Canadian Premier League

[rob.notenboom]

I think before you can walk, you need to learn to crawl. Not long ago we were just hoping for a few more pro teams so more Canadians could play, and now we're talking pro/rel. As much as I'd love to see it, and absolutely pro/rel could be part of the long term vision, I'm most concerned with a league that's going to initially survive. 

[SuperCanuck]

6 hours ago, Coramoor said:

well I'm not counting Mexico as I stated and if you want to consider their system a true representation of pro/rel then good luck with that, especially with the buying and relocating of teams thing.

What definition of North America are you using. NAFU is 3 countries, NAFTA is 3 countries, North America is a continent only to some people in the world, others consider North and South America one continent. Central America has their own EU style parliament, common market and court system. It's certainly a grey area but adding the world Anglo to North American seems annoying but if necessary I can say that to make clear that I'm removing Mexico from the point of conversation. It's a very common colloquialism within the US and Canadian sports markets to draw the distinction between our two countries and the rest of the world by using the phrase, North American.

The definition I would use for North America would be one of the two correct ones.  There's North America, which is everything from Canada to Panama including the Caribbean, and there's Continental North America which would exclude island countries.

North America and South America comprise The Americas, AKA the New World.  Using trade pacts and shared court systems to define a geographical entity is ludicrous.

Other very common sports colloquialisms in Canada and the US include things like "thus far" and "intestinal fortitude" but who would actually talk like that in real life?

[mtlsab]

On 19/2/2016 at 11:05 AM, Oranje said:

I think you're onto something but "Div 3" is essentially established already and should only need some minor tweaking (I'd assume). I am drawing some parallels from the Regionalliga in Germany, where divisions are based on locations and teams are promoted into the 3.Liga which is nation-wide.

Imagine, each city and surrounding area is a division in Div 3. They gain promotion into a "Regionalliga" in west, central, ON/QC and Atlantic. Each year top 4 teams have a playoff and top team is automatically promoted, runner-up has a playoff vs 2nd last in the CPL.

I don't think there is a question about if it is possible, it's whether or not it is viable. Div 3 is basically existing in the Metro areas, so it's just figuring out a "Regionalliga" and CPL.

I think we should have a D2 between theCPL and the provincial leagues, like a division divided in 4 regions (West, Centre-west, centre-east, east) so it would reduce the travel expenses and at the end of the season, there will be a play off with the 1st team of each region to go to CPL and a play off between the lower one to go in the provincial leagues

[toontownman]

16 hours ago, rob.notenboom said:

First time in my knowledge that Regina is equated with being back on track. 

Its a circular trap track that goes nowhere. 

[Oranje]

3 hours ago, mtlsab said:

I think we should have a D2 between theCPL and the provincial leagues, like a division divided in 4 regions (West, Centre-west, centre-east, east) so it would reduce the travel expenses and at the end of the season, there will be a play off with the 1st team of each region to go to CPL and a play off between the lower one to go in the provincial leagues

   On February 19, 2016 at 9:05 AM,  Oranje said: 

I think you're onto something but "Div 3" is essentially established already and should only need some minor tweaking (I'd assume). I am drawing some parallels from the Regionalliga in Germany, where divisions are based on locations and teams are promoted into the 3.Liga which is nation-wide.

Imagine, each city and surrounding area is a division in Div 3. They gain promotion into a "Regionalliga" in west, central, ON/QC and Atlantic. Each year top 4 teams have a playoff and top team is automatically promoted, runner-up has a playoff vs 2nd last in the CPL.

I don't think there is a question about if it is possible, it's whether or not it is viable. Div 3 is basically existing in the Metro areas, so it's just figuring out a "Regionalliga" and CPL.

 

Pretty sure thats exactly what I said in that second paragraph, the "Regionalliga" that I am referring to is a Div 2

[One American]

I get why the CSA and Canadian would like their own league. But where are all these Canadian players going to come from? I've 75 percent Canadian content. Is that like 140 players over 8 teams or something like that? Are they just going to raid the MLS team's academies? Bring in a bunch of guys riding pine in the Slovak second division? Is Russell Tiebert going to leave a better league to play in a new enterprise?

