Canadian