Players you expect to see in the CPL

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

41 minutes ago, 1996 said:

What a league like a CPL will do like what the MLS in Canada has done is give us fans a chance to finally see what these Canadian players who play in leagues all over the world how good they really are...

It may not be as easy to attract players back as some like to think if 40k is the average salary (the sub-average lower end of the scale could be approaching burger flipping territory in that scenario) and a lot of the limited amount of money available went on a few quality imports making 100k+. Suspect we would see a lot of guys filling out the rosters (beyond the core 8 to 10 or so making the better money that would be skewed towards imports and a limited number of fringe CMNT players) that currently don't get pro contracts, which wouldn't necessarily be fatal in any way as long as the core of the roster was of a reasonable quality but would mean that the overall quality in depth might take a decade or so to build as an initial cohort of 18-23 year olds that haven't started careers outside the sport yet works its way through the system to retirement and is slowly replaced by better younger players.

The big unanswered question for me is if they plan on having single entity? If they don't, and players signing from clubs overseas can negotiate with all 6 or 8 teams before putting pen to paper along with ex-MLS academy prospects (I suspect they would feature prominently) rather than only the team that claims their rights in the context of the league, competitive disparities beween teams based close to the GTA and Vancouver and the rest would be likely to emerge. One of the things that keeps the CFL relatively stable and equitable is that the combination of a relatively low hard cap, a huge oversupply of pro level American talent and a Canadian draft means that the Argos, Lions and Ticats don't get stacked in talent terms relative to the Roughriders. They would need a formula on how players and salary money get distributed that is similar to that in some way to be able to sustain the operation after the startup capital and initial euphoria starts to wear off or tensions would quickly build between the large and small markets, whose natural habitats would be D2 and D3/4 in the USSF's system. 

Edited January 14, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Kent]

8 hours ago, 1996 said:

What a league like a CPL will do like what the MLS in Canada has done is give us fans a chance to finally see what these Canadian players who play in leagues all over the world how good they really are. I remember before TFC there were  a few Canadian players that had played in a few leagues over in Europe and elsewhere that we could never see play day in day out at the club level, we only saw them play the odd time with the national team  but never at the club level so sometimes you could not really formulate how good a player was. I remember a few Canadian players who played on TFC for example in the early seasons of TFC , because I saw them play at the club level now for TFC I got a better perspective of what kind of player the player was , something I was not able to really do by seeing a player play just at the national team level. Therefore, just in terms of a fan perspective it will give us more chances to see what kind of players some of these players are, how good they really are, because now sometimes fans want certain players to being playing on the national just because they play in a certain league overseas, without really having the chance to really see them play day in day out.

Not just for fans, but for CMNT (and youth teams potentially) scouting. No doubt it makes it hard to pick players when you are watching the occasional appearance of guys in completely separate obscure leagues and trying to choose between them. If they are playing in the same league it becomes much easier to compare them.

[CNMNTPERUELIGIBLE]

15 hours ago, dbailey62 said:

scored 32 goals in 61 appearances

whoa!!!!... wouldn't have thought so, lol... Didn't look to have that goal scoring instinct imho, but I guess I was wrong... He should bring that over to CANPL, lol... 

[BuzzAndSting]

10 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

It may not be as easy to attract players back as some like to think if 40k is the average salary (the sub-average lower end of the scale could be approaching burger flipping territory in that scenario) and a lot of the limited amount of money available went on a few quality imports making 100k+. Suspect we would see a lot of guys filling out the rosters (beyond the core 8 to 10 or so making the better money that would be skewed towards imports and a limited number of fringe CMNT players) that currently don't get pro contracts, which wouldn't necessarily be fatal in any way as long as the core of the roster was of a reasonable quality but would mean that the overall quality in depth might take a decade or so to build as an initial cohort of 18-23 year olds that haven't started careers outside the sport yet works its way through the system to retirement and is slowly replaced by better younger players.

The big unanswered question for me is if they plan on having single entity? If they don't, and players signing from clubs overseas can negotiate with all 6 or 8 teams before putting pen to paper along with ex-MLS academy prospects (I suspect they would feature prominently) rather than only the team that claims their rights in the context of the league, competitive disparities beween teams based close to the GTA and Vancouver and the rest would be likely to emerge. One of the things that keeps the CFL relatively stable and equitable is that the combination of a relatively low hard cap, a huge oversupply of pro level American talent and a Canadian draft means that the Argos, Lions and Ticats don't get stacked in talent terms relative to the Roughriders. They would need a formula on how players and salary money get distributed that is similar to that in some way to be able to sustain the operation after the startup capital and initial euphoria starts to wear off or tensions would quickly build between the large and small markets, whose natural habitats would be D2 and D3/4 in the USSF's system. 