 

Just trying to get my head around where they are going to get enough quality players.

[Blue and White Army]

D3 = Provincial leagues (League1 Ontario, La Première ligue de Soccer du Québec)

D4 = metro leagues (VMSL, FVSL, VISL, etc.)

[baulderdash77]

Our total player pool is 313 pro players around the world plus 882 CIS players plus 128 NCAA players.

Of the pro players that we have I figure only about 10% of them would be on a clearly higher salary than the CPL range of 40-100 CAD.  Many are toiling around at a lower level somewhere hoping for a break.

I don't think it will be that hard to find 108 existing domestics to come home and play for us. Plus with 250 graduating college seniors per year if 5% of them move to the CPL then that's 13 players every year (enough for a 2 round draft I'd say).

We do have the talent pool to support a 6-8 team D1 league.

 

[baulderdash77]

By the way.  CIS football has 1,215 players in it and they end up with about 40 players drafted each year to the CFL.  Canadians certainly pay good money to watch many ex CIS players in the CFL.

So a 2 or 3 round CPL draft drawing from 1,000 Canadian college players (and having 12-15 signed each year) seems quite viable as far as bringing on talent from that route as well as the academy route.

 I wouldn't be surprised for a minute if that doesn't happen.  It would be a good media event for TSN as well.

 

[Blue and White Army]

L1O, PLSQ and BC leagues will also contribute some talent.

[mtlsab]

I don't think a draft is good for a Canadian league since it kills the purpose of an Academy. I think that the semi-pro teams should make parterships with the universities and high schools to get contracts, so if a CPL teams recruit a player, they pay at the semi-pro club!

[Blue and White Army]

Yes, drafts are of limited use when there's competition from other leagues. If you draft a player and he opts to sign in Europe, or for a USL/NASL/MLS club, you've wasted your draft pick.

Drafts work best for insular USA sports leagues.

[mtlsab]

29 minutes ago, Blue and White Army said:

Yes, drafts are of limited use when there's competition from other leagues. If you draft a player and he opts to sign in Europe, or for a USL/NASL/MLS club, you've wasted your draft pick.

Drafts work best for insular USA sports leagues.

that's right, in a Candian pyramid, it would be useless since the players can be recruited by foreign clubs, si it's better if they're under contracts with semi-pro clubs!

[nolbertos]

Don't if you guys know but supposedly, the CFL teams want to get rid of the Canadian player quota as its hurting the league's ability to get more American quality and possibly cheaper players than their Canadian counterparts. Kinda runs against the argument that the CFL owners want to only play Canadian kids in a Canadian league.  Remember the CPL is just another business idea for the CFL owners to fill in their stadiums when Football season is over.  I seriously doubt any of these owners will build SSS outta there own pockets.  And I wouldn't be surprised if they try to force the CSA to go down in the Canadian quota at some point down the road.  There are far quantity wise and bargain wise American players to recruit from then in Canada and in the end, people want a winning team, moreso than just all Canadians playing, just adk TFC, how that worked out in the first 2-3 years.  Careful what you wish for if you want CFL money cuz in the end, we'll back to a USL quality league in name only called CPL.

[baulderdash77]

L1O, the PQSL and other leagues will also be a valuable source of talent.

I really do think that NCAA and CIS will be major sources of talent though and like the US you can have a college development path as well as an academy development path (and they're not mutually exclusive).  The CIS probably is a very underdeveloped source of talent.

A draft would just formalize a concrete development path to being a professional.   Yes players will always have the choice of playing in Europe or MLS but something like a CPL draft that provides a solid and consistent route to a professional contract will make things clearer.

Right now there is no easily definable path to a pro contract in Canada and there's so many conflicting and muddy pathways thy parents don't know what to do.  

