Canadian Premier League

[Unnamed Trialist]

1 hour ago, Havoc88 said:

Just to throw this in here - this was a preview of the tourney in November. Eight teams listed with their key players mentioned.

http://www.rednationonline.ca/Articles2015/2015CISMensSoccerTournamentPreview.aspx

Hi Havoc88, did you write that, it is very thorough? 

What the author is saying is that there are maybe one or two per team who have lower level pro quality, or are even ex-pro or semi-pro, fair enough. From that you could conclude CIS could be good enough to warrant two rounds of a draft fro a CPL, 16 players a year overall. 

[baulderdash77]

10 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

How often do you watch CIS soccer games?

Not recently but when I was in University I watched a bunch of McMaster games. I had friends on the team.  I watch NCAA soccer a fair number of times per year with travel for work and ESPNU channel.

I'm not a professional talent evaluator, I'm a fan like everyone else.  I play and coach soccer like probably many people on the board.

It's an odds game with the higher level CIS players.  For the most part they were standout youth players.  Lots of guys who were part of ID camps but never made it, mostly IMO because the current system has so few spots to go pro.  So the moved on to CIS and keep training and playing.

[rob.notenboom]

Seems like a lot of the hang up/disagreement on this topic is whether or not there should be a CIS draft. However, if CanPL teams scouted the CIS and signed players out of the CIS, wouldn't this serve the same purpose?

 

An issue with CIS as a development pathway (and this is from what I've gleaned from interviews with a couple of CIS coaches as well as a few articles reporting on CIS) is the extremely short and compressed league schedule and the lack of university resources that would be needed to change it. It's hard for the CIS to be a producer of talent with a season that lasts for two and a half months. It sounds like universities (I'm generalizing here from only a couple of examples that I am familiar with) are unwilling to commit the resources for teams to play a longer season, and there are many locations where a longer (indoor) season would be impossible due to lack of facilities. To play Spring to Fall would work but it is outside the main university calendar. 

[enbsports]

20 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Hi Havoc88, did you write that, it is very thorough? 

What the author is saying is that there are maybe one or two per team who have lower level pro quality, or are even ex-pro or semi-pro, fair enough. From that you could conclude CIS could be good enough to warrant two rounds of a draft fro a CPL, 16 players a year overall. 

I wrote this.

The issue with the CanPrem drafting from CIS is there would be limited players for a number reason.

First CIS is five years of eligibility oppose to four in NCAA so players graduate later but also the graduation rate each year is from 15%-25% of players oppose to NCAA where its 20%-30%

Other issue is about 15% of players in CIS are not Canadian they are foreign students at those schools and of that 15% they are usually among the top players 

So a draft could be held from CIS, CCAA and NCAA but the amount of quality players would be limited.

Which brings up the bigger question of how much Canadian talent there is in mens soccer.

From my work and research in player development Canada creates about 2 a year with 5 players on high side of MLS/European quality (by quality I mean players who last longer then one contract in the league)

We develop about 10 to 20 players a year who could be NASL/USL quality (Not all players who play for TFC2, Whitecaps 2 or FC Montreal are NASL/USL quality.)

I can probably develop a list of 50 players per calendar year where a player would be regarded higher then a rec player and deserves an opportunity at least to play in a competitive environment although I would say about 95% of players who are given an opportunity but don't last beyond a season the reason is justified compared to players he is up against.

This is one of the reason I suggested that the CanPrem be more semi-pro because it would mean that the Canadian players would get solid minutes and it would also allow players currently in school to join the club and not lose his NCAA eligibility.

I do see these numbers improving over time but not drastically I have enough information where I can fairly accurately predict future Canadian MLS/USL players for the next four/five years. The outliers being Ontario because they are being very quit especially TFC regarding player development. Other places such as Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Maritimes lack information to fully understand what level they are at although based on history I know the amount of quality players coming from these areas are limited although a CanPrem club located in these areas should improve the quality of player and awareness of them.     

 

 

[Unnamed Trialist]

Thanks for the answer, it is realistic. The article was especially good because you were really analyzing the quality amongst the CIS finalist, which of course does not cover all the talent in all of CIS.

Good point about eligibility, meaning less % available each year. 

As for the foreign contingent, well we'd have to accept that. Even, I think, it would be hard to justify denying a CPL team the right to draft a foreign player off a CIS team. NCAA does not restrict that way for any league, and many leagues draft internatinoally. 

What attracts me about a draft is that it would raise the profile of CIS players standing out, put some excitement into their university soccer experience, focus on CIS all around as a possible source of talent. It could, potentially, raise the quality of CIS. But I agree that the pool is limited, you could maybe get those two rounds out of it, or maybe not. Would teams have to guarantee a minimum salary of those drafted? Or a preseason camp? 