The average salary will be in the $55-75K range.

[1996]

18 hours ago, dbailey62 said:

I wonder what Issey has planned. He just left his Malaysian club by mutual consent after having scored 32 goals in 61 appearances since 2015 and leading them to promotion to the Super League, a very nice strike rate. 

I'd love to see him in Ottawa! I really liked him in his short spell with TFC.  

He got his chance at TFC and even Montreal but in the end was just not good enough and was let go, I saw him eneough times with TFC and he was nothing special . Like I mentioned in another post having Canadian teams where Canadian players can play in gives us fans a chance to see how good these Canadian players really are, when you can see them play game in game out exactly what having 8 to 10 and eventually more in the new CPL will give us fans a chance to see a lot of these Canadian players that we only read about playing overseas on teams we can never watch them play on, Issey was one of these players that for so many years we read about playing overseas but with the exception of the odd national team game we saw him play in, we never really saw what he was like st the club level , however, we got the chance when he played for TFC and then Montreal and in my eyes after watching him play he was never up to par at that level, and even though this new CPL will be at a lower level at in the first few years compared to MLS now a much older Issey I don’t think will be  anything special in the CPL maybe an average player can’t see him being one of the better ones.

Edited January 15, 2018 by 1996

[yellowsweatygorilla]

49 minutes ago, 1996 said:

He got his chance at TFC and even Montreal but in the end was just not good enough and was let go, I saw him eneough times with TFC and he was nothing special . Like I mentioned in another post having Canadian teams where Canadian players can play in gives us fans a chance to see how good these Canadian players really are, when you can see them play game in game out exactly what having 8 to 10 and eventually more in the new CPL will give us fans a chance to see a lot of these Canadian players that we only read about playing overseas on teams we can never watch them play on, Issey was one of these players that for so many years we read about playing overseas but with the exception of the odd national team game we saw him play in, we never really saw what he was like st the club level , however, we got the chance when he played for TFC and then Montreal and in my eyes after watching him play he was never up to par at that level, and even though this new CPL will be at a lower level at in the first few years compared to MLS now a much older Issey I don’t think will be  anything special in the CPL maybe an average player can’t see him being one of the better ones.

Seriously? That was not my recollection of him at TFC as a season seat holder. He played very well (2 goals in 2 starts) and contributed the winning penalty kick over Montreal in the Voyageurs Cup before he was unceremoniously booted off the team to Montreal on his Birthday (something I hope we will never have with the CPL).  I didn't get to watch him in Montreal so can't comment on that.

[dbailey62]

Seeing as he played all of five games for TFC scoring three goals in those five games and looking quote decent, I was a bit surprised when they dealt him to Mtl. His time with Mtl was poor no doubt. 

In regards to CPL, his experience alone would give him the nod in my books. Let's not pretend CPL will be anywhere close to MLS in level of quality. If the league was kicking off in 2018, signing Issey would be a no brainer. 

As I said above, I'd love to see Ottawa give him a shot to see what he can do at the USL level. He might surprise us. 

Edited January 15, 2018 by dbailey62
spelling

[Macksam]

13 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The big unanswered question for me is if they plan on having single entity? If they don't, and players signing from clubs overseas can negotiate with all 6 or 8 teams before putting pen to paper along with ex-MLS academy prospects (I suspect they would feature prominently) rather than only the team that claims their rights in the context of the league, competitive disparities beween teams based close to the GTA and Vancouver and the rest would be likely to emerge. One of the things that keeps the CFL relatively stable and equitable is that the combination of a relatively low hard cap, a huge oversupply of pro level American talent and a Canadian draft means that the Argos, Lions and Ticats don't get stacked in talent terms relative to the Roughriders. They would need a formula on how players and salary money get distributed that is similar to that in some way to be able to sustain the operation after the startup capital and initial euphoria starts to wear off or tensions would quickly build between the large and small markets, whose natural habitats would be D2 and D3/4 in the USSF's system. 

Basically all I heard is “we need single entity for the smaller markets to be sustainable....but we actually don’t need it if we copy the CFL’s system which isn’t single entity.” 

The CFL’s system is designed so the Argos and Lions can’t outspend the Roughriders? Lol, da fuck? Have you seen what the current state of the CFL actually looks like? 

I have seen some awful posts by BBTB but this one is something else.

