Canadian Premier League

[nolbertos]

3 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

Which professional team is that then?

It sounds like your saying that players can only come from the 3 MLS academies, them being the only 6-7 year old professional teams we have.

Interesting assertion and I'm glad you don't let the facts get in the way.   In 2014 371 of 570 MLS players played in NCAA and were drafted.  Of those 371 players 208 of them played in a club setup (US PDL was the most popular).

The actual facts is that most MLS players used the NCAA to get to the pros and the bulk of the USMNT are former draftees.  17 of their most recent 23 man roster were drafted.

The other fact is that we don't have defined development pathway for Canadian players.  There is literally no structured way to become a pro in Canada.  The US has a path- NCAA + MLS draft and it churns out 50-75 players per year.

But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way right?

I honestly think the NCAA draft will become redundant over the long term.  Of those players you stated, how many of then are first team regulars or on the bench?? I believe Dallas FC last year showed what fruits their academy is bringing them when about half their squad was brought up through their academy and yielded great results.  The academies will be the way to a pro career (and being a first team regular), not going to CIS or NCAA.  The only way the Uni players get a shot at being pros is by auditioning for the USL / CPL farm teams to see if they can cut it at that level at least.  Looking at the past 3 drafts for our Canadian teams, particularly the Caps, I believe they drafted 9 or 10 over the last 5 years and only 2 are still playing on the first team, Manneh and Parker.  Mattocks and Hurtado had their chances and now are probably gonna flourish at USL levels in the future or lower division in foreign leagues.  This is compared to the academy that is now starting to bear fruit and the players have shown more willingness to succeed like Bustos, Froese, Adekugbe and to a lesser extent Tiebert. 

[baulderdash77]

The issue in Canada, much more than the US is the size and speed of the funnel.

The 3 MLS academies capture about 300 high performing youth players in their academy funnel.  From that maybe 2 or 3 sign contracts each year.  That's all of Canada!

There just isn't enough academy spots for all the high potential kids.  Also they set their academy in at 14 years old.  Many kids that age are at different stages of development.  The funnel is going to overflow and right now the overflow goes primarily to 1). NCAA and 2) CIS

That's why there's about 60 kids playing for the Senior MLS academies and 1,000 playing in university .  Are the 60 MLS players better in average?  Probably.  

But of the 1000 college players there will be standouts and late bloomers that will get better.  See Cyle Larin and Richie Layrea among others.  Plus the vast majority of MLS academy players don't get a senior contract.

The talent funnel is just too narrow to process the volume of kids and that's why a draft to structure the funnel is worth it.

[Oranje]

4 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

The issue in Canada, much more than the US is the size and speed of the funnel.

The 3 MLS academies capture about 300 high performing youth players in their academy funnel.  From that maybe 2 or 3 sign contracts each year.  That's all of Canada!

There just isn't enough academy spots for all the high potential kids.  Also they set their academy in at 14 years old.  Many kids that age are at different stages of development.  The funnel is going to overflow and right now the overflow goes primarily to 1). NCAA and 2) CIS

That's why there's about 60 kids playing for the Senior MLS academies and 1,000 playing in university .  Are the 60 MLS players better in average?  Probably.  

But of the 1000 college players there will be standouts and late bloomers that will get better.  See Cyle Larin and Richie Layrea among others.  Plus the vast majority of MLS academy players don't get a senior contract.

The talent funnel is just too narrow to process the volume of kids and that's why a draft to structure the funnel is worth it.

Why not just sign the kids out of the CIS/NCAA? Draft is just a formality to keep leverage with clubs. A draft is limited to a single league so a player who may be a 2nd round MLS skill level needs to decide if they opt out of the MLS and hope they are picked in the CPL? Wouldn't you want to remove any limitations for a Canadian kid to play professional soccer rather than imposing more through adding another draft? If the clubs signed the kid out of the CIS and they were good enough to elect for the MLS draft, they can be transferred after.

[Blackdude]

2 hours ago, Oranje said:

Why not just sign the kids out of the CIS/NCAA? Draft is just a formality to keep leverage with clubs. A draft is limited to a single league so a player who may be a 2nd round MLS skill level needs to decide if they opt out of the MLS and hope they are picked in the CPL? Wouldn't you want to remove any limitations for a Canadian kid to play professional soccer rather than imposing more through adding another draft? If the clubs signed the kid out of the CIS and they were good enough to elect for the MLS draft, they can be transferred after.

I'm more confused by what you're saying. If a club signed the player, why would MLS pay a transfer fee for that player? A draft doesn't mean that the player is signed. I would understand if you say that player X doesn't want to play for team Y for reason XYZ, and that's why a draft is bad. But you're mentioning something about MLS and MLS had nothing to do with a CPL draft except maybe that guys like Larin, Bekker and Layrea who were highly touted would have dropped a lot because they had a pretty good shot to play in MLS. But the other Canadian players would probably get drafted high because they probably don't have a contract lined up. Look at the CFL draft. When you have a guy like Laurent Duvernay-Tardif or Vaughn Martin or even David Foucault who had good odds of making an NFL team, their CFL draft stock plummeted because teams wanted a player who could help them now. 