[MtlMario]

5 hours ago, nolbertos said:

Don't if you guys know but supposedly, the CFL teams want to get rid of the Canadian player quota as its hurting the league's ability to get more American quality and possibly cheaper players than their Canadian counterparts. Kinda runs against the argument that the CFL owners want to only play Canadian kids in a Canadian league.  Remember the CPL is just another business idea for the CFL owners to fill in their stadiums when Football season is over.  I seriously doubt any of these owners will build SSS outta there own pockets.  And I wouldn't be surprised if they try to force the CSA to go down in the Canadian quota at some point down the road.  There are far quantity wise and bargain wise American players to recruit from then in Canada and in the end, people want a winning team, moreso than just all Canadians playing, just adk TFC, how that worked out in the first 2-3 years.  Careful what you wish for if you want CFL money cuz in the end, we'll back to a USL quality league in name only called CPL.

So we just keep taking "quality wise & bargain wise American players" in the CPL? Isn't the whole point of this league to develop CDN players? Might just as well stay in USL, NASL, MLS leagues, why bother.

[Unnamed Trialist]

8 hours ago, mtlsab said:

that's right, in a Candian pyramid, it would be useless since the players can be recruited by foreign clubs, si it's better if they're under contracts with semi-pro clubs!

The one good thing about drafts is that is makes pro clubs pay attention to the talent at the University level. You could also set up a sort of Canadian combine, which is a nice showcase. As could be PDL, though the timing is not exactly right (it is mid-season, not pre-season, unlike your NBA summer leagues). 

Right now, as this is conceived, the step from a CPL team to a USL 2nd team is too small, and we are lacking a full season league below it to work as a decent 2nd level for CPL young talent. PDL is designed to give US college players more playing time when out of school, but is too limited to grow talent.

[baulderdash77]

I think the CPL will initially operate at around an NASL/USL level.  The wages will be slightly higher but the level should be roughly equivalent to MLS bench players.

I envision that they will repatriate a large swath of Canadian talent abroad to fill the rosters but over time it will evolve to be place that the truly elite L1O, PQSL, CIS and NCAA players can concentrate and play professionally.  Between those sources there's probably 1,500-2,000 players that are dedicated high level athletes and we want to concentrate the top 100-150 of them all in one place as a entertainment and development of Canadian soccer.

For sure a part of the plan of the league, like most smaller leagues in the world, will be to develop and transfer players to big clubs.  But isn't that what everyone wants?

Eventually that 100-150 CPL players plus our couple dozen MLS players and another dozen or so high level European players will be the core of our talent pool.  The concentration of that talent from a style perspective will be the springboard for future World Cup aspirations.

There will no longer be scraping together of MNT rosters from Unattached FC or wondering who our next RB or keeper is going to be.  There will be at least 5-6 starting or regular players in the CPL at every position to provide that backbone depth that we can all see each week in TV.

[nolbertos]

3 hours ago, MtlMario said:

So we just keep taking "quality wise & bargain wise American players" in the CPL? Isn't the whole point of this league to develop CDN players? Might just as well stay in USL, NASL, MLS leagues, why bother.

The whole point in the league is to develop Canadian players, but the quota will set a bar of hoe much domestic talent will be per team.  If its all Canadian and the quality is worse than USL, then don't expect much paying spectators.  In the end, all teams want a winning team and right now there are more Americans that have a higher level of playing than here.  The USL or NASL is where the levels at.  It'll take years to get the league's quality up to where we start qualifying consistently to the Hex at least.  I envision a CPL, if it does survive to just be a Div 3 type league with maybe NASL/USL being Div 2 (At some point thry both will absorb one another) and Canadian MLS teams being Div 1. The CSA can call it Div. 1 if they want, but it won't match MLS quality anytime soon. The CPL will be feeder teams to MLS and bottom European leagues.

[rob.notenboom]

19 hours ago, toontownman said:

Its a circular trap track that goes nowhere. 

Boo!