Anyhow, all that is really required to alleviate your fears is a hard cap, nothing more. Having a Canadian draft and an oversupply of American talent aren’t factors that prevent certain clubs from outcompeting against others.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Macksam

[dbailey62]

Well, in respect to the CFL, in an overall sense, if in ten years we can have a CPL that:

... receives $40 million per year in tv money from TSN with most clubs in the black as a result (recently extended through 2021)

... averages 4.2 million viewers for its cup final with nearly 10 million tuning in at some point

... regularly draw in the range of 500k viewers for a league fixture and 1 million for the divisional finals

... averages > 24k attendance per regular season match

I think the CPL would be considered a roaring success. Even half that would be an absolutely incredible achievement. 

Don't get me wrong, the CFL has its problems too but per match, it numbers are quite reasonable when we compare it to La Liga (27k), Liga MX (26k), Seri A (24k) or even MLS (22k). 

All I'm saying is let's not be too quick to eat our young. 

 

 

 

 

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

4 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

The average salary will be in the $55-75K range.

At one point that's what was being claimed, but those are not the latest numbers, I've seen:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbymcmahon/2018/01/11/new-canadian-premier-league-names-its-first-commissioner-and-sets-kick-off-for-april-2019/#26e9882a330b

...Some months ago those close to the new league had floated a salary range of $48,000US to $80,000US. These numbers seem to be morphing downwards with an average salary of between $32,000US and $48,000US now being mentioned, with “some players” making six figures in Canadian dollars...

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[dbailey62]

That is realistic! If people come, those numbers can rise. Gotta be prudent. We don't need teams over extending right off the opening match. 

[BuzzAndSting]

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

At one point that's what was being claimed, but those are not the latest numbers, I've seen:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbymcmahon/2018/01/11/new-canadian-premier-league-names-its-first-commissioner-and-sets-kick-off-for-april-2019/#26e9882a330b

...Some months ago those close to the new league had floated a salary range of $48,000US to $80,000US. These numbers seem to be morphing downwards with an average salary of between $32,000US and $48,000US now being mentioned, with “some players” making six figures in Canadian dollars...

 

New article from the same author.

"That puts player salaries in the $1.12M to $1.5M range. Spread across a pool of 20 players that works out at an average salary and benefits cost of $56,000 to $75,000."

[1996]

6 hours ago, dbailey62 said:

Well, in respect to the CFL, in an overall sense, if in ten years we can have a CPL that:

... receives $40 million per year in tv money from TSN with most clubs in the black as a result (recently extended through 2021)

... averages 4.2 million viewers for its cup final with nearly 10 million tuning in at some point

... regularly draw in the range of 500k viewers for a league fixture and 1 million for the divisional finals

... averages > 24k attendance per regular season match

I think the CPL would be considered a roaring success. Even half that would be an absolutely incredible achievement. 

Don't get me wrong, the CFL has its problems too but per match, it numbers are quite reasonable when we compare it to La Liga (27k), Liga MX (26k), Seri A (24k) or even MLS (22k). 

All I'm saying is let's not be too quick to eat our young. 

 

 

 

 

 

How many home games per season will CPL teams play because in the future this will also be an indicator on how much revenue each team can make, more home games more money one would think. Moreover, comparing say MLS attendance average to say NHL attendance average is apples and oranges as I have seen some people in the media do a comparison of how good MLS attendance is, can’t compare really when in the NHL they play like over 40 home games to the MLS what 20 with cups thrown it, or comparing CFL average attendance to MLS or other soccer leagues around the world where in the CFL you play like what 9 home games compared to the almost 20 or so in the MLS and sometimes a lot more in these soccer leagues around the world, a little easier to sell say 9 home CFL dates to 20 Soccer home dates or easier to sell 20 home MLs  dates compared to over 40 for NHL or even like 80 home dates for MLB in baseball.

Edited January 15, 2018 by 1996

[dbailey62]

33 minutes ago, 1996 said:

How many home games per season will CPL teams play because in the future this will also be an indicator on how much revenue each team can make, more home games more money one would think. Moreover, comparing say MLS attendance average to say NHL attendance average is apples and oranges as I have seen some people in the media do a comparison of how good MLS attendance is, can’t compare really when in the NHL they play like over 40 home games to the MLS what 20 with cups thrown it, or comparing CFL average attendance to MLS or other soccer leagues around the world where in the CFL you play like what 9 home games compared to the almost 20 or so in the MLS and sometimes a lot more in these soccer leagues around the world, a little easier to sell say 9 home CFL dates to 20 Soccer home dates or easier to sell 20 home MLs  dates compared to over 40 for NHL or even like 80 home dates for MLB in baseball.

Of course it is and I've had this kind of discussions with friends who have declared MLS more popular than the NHL because of a higher average attendance not taking into account number of fixtures, facility capacity and the most important thing of all IMO, gross revenue.  