The argument against it, as I see it, is that any team in a Canadian league would scout CIS as well as highest level amateur anyways, they would just do it as they do now, and invite whatever they found interesting to a camp. Or would they?

 

[Coramoor]

the CPL being semi-pro is an awful idea. Suffer through the first few years before you hit the critical number needed to sustain the teams at a USL+ level.

 

with the right international signings, it probably could be at that level immediately

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

We will now be interrupting our regularly scheduled bickering to bring you the second half of what has been a cracker of a match between Hamilton and Stanley Park

[rob.notenboom]

10 hours ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

We will now be interrupting our regularly scheduled bickering to bring you the second half of what has been a cracker of a match between Hamilton and Stanley Park

Ha! Awesome. 

[Complete Homer]

So there have been mentions of pro to semi pro connections (Hamilton partnering with Sigma), I wonder if this is a widespread idea for the league? I'd love to see the Calgary team linked to the Foothills, the Highlanders attached to a hypothetical BC team, etc. To echo an earlier phrase used, it might help structure opportunity for kids with promise 

[Blue and White Army]

15 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

So there have been mentions of pro to semi pro connections (Hamilton partnering with Sigma), I wonder if this is a widespread idea for the league? I'd love to see the Calgary team linked to the Foothills, the Highlanders attached to a hypothetical BC team, etc. To echo an earlier phrase used, it might help structure opportunity for kids with promise 

What would the "relationship" look like?

I'm curious if CanPL clubs would have the money for modest transfer fees to smaller Canadian clubs. It would be nice for clubs to get paid for their development efforts.

Personally I'd rather see clubs remain independent and all of them have academies - more talent is developed that way. But I am a realist, and appreciate that the existing, extensive youth programs (if coached adequately) across Canada might need to be utilized.

And FYI, Victoria Highlanders no longer have an academy. In fact, I'm not even sure if they will field a U18 team in the Vancouver Island Soccer League again, as of the 2016-17 season.

[Complete Homer]

40 minutes ago, Blue and White Army said:

What would the "relationship" look like?

I'm curious if CanPL clubs would have the money for modest transfer fees to smaller Canadian clubs. It would be nice for clubs to get paid for their development efforts.

Personally I'd rather see clubs remain independent and all of them have academies - more talent is developed that way. But I am a realist, and appreciate that the existing, extensive youth programs (if coached adequately) across Canada might need to be utilized.

And FYI, Victoria Highlanders no longer have an academy. In fact, I'm not even sure if they will field a U18 team in the Vancouver Island Soccer League again, as of the 2016-17 season.

I was imagining formalized associations, but not farm teams. Sort of like the relations larger teams have worth some lower teams in European leagues, where the senior partner pays a fee that is small to them but helps sustain the semi-pro team which has much lower costs,  in exchange for the right of first refusal for talent that emerges from the lower team. 

Ideally both teams have an academy, but the CanPL team guarantees itself access to bidding opportunities on top talent from a semi pro team known for developing talent well (aka Sigma,  Foothills, hopefully more in the future) in exchange for a small fee. 

I see L1O and their counterparts slowly emerging as our defacto D2, if D3 in name, so setting up guided pathways from that level to CanPL could be a good thing. 

[1996]

This league if it gets off the ground would be better off playing in small stadiums, just look at some of these smaller countries around the world and their top divisions most play in small stadiums of the 5 to 10000 range.  Having 3 to 5000 in say Tim Hortons Field or the same in Ottawa's big stadium is not such a great look. I remember going to watch the old Hamilton Steelers at a packed  Brian Timmins Stadium which I think had a capacity of around 5 to 6000 the look and atmosphere was second to none. They could have easily of played next door at Ivor Wynne but chose the intimate Brian Timmins which was the right move, the 5000 or so at Ivor Wynne would have not had the same effect in such a massive stadium with all those empty seats. Brian Timmins with bleachers on both sides of the field when full was a great place to watch a game. I lived in Toronto and made the trek to Hamilton a few times a year just to watch a game there it was great. I think this league needs to start in smaller venues and try to fill them first then later maybe try to build 10 to 15000 seat stadiums of their own if the league starts to improve .

[shermanator]

I disagree completely, mostly on the key point in your argument: smaller countries.

If you haven't noticed, travel is an absolute killer in this country for sport, and the only countries that are comparable on the global scale are Russia and the US. Just because clubs with small stadiums work in other countries in the world, it does not mean that same philosophy will work in Canada. There is a unique soccer landscape here, that I don't think exists anywhere in the world, so we need a unique solution in terms of a domestic league. Copying what works in other countries will not work here.