[michaeltfc91]

I would expect the quality to be below USL Pro / NASL for the first season, those are quality leagues. If a 26 player roster on 8 teams has 50% CDN quota (which is what it should be, definitely not 75%) you need 104 Canadians. I'm sure the better Canadians in the league will come from NASL / USL Pro then the top semi pro players in Ontario Ligue 1, PQSL and BC League would play. The rest would come from 2nd / 3rd division European Leagues. We would hit a 50% Canadian quota for sure.

If the league sustains, I am sure in 5 years it will become USL Pro / NASL level, you would get some of the older Canadians in MLS come maybe or each team can get a designated player and get a good Canadian overseas (David Edgar / Simeon Jackson). Players like that need to be the face of the league in a few years

[Bison44]

The face of the league needs to be the young guys that will start to shine with playing time.  Irving, Alderson, Aparcio, Bekker Beckie, Levis etc, guys like that.  This league should be a great place for those type of fringe MLS, NASL and NCAA/CIS grads to get the PT they need and hopefully realize their potential.  Imagine 8 young CDN keepers actually getting a full season of playing time.  Somebody will step up like Onstad did from the old league.  

[baulderdash77]

It's also going to draw lots of the Ben Fisk, Sam Piette, Issy Nakajima-Farran , Tosaint Ricketts type of players.  Guys who are at D2-D4 leagues in Europe who don't have really good domestic opportunities because of the economics against Canadians in MLS and NASL.  There's a very large number of Canadians who that applies to who are quality players but the lack of domestic opportunities squeeze them out.

 

 

[Macksam]

16 hours ago, nolbertos said:

Don't if you guys know but supposedly, the CFL teams want to get rid of the Canadian player quota as its hurting the league's ability to get more American quality and possibly cheaper players than their Canadian counterparts. Kinda runs against the argument that the CFL owners want to only play Canadian kids in a Canadian league.  Remember the CPL is just another business idea for the CFL owners to fill in their stadiums when Football season is over.  I seriously doubt any of these owners will build SSS outta there own pockets.  And I wouldn't be surprised if they try to force the CSA to go down in the Canadian quota at some point down the road.  There are far quantity wise and bargain wise American players to recruit from then in Canada and in the end, people want a winning team, moreso than just all Canadians playing, just adk TFC, how that worked out in the first 2-3 years.  Careful what you wish for if you want CFL money cuz in the end, we'll back to a USL quality league in name only called CPL.

Oh Lord....

Sure, I could see the CFL owners getting rid of the quota for their football teams. However, football is the USA's bread and butter when it comes to sports. They produce the best players. That isn't even remotely the case for soccer.

People want a winning team? Yes. However, if all the teams play by the same roster rules, then they would have to win the league with Canadian players. The only reason CPL owners will try to force down the quota for their soccer teams is when big money starts to roll in (at which point, I wouldn't have an issue with it anyhow) and they want to recruit more South Americans, not to bring in crappy American college boys.

Why would the owners build SSSs? The whole reason this is coming about is because these owners have new stadia ready to be used.

Yeah, it will be USL quality initially. It will improve over time.

[Gordon]

17 hours ago, nolbertos said:

Don't if you guys know but supposedly, the CFL teams want to get rid of the Canadian player quota as its hurting the league's ability to get more American quality and possibly cheaper players than their Canadian counterparts. Kinda runs against the argument that the CFL owners want to only play Canadian kids in a Canadian league.  Remember the CPL is just another business idea for the CFL owners to fill in their stadiums when Football season is over.  I seriously doubt any of these owners will build SSS outta there own pockets.  And I wouldn't be surprised if they try to force the CSA to go down in the Canadian quota at some point down the road.  There are far quantity wise and bargain wise American players to recruit from then in Canada and in the end, people want a winning team, moreso than just all Canadians playing, just adk TFC, how that worked out in the first 2-3 years.  Careful what you wish for if you want CFL money cuz in the end, we'll back to a USL quality league in name only called CPL.

Link to any evidence of this?