That said, whether people accept it or not, the CFL is the rarest of rare things, an all-Canadian franchise pro sports league and it is surviving reasonably well. Let's not knock its success as, on a national basis, soccer can only dream of matching it's success at this point in time. 

In my post though, more important than attendances are the tv numbers and the tv contract if any. CPL won't be making money from TV. They may end up having to buy time and subsidize the production costs ... or totally self-produce and go with an online model with, perhaps, a handful of games on broadcast television via Sportsnet or CBC. Canadian content is still very important to the broadcasters. 

Hopefully, one day, it can be a source of revenue but initially at least, the CPL will need paying bums in seats! I can certainly envision some markets struggling and owners getting frozen tootsies. I hope all are going in with their eyes wide open!

 

 

[dbailey62]

Sorry, in regards to number of home games, in an eight team league, do we go with a one division balanced schedule of two home and two away versus all seven teams for a 28 game schedule/14 home games? 

I'd say yes!

The thought of two four team conferences and playing the home conference rivals six times in a season (3H/3A) while playing the other conference clubs only twice (1H/1A) makes me queezy although it would make for a 26 game schedule. 

I'd vote no!

Sorry folks. I think we need a new thread to discuss business scenarios. This isn't the thread for it. I got carried away.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2018 by dbailey62

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

1 hour ago, BuzzAndSting said:

New article from the same author.

"That puts player salaries in the $1.12M to $1.5M range. Spread across a pool of 20 players that works out at an average salary and benefits cost of $56,000 to $75,000."

Think you need to read that article more carefully to see what it is about. He is "spitballing" based on the 500k investment over 10 years statement and some of his assumptions at how that figure was arrived at (my money is on because it grabs your attention as part of a sound byte and that it doesn't necessarily bear any real correlation to their business plan any more than Beckham ever having a genuine chance of making 250 million with the Galaxy did) could be wrong. My understanding is that the 32 to 48k set of figures in the other article came from Ian Clanachan in one of his recent interviews.

Edited January 15, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[BuzzAndSting]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Think you need to read that article more carefully to see what it is about. He is "spitballing" based on the 500k investment over 10 years statement and some of his assumptions at how that figure was arrived at (my money is on because it grabs your attention as part of a sound byte and that it doesn't necessarily bear any real correlation to their business plan any more than Beckham ever having a genuine chance of making 250 million with the Galaxy did) could be wrong. My understanding is that the 32 to 48k set of figures in the other article came from Ian Clanachan in one of his recent interviews.

No, don’t need to read it more carefully. I agree with MacMahon and the way he arrived at the second set of figures, it makes sense. Thanks for the advice though.

Edited January 15, 2018 by BuzzAndSting

[Rheo]

8 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

No, don’t need to read it more carefully. I agree with MacMahon and the way he arrived at the second set of figures, it makes sense. Thanks for the advice though.

Doesn't fit his narrative for this point so make sure to note it's spitballing lol

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

38 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

No, don’t need to read it more carefully. I agree with MacMahon and the way he arrived at the second set of figures, it makes sense. Thanks for the advice though.

So you ignore the number that appears to have actually come from Ian Clanachan because you prefer the sound of 56 to 75k and after that has become clear I'm the one with a "narrative"? Sure whatever you say. I was actually encouraged by the 32 to 48k figure like dbailey62 above, maybe because we were both around for things like Justin Fashanu's trip to the pressbox from the field of play at Centennial Stadium to attack Mario Di Bartolomeo back in the original CSL era (luckily for the league prez the door was locked from the inside). A national pro league isn't just an abstract ideal to fantasize about once you have actually watched one unfold and fail.

Edited January 15, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[Complete Homer]

16 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So you ignore the number that appears to have actually come from Ian Clanachan because you prefer the sound of 56 to 75k and after that has become clear I'm the one with a "narrative"? Sure whatever you say. I was actually encouraged by the 32 to 48k figure like dbailey62 above, maybe because we were both around for things like Justin Fashanu's trip to the pressbox from the field of play at Centennial Stadium to attack Mario Di Bartolomeo back in the original CSL era (luckily for the league prez the door was locked from the inside). A national pro league isn't just an abstract ideal to fantasize about once you have actually watched one unfold and fail.

a ) The 32k to 48k USD appears to have been from Steve Milton's 40k to 60k CAD quote, which you previously dismissed as an illegitimate source. You have no evidence that the 32-48k number comes straight from the commissioner, and it's a bit ironic that you're holding on to this number so strongly when McMahon never indicated it was from the league and you'd previously argued that Milton's word didn't mean much to you

b ) On what planet would McMahon receive salaries from the league and then turn around the next week and say "nah, those numbers I just got directly from the league are probably wrong, I'm going to publish guesstimates with some back of the napkin math"