Plus, if what has been leaked is true, a big driver behind this league is the CFL clubs wanting more events in their stadiums. If you don't use the stadiums, there are no additional events, and why would they want to be participants in that scenario?

[1996]

Watching a sporting event with 3000 people in a 25000 seat stadium will not work been there done that, if you think it will work than ok I can't change your mind, what killed many soccer leagues in North America over the years was playing soccer in big stadiums with small attendances, even 10 000 people in a 30000 seat stadium sucks for atmosphere. I was in Ottawa last year for a family function and was able to catch a Fury game the same weekend. The game I was at had over 5000 people at TD Place a stadium that fits 24000, it was ok but playing in a stadium so big like that and staring at all those empty seats would not get me excited to go back if I lived in Ottawa. However could you imagine 5000 in a small stadium with two grand stands on both side with a capacity of say 6 to 8000 the atmosphere and the look would be so much better and would entice people to come back.  Why do you think the MLS and even CFL have built or building smaller capacity stadiums, because playing in massive stadiums with more than half the stadium empty does nothing to enhance the atmosphere. This has been done before especially here in North America, so unless we are expecting to fill these big 20 t0 30000 seat stadiums in Canada to almost capacity with this new league then yes I have no problem, however 3 to 5000 in a 25000 stadium is not going to be a great look, it's been done many many times and has never worked, starting in smaller stadiums is the way to start in the beginning if this is going to work IMO.

 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

7 hours ago, 1996 said:

Watching a sporting event with 3000 people in a 25000 seat stadium will not work been there done that, if you think it will work than ok I can't change your mind, what killed many soccer leagues in North America over the years was playing soccer in big stadiums with small attendances, even 10 000 people in a 30000 seat stadium sucks for atmosphere. I was in Ottawa last year for a family function and was able to catch a Fury game the same weekend. The game I was at had over 5000 people at TD Place a stadium that fits 24000, it was ok but playing in a stadium so big like that and staring at all those empty seats would not get me excited to go back if I lived in Ottawa. However could you imagine 5000 in a small stadium with two grand stands on both side with a capacity of say 6 to 8000 the atmosphere and the look would be so much better and would entice people to come back.  Why do you think the MLS and even CFL have built or building smaller capacity stadiums, because playing in massive stadiums with more than half the stadium empty does nothing to enhance the atmosphere. This has been done before especially here in North America, so unless we are expecting to fill these big 20 t0 30000 seat stadiums in Canada to almost capacity with this new league then yes I have no problem, however 3 to 5000 in a 25000 stadium is not going to be a great look, it's been done many many times and has never worked, starting in smaller stadiums is the way to start in the beginning if this is going to work IMO.

 

Totally.  The whole "Always have a lineup" mentality applied to pro sports.

[SuperCanuck]

8 hours ago, shermanator said:

I disagree completely, mostly on the key point in your argument: smaller countries.

If you haven't noticed, travel is an absolute killer in this country for sport, and the only countries that are comparable on the global scale are Russia and the US. Just because clubs with small stadiums work in other countries in the world, it does not mean that same philosophy will work in Canada. There is a unique soccer landscape here, that I don't think exists anywhere in the world, so we need a unique solution in terms of a domestic league. Copying what works in other countries will not work here.

Plus, if what has been leaked is true, a big driver behind this league is the CFL clubs wanting more events in their stadiums. If you don't use the stadiums, there are no additional events, and why would they want to be participants in that scenario?

I think the only country we should really be comparing ourselves to is Australia.

I would say that the only countries whose travel would be comparable are Russia and Australia.  The US has a much higher population density.  Australia's population is very similar to ours with most of the population concentrated in one area (Hamilton - Québec City/ Sydney, Melbourne) then along the south in a line and then an isolated city on the southwest coast plus sort of a weirdish island to the southeast.  Australia's population is actually much smaller than ours, yet they're able to have national leagues in Aussie rules, rugby league, and the A-League as well as five teams in Super Rugby.  

[Blue and White Army]

My understanding is that Australia also has a lower-division soccer league in every state.

"Dear CSA..."

[Coramoor]

5 hours ago, SuperCanuck said:

I think the only country we should really be comparing ourselves to is Australia.

I would say that the only countries whose travel would be comparable are Russia and Australia.  The US has a much higher population density.  Australia's population is very similar to ours with most of the population concentrated in one area (Hamilton - Québec City/ Sydney, Melbourne) then along the south in a line and then an isolated city on the southwest coast plus sort of a weirdish island to the southeast.  Australia's population is actually much smaller than ours, yet they're able to have national leagues in Aussie rules, rugby league, and the A-League as well as five teams in Super Rugby.  

