadian context (especially with the three MLS markets problematic due to having USSF D1 teams) to get eight ducks neatly in a row for a domestic pro league.

Edited January 16, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Cheeta]

1 hour ago, dbailey62 said:

Or Pesch in Toronto or Alex in Hamilton or Onstad in Winnipeg etc etc etc. Now they may very well have found alternate routes they and Jason being special players but nobody knows that for certain. The league fulfilled it's role and perhaps with a more sympathetic CSA, it might have been able to continue to do so.  

 

 

 

 

 

If there are 100 paying jobs as Canadian footballers available out there in the CPL that's 100 jobs ambitious youth players can spend a few years chasing their dream.  They have a reason to stick with this playing footie at the best level they can without setting their lives back a decade by chasing a pipe dream in foreign lands.  And I'd bet for every one of those 100 jobs there will be 100 elite youth players willing to put off "growing up" for a bit longer because that opportunity exists.  

We all know the league is going to be a stepping stone to better things, or a place to re-invigorate a stalled career but that doesn't make it a bad thing.  Quite the opposite.  It's going to be a real fun place, you can just feel it.  

[Gopherbashi]

47 minutes ago, Rheo said:

I'm not saying there's nothing to be learned from history, only an idiot would say that.  I just don't understand your constant condescension to anyone who disagrees with you as basically naive, idiotic people worshipping the golden calf of CPL or your arrogance, assuming that the people behind the CPL have not and/or will not learn anything from past leagues here and MLS and that only you and a handful of people that agree with you are the only ones who see the virtual inevitable doom that you keep implying is coming just because you saw it happen before. 

Except he's right on this one though.  We tried it 30 years ago and we couldn't get it done then - I don't see why we should expect (or even want) to see a different result this time around.

It's about time the MNT follows the same philosophy.  We haven't made the World Cup in eight tries since 1986 and at this point trying to qualify is a waste of time and money.  We're better off focusing our energy on supporting the Americans, and if for some reason Canada decides to enter a national team in the next round of WCQ, I'm going to cheer against them and hope they fail because we tried this thirty years ago with a completely different group of people so why would we expect anything different now?

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Strawman after strawman. The point I'm really making is that we don't need to risk another failed league if conditions aren't ripe when there is an alternative readily available and if it doesn't get done this year, it will be time to try another strategy. We can have more pro teams, if it turns out that significantly fewer than eight is all that is doable in the current climate, by simply using the USL. Over and out on this particular line of argument as it has strayed way off topic where this thread is concerned.

Edited January 16, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Rheo]

And more condescension but at least we've stepped up a level from naive idiots to strawmen now lol

[dbailey62]

47 minutes ago, Cheeta said:

 

If there are 100 paying jobs as Canadian footballers available out there in the CPL that's 100 jobs ambitious youth players can spend a few years chasing their dream.  They have a reason to stick with this playing footie at the best level they can without setting their lives back a decade by chasing a pipe dream in foreign lands.  And I'd bet for every one of those 100 jobs there will be 100 elite youth players willing to put off "growing up" for a bit longer because that opportunity exists.  

We all know the league is going to be a stepping stone to better things, or a place to re-invigorate a stalled career but that doesn't make it a bad thing.  Quite the opposite.  It's going to be a real fun place, you can just feel it.  

Absolutely!

[Alex D]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The point I'm really making is that we don't need to risk another failed league if conditions aren't ripe when there is an alternative readily available and if it doesn't get done this year, it will be time to try another strategy. We can have more pro teams, if it turns out that significantly fewer than eight is all that is doable in the current climate, by simply using the USL. 

But you are basing this on nothing and it is contrary to all reports in the media. You have dug yourself a hole and now you don't know how to get out so you keep digging. 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

2 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Strawman after strawman. The point I'm really making is that we don't need to risk another failed league if conditions aren't ripe when there is an alternative readily available and if it doesn't get done this year, it will be time to try another strategy. We can have more pro teams, if it turns out that significantly fewer than eight is all that is doable in the current climate, by simply using the USL. Over and out on this particular line of argument as it has strayed way off topic where this thread is concerned.

Right... so if the league fails those remaining teams that were doing well are just going to disappear right? They won’t attempt to remain in oporation by moving to the USL? I don’t get your point. If half of the CPL teams don’t have the market and the league folds, those other remaining teams can go play in the USL. But, at least we can say we attempted to do something big. 

It seems like you are saying that we will fail, so we should just go with plan B right from the start... I don’t understand that. We might as well try to create something great for Canada. If we fail, then the remaining teams can go to USL. 

Great things don’t get started by assuming you will fail. I am glad the CPL has ambition.

[Marc]

25 minutes ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

It seems like you are saying that we will fail, so we should just go with plan B right from the start... I don’t understand that. We might as well try to create something great for Canada. If we fail, then the remaining teams can go to USL. 