[Oranje]

48 minutes ago, Blackdude said:

I'm more confused by what you're saying. If a club signed the player, why would MLS pay a transfer fee for that player? A draft doesn't mean that the player is signed. I would understand if you say that player X doesn't want to play for team Y for reason XYZ, and that's why a draft is bad. But you're mentioning something about MLS and MLS had nothing to do with a CPL draft except maybe that guys like Larin, Bekker and Layrea who were highly touted would have dropped a lot because they had a pretty good shot to play in MLS. But the other Canadian players would probably get drafted high because they probably don't have a contract lined up. Look at the CFL draft. When you have a guy like Laurent Duvernay-Tardif or Vaughn Martin or even David Foucault who had good odds of making an NFL team, their CFL draft stock plummeted because teams wanted a player who could help them now. 

I am referring to the CPL signing a CIS player rather than opting for the MLS draft (if that has actually ever occurred) or having a CIS draft. If an MLS team wanted a CIS player who's signed with a CPL team, they'd pay a transfer fee for said player or on a free once the contract ends. I feel like a CIS draft would quickly become obsolete much like the last rounds of the MLS draft have become.

[Blackdude]

1 hour ago, Oranje said:

I am referring to the CPL signing a CIS player rather than opting for the MLS draft (if that has actually ever occurred) or having a CIS draft. If an MLS team wanted a CIS player who's signed with a CPL team, they'd pay a transfer fee for said player or on a free once the contract ends. I feel like a CIS draft would quickly become obsolete much like the last rounds of the MLS draft have become.

CIS players can't go through the MLS SuperDraft anyways. Still, MLS teams wouldn't pay a transfer fee for a CPL player. It would be too small of a league for an MLS club to spend the kind of money anyways.  I expect that it would be something like the CFL draft where you can draft CIS and NCAA players if there is a draft. 

[nolbertos]

I honestly think a draft is useless for the CPL using the CIS.  Just imagine if say the top 3 CIS players have a shot at USL / MLS contracts.  Would say CPL teams sign that player knowing they have no intention of playing in the league unless their tryout for an MLS contract goes south?? Right now, most players that enter MLS through the NCAA aren't guaranteed starting positions, so they bail on the MLS teams and try for Europe.  The team maintains only there MLS rights, if they ever rejoin MLS.  The same can be said for CIS players that won't sign for a CPL team. The CPL team gets there rights of that player decides to play in the league.  The only way the CPL will make money transfers and sell them to MLS teams or lower European teams is having there own academy pyramid.  I think it's a must nowadays to have a U-5 to U-17 league teams and the lucky few make it to the CPL team and then aspire to MLS or Europe, but the CIS route will only be used if you think your career in futbol won't pan out and want a scholarship to pay for your schooling. 

[Unnamed Trialist]

This thread is getting better, must be the spring air. 

Just so I don't have to do the research, who are the best players right now with a CIS background, and what was their route to success? I am thinking about Levis at Whitecaps. 

I know of other players who were already in pro structures then went to a CDN university and played (Srdjan Djekanovic, who was at Whitecaps and had played in Serbia), I even know of a foreigner who played a year CIS who was already semi-pro then was signed by an NCAA team while doing a Master and went to the MLS combine (Alex Isern, from Barcelona), but not of players who rose through CIS ranks into a solid pro career.

[nolbertos]

8 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

This thread is getting better, must be the spring air. 

Just so I don't have to do the research, who are the best players right now with a CIS background, and what was their route to success? I am thinking about Levis at Whitecaps. 

I know of other players who were already in pro structures then went to a CDN university and played (Srdjan Djekanovic, who was at Whitecaps and had played in Serbia), I even know of a foreigner who played a year CIS who was already semi-pro then was signed by an NCAA team while doing a Master and went to the MLS combine (Alex Isern, from Barcelona), but not of players who rose through CIS ranks into a solid pro career.

You forgot about your countryman  Victor Blasco.  He played in UVic?? For 2 seasons and was gonna play at SFU before Alan Koch moved on up and convinced Blasco to try out.  Blasco is a foreigner though and was a product of La Masia.

[Blue and White Army]

10 hours ago, Blackdude said:

CIS players can't go through the MLS SuperDraft anyways. 

Because of low player quality, or because of some systemic barrier that I'm not aware of?

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, nolbertos said:

You forgot about your countryman  Victor Blasco.  He played in UVic?? For 2 seasons and was gonna play at SFU before Alan Koch moved on up and convinced Blasco to try out.  Blasco is a foreigner though and was a product of La Masia.

You know Victor was just at La Masia a short time, he is from Mallorca. Considering he was teaming up well with the other "stars" of the VWII last year, isn't it odd he has not been in the mix at all for the first team's preseaon? Any reason for that?

But I would like to know what our highest rated ex-CIS now (or once) pro players are.

 

[Levi Oakey]

I would suggest Justin Springer. Anchored K-W United's backline for the PDL Championship. Doesn't currently have any pro prospects as far as I know. He is the type of player the CanPL will be targeting. Justin Maheu and Jarek Whiteman are also good shouts.