What is more plausible is that McMahon was a little bit skeptical about to 40-60 thousand number from Milton, decided to do his own estimate, and came out with the 56 to 75k number...which is probably actually pretty close to the 40k to 60k number when you drop the "benefits" side of it

Edited January 15, 2018 by Complete Homer

[BuzzAndSting]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So you ignore the number that appears to have actually come from Ian Clanachan because you prefer the sound of 56 to 75k and after that has become clear I'm the one with a "narrative"? Sure whatever you say. I was actually encouraged by the 32 to 48k figure like dbailey62 above, maybe because we were both around for things like Justin Fashanu's trip to the pressbox from the field of play at Centennial Stadium to attack Mario Di Bartolomeo back in the original CSL era. A national pro league isn't just an abstract ideal to fantasize about once you have actually watched one unfold and fail.

First off, the CPL commissioner is David Clanachan, not Ian Clanachan.

Second, you don't know if I watched the original CSL so don't use that as some marker that makes you more qualified to speculate or not. 

Third, Bobby MacMahon is an experienced soccer writer who is way more qualified to speculate than you are and when he states that he believe salaries will be in the $56-75K range I believe him.

Fourth, the original article and all your quotes are in USD. The second article and the range I quoted are in CAD. So the real discrepancy is $38-58K versus $56-75K using MacMahon's exchange rate of 1.2.

Fifth, the numbers from the first article are pure speculation with no reference to where they came form, only "those close to the new league." On top of that they could be outdate considering the original figures used to derive the second set of numbers comes from the CPL directly with reference and clarification. 

Lastly, as a someone who has studied economics extensively and has run a million dollar company for many, many years I agree with methodology and basis for range in the second article. 

[baulderdash77]

Every estimate ends up being pretty close and we’re splitting hairs a bit.  Most estimates are putting average salaries in the 50k range.  Some are above, some below but that’s more or less it maybe each team has a couple players making six figures.  

Do we have to all be so pedantic about the details beyond that level? 

 

 

[Gian-Luca]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So you ignore the number that appears to have actually come from Ian Clanachan because you prefer the sound of 56 to 75k and after that has become clear I'm the one with a "narrative"? Sure whatever you say. I was actually encouraged by the 32 to 48k figure like dbailey62 above, maybe because we were both around for things like Justin Fashanu's trip to the pressbox from the field of play at Centennial Stadium to attack Mario Di Bartolomeo back in the original CSL era (luckily for the league prez the door was locked from the inside). A national pro league isn't just an abstract ideal to fantasize about once you have actually watched one unfold and fail.

I wasn't at that game but I remember that as well!

[dbailey62]

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So you ignore the number that appears to have actually come from Ian Clanachan because you prefer the sound of 56 to 75k and after that has become clear I'm the one with a "narrative"? Sure whatever you say. I was actually encouraged by the 32 to 48k figure like dbailey62 above, maybe because we were both around for things like Justin Fashanu's trip to the pressbox from the field of play at Centennial Stadium to attack Mario Di Bartolomeo back in the original CSL era (luckily for the league prez the door was locked from the inside). A national pro league isn't just an abstract ideal to fantasize about once you have actually watched one unfold and fail.

Oh wasn't that something. I was sitting at the base of the stairs to the press box and saw the door slam shut. 

For those not in on the story, Justin Fashanu was an openly gay player which opened him up to a lot of abuse and on occasion he got tired of it and on this occasion, at Centennial Park in Etobicoke, as the Blizzard hosted the Hamilton Steelers (the team owned by Mario DeBartolomeo), he elbowed a defender in the schnoz. He got him good. 

He was red carded and as he started to make the trek to the dressing room, Mario started screaming at him from the press box calling Justin "f-ck-ng f-gg-t" and so on. Justin stopped his walk, looked up at the press box and changed direction at which point I said "uh oh". He clambered up into the stands and jogged up the stairs at which point the door slammed shut. Justin tried to get in and peered in through the glass. 

Later, when asked just why he went up there, Justin said something to the effect of "I just wanted to tell him to stop using that kind of language as there were lots of kids in the stands."

.... and yes, Mario was league President. It was very, very shabby behaviour. Great story though. 

 

[CNMNTPERUELIGIBLE]

13 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

hat works out at an average salary and benefits cost of $56,000 to $75,000."

Sounds better as this may boost the quality of players they are willing to invest and bring in, into the league at an attempt to remove the amateurish stigma the seems to be developing in a lot of corners, lmao... Let's wait and see......