No, he's saying that given the evidence, the risk vs. reward calculation on holding out for our own league vs. working with USL - for fans, it's low, sure.  Let's admit it, following a USL team is pretty boring.  (As a former Lynx guy, I think I can say that.)

But the risk vs reward for the actual players and their development and their potential livelihoods, it's much much much higher risk.

For BBTB and his ilk, Plan A is develop players.  Because every year that we spend playing soccer simcity is another year where potential players fall through the cracks and leave the game or fail to grow.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Marc

[Bison44]

Most of us dont want to have more USL teams.  Most of us think that the the way things have been going  (in terms of player development) needs to change.  Slapping a few more CDN clubs in USL doesnt seem like much of a solution, especially since we have lost 2 USL teams, 1 NASL club and the other NASL get demoted to USL in the past couple years.  If we are looking at risk/reward etc, the whitecaps spent alot of cash etc and came to the conclusion that the USL/CDN affiliate set up was a waste of time.   FCE choose to close their doors (with the NASL), only Ottawa choose the USL route and it seems like they are quite willing to jump to a CDN CPL as soon as it starts. 

Having no professional soccer on the praires, AB, the maritimes etc that helps "potential players fall through the cracks and leave the game or fail to grow."  Every soccer nation worth its salt has some sort of domestic league.  Even if its slightly below USL in quality to start off with.  If we wait until everything is perfect (ie never) then I think we loose another generation of kids that might have become professionals/possible CMNT contributors.  Its not by accident, it wasnt some fluke that all those talented CDN players (Jason Devos, Tomas Radzinski, Fernando Aguiar, John Limniatis, Alex Bunbury, Mark Watson, Niall Thompson, Carlo Corazzin, Nick Dasovic, Paul Fenwick, Geoff Aunger and Paul Peschisolido/thanks for the list BBTB) developed the last time we had a decent domestic league.  Now we need our own league to be the straw that broke the camels back, tip things towards soccer in canada.  MLS is the 3 major markets has done yeomans work, but we still need our own league that focuses on CDN players, not just give lip service to CDN development like MLS.  

[Kent]

CSL failed in the early nineties, so apparently we should go with what is readily available (ie look for crumbs off of USA’s table) even though that approach has failed us from 1993 through now (or if you prefer, since the moratorium that BBTB loves to bring up, was that 2010?).

Why can’t we use historical precedent to point out that the USSF won’t provide us with solutions to our problems?

[Marc]

Of course, we don't want more USL teams because we're fans - we want an emotional experience beyond London playing Des Moines.  And that's fine!

But if we're talking development, we got Bunburies and Limniatises because we had (fairly) regular, (relatively) pro, (kinda) FT playing opportunities for the 1-2 critical years that determine if you're going to go pro before springboarding to bigger and better fairly quickly.  Not because Bunbury played for the Steelers vs Limniatis for the Intrepid, as much as we loved that. And certainly not because of high on-field quality or some development model.

Our USL teams have moved due to our association's USL resistance and focus on a national league.  We can't even quantify the opportunity cost of waiting year after year.

Sure, even an aborted 5-year, 8-team league gets us 40 "league-years" of (future) development (if it launches.)  What if we could have had 4 USL teams over the past 8 years, adding a couple every few years - we could have easily surpassed that by now.

We want a Canadian league.  We need playing opportunities.  So far, our wants have relegated our needs to the backseat.  The return may be worth it.  Experience suggests otherwise.  (And we now have MLS taking our three biggest markets)

I hope it succeeds!  But until then, BBTB is the most rational (albeit unpopular) guy here.

 

(An aside: the nostalgia for the CSL talent is strange - yes, we were close in 94, but we achieved nada internationally with most of them.  Interestingly, our most successful international squads are from the NASL and the A-League years.)

(Another: the impact is overstated, no?  7 of the 11 played 2 seasons.  Bunbury 3.  Ditto DeVos, and he spent longer in the A-League than CSL.  Thompson zero IRRC - he was European until the A-League.  The only CSL lifers there - Watson, Aunger, Fenwick - were lovable but mediocre.)

Edited January 16, 2018 by Marc

[Rheo]

2 minutes ago, Kent said:

CSL failed in the early nineties, so apparently we should go with what is readily available (ie look for crumbs off of USA’s table) even though that approach has failed us from 1993 through now (or if you prefer, since the moratorium that BBTB loves to bring up, was that 2010?).

Why can’t we use historical precedent to point out that the USSF won’t provide us with solutions to our problems?

Especially given that Sandor has said that USL representatives have told him that they don't want Canadian teams in their league if they could avoid it.  But I'm sure they'll welcome us with open arms lol

[dyslexic nam]

I just think it is funny you guys keep responding and responding.  He is posting the same arguments that he has been posting for like the last year.  The exact same ones.

 

#MuteButton