7 NHL teams, 9 CFL, 3 MLS teams, 1 NBA, 1 MLB. Junior hockey which draws thousands of spectators all over the country. Even Australia/ New Zealand isn't that comparable of a situation as they are almost entirely isolated from not just surrounding countries but also from a cultural/language perspective as well. Australia has also retained the split city elements in their sporting culture that is far more common in Europe than in NA; 4 AFL teams use the same stadium. A 20 team league in Canada would easily be possible if there was more of that possible here in Canada but unfortunately it doesn't really work that way and the smaller the number of teams, the more stable each of those teams has to be. If these city split situations were possible in Canada, building a league wouldn't even be an issue as you'd be able to put 3 or 4 in Toronto at least on top of TFC, 2 in Vancouver, etc. It's really the reason that Western Ontario needs it's own CFL and CPL teams, would help with this situation and is still far enough outside of Toronto with enough of a population to easily support both.

 

I don't agree with the atmosphere issue with large stadiums but that's a pointless debate as atmosphere and how much it matters is a very subjective thing

[rob.notenboom]

I was a little disappointed on Montagliani's recent comments (in a Sportsnet interview? I can't recall now), where he implied that it's crunch time to get a business plan in place. Cripes I thought that would already be in place and they'd be in the process of getting teams on board. I believe he said that the next 6 - 8 months will be a critical period.

Sick. Of. Waiting.

[shermanator]

Someone has too much time on their hands....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Premier_League

Also I found this quote funny...umm...ya think?

 

Quote

The ownership of the Winnipeg Jets are rumored to be placing a team in Winnipeg, despite Jets ownership being based out of the MTS Centre, a venue unsuitable for soccer

[marauder01]

On 2016-03-05 at 2:24 AM, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

We will now be interrupting our regularly scheduled bickering to bring you the second half of what has been a cracker of a match between Hamilton and Stanley Park

I freaking love this

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

2 hours ago, marauder01 said:

I freaking love this

 I couldn't not

[SuperCanuck]

18 hours ago, Coramoor said:

7 NHL teams, 9 CFL, 3 MLS teams, 1 NBA, 1 MLB. Junior hockey which draws thousands of spectators all over the country. Even Australia/ New Zealand isn't that comparable of a situation as they are almost entirely isolated from not just surrounding countries but also from a cultural/language perspective as well. Australia has also retained the split city elements in their sporting culture that is far more common in Europe than in NA; 4 AFL teams use the same stadium. A 20 team league in Canada would easily be possible if there was more of that possible here in Canada but unfortunately it doesn't really work that way and the smaller the number of teams, the more stable each of those teams has to be. If these city split situations were possible in Canada, building a league wouldn't even be an issue as you'd be able to put 3 or 4 in Toronto at least on top of TFC, 2 in Vancouver, etc. It's really the reason that Western Ontario needs it's own CFL and CPL teams, would help with this situation and is still far enough outside of Toronto with enough of a population to easily support both.

 

I don't agree with the atmosphere issue with large stadiums but that's a pointless debate as atmosphere and how much it matters is a very subjective thing

I'm aware of all that, and I think you misunderstood my point or I wasn't clear enough.  As I said, our population distribution is more like Australia's than anywhere else, but they're more like us than we are, with only about 2/3 the population, they're even more spread out, yet they manage to do things we can't.  Their general population also has more pride in their own than we do which of course makes it much easier for their teams to be successful.  We could do the same things they do if we didn't need America's approval before we say "OK, I can like this now?"

[SuperCanuck]

On 5 March, 2016 at 11:24 PM, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

We will now be interrupting our regularly scheduled bickering to bring you the second half of what has been a cracker of a match between Hamilton and Stanley Park

Brilliant.  The only thing  I'd change is SPK 3 HAM 1, but I feel you might disagree.

[Coramoor]

2 hours ago, SuperCanuck said:

I'm aware of all that, and I think you misunderstood my point or I wasn't clear enough.  As I said, our population distribution is more like Australia's than anywhere else, but they're more like us than we are, with only about 2/3 the population, they're even more spread out, yet they manage to do things we can't.  Their general population also has more pride in their own than we do which of course makes it much easier for their teams to be successful.  We could do the same things they do if we didn't need America's approval before we say "OK, I can like this now?"

Fuck off.

We have our own things, they just don't happen to be soccer as a professional sport(at least not yet). Canada is a hockey country, a curling country, a general winter sport country. We have the CFL which is a league and a ruleset of it's own. Canada has tons of pride in its own.

Australia is an isolated country that held onto a lot of its British heritage. Canada is not an isolated country and adapted much more to the North American way of doing things, I'm not going to call it American because frankly there is no evidence our systems exist the way they do because of the US.