[soccerfromsauga]

30 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

But I would like to know what our highest rated ex-CIS now (or once) pro players are.

 

Tyson Farago (U of Winnipeg), Jamar Dixon (St. FX), and Charlie Trafford (York) are all CIS alumni that have recently received CanMNT call-ups. 

[soccerfromsauga]

28 minutes ago, Levi Oakey said:

I would suggest Justin Springer. Anchored K-W United's backline for the PDL Championship. Doesn't currently have any pro prospects as far as I know. He is the type of player the CanPL will be targeting. Justin Maheu and Jarek Whiteman are also good shouts.

I'd throw Cam Hundal (CIS MVP), J. Lao, and S. Rajkovic (he had a trial with Ottawa Fury last year) in that mix as well.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Thanks guys, this would actually be a good thread, CIS Gone Pro, the Voyageur version of Girls Gone Wild.

Thinking of which, if we did the women it would be different I think.

[Blue and White Army]

Some people are arguing that CIS isn't a development path; instead, it's often a place for (often older) players who have fallen through the cracks to go.

Would CanPL clubs likely scoop up most of this talent (earlier in time) in their academies? And if so, would CIS soccer need to shift to being a geniune development path for 18- to 22-year-old players, rather than featuring numerous former failed pros hanging around for their ninth year of university?

[ted]

On 2016-02-28 at 8:21 AM, baulderdash77 said:

It sounds like your saying that players can only come from the 3 MLS academies, them being the only 6-7 year old professional teams we have.

Interesting assertion and I'm glad you don't let the facts get in the way. ..

But hey, let's not let the facts get in the way right?

 

Straw man much?  I said no such thing. Players must come from anywhere. They must be free to sign with the team that will give them the best raining and experience that they can get.

 

If you, for one millisecond, believe that CIS teams are as good as NCAA teams there is no point reading anything further you write. It simply is not so. CIS teams are full of kids who could not get onto NCAA teams.

 

As for you so-called "facts" it should be noted that using past statistics as predictors or future events is a gamble. The reason so many NCAA players have made it to MLS is because of several reasons that have nothing to do with the innate "quality" of NCAA training and coaching.  The two biggest reasons are: lack of alternatives (no minor pro leagues), and; institutional inertia (used for years in other sports so it must be good). 

 

There is simply no benefit to a draft system except the control of the labour pool. If you support the continued slavery of players then by all means, use the draft.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

Can't we all just get along???   God we could use some real news to calm the infighting.  Throw us some red meat already Monty.  

[rob.notenboom]

12 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

Can't we all just get along???   God we could use some real news to calm the infighting.  Throw us some red meat already Monty.  

Which city council is meeting today. Should provide something. 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

4 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

Which city council is meeting today. Should provide something. 

Sorry, who is meeting?  

[Oranje]

39 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

Which city council is meeting today. Should provide something.

Is that for the West/prairie HPL?

[rob.notenboom]

21 minutes ago, Oranje said:

Is that for the West/prairie HPL?

 

1 hour ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

Sorry, who is meeting?  

Sorry gents. I was just being a goof. Since our last big news came from a Hamilton city council meeting and a local paper, was using it for fun. 

 

Next CanPL will be from Matthew writing for the Moose Jaw Times-Herald. 

[baulderdash77]

On 2/29/2016 at 4:08 PM, ted said:

 

I'm not going to keep getting into it with you Ted.  Let's just agree to disagree.  I wasn't creating a straw man, I was just responding to your assertions with facts.

I am of the belief that there is a large untapped pool of Canadian talent in the NCAA and CIS and that a draft would be a great way to structure a development pathway to more professionals.  I'm talking 12-16 pro contracts out of 500 Juniors and Seniors in the NCAA and CIS who are Canadian.

You disagree and thing that there isn't a lot of talent there and/or you don't like the idea of a draft philosophically.  I get it and I'm not going to argue my point of view with yours anymore.  

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

13 hours ago, baulderdash77 said:

I am of the belief that there is a large untapped pool of Canadian talent in the NCAA and CIS and that a draft would be a great way to structure a development pathway to more professionals..

How often do you watch CIS soccer games?

[Havoc88]

On 2016-02-29 at 2:39 AM, Unnamed Trialist said:

This thread is getting better, must be the spring air. 

Just so I don't have to do the research, who are the best players right now with a CIS background, and what was their route to success? I am thinking about Levis at Whitecaps. 

I know of other players who were already in pro structures then went to a CDN university and played (Srdjan Djekanovic, who was at Whitecaps and had played in Serbia), I even know of a foreigner who played a year CIS who was already semi-pro then was signed by an NCAA team while doing a Master and went to the MLS combine (Alex Isern, from Barcelona), but not of players who rose through CIS ranks into a solid pro career.

Just to throw this in here - this was a preview of the tourney in November. Eight teams listed with their key players mentioned.

http://www.rednationonline.ca/Articles2015/2015CISMensSoccerTournamentPreview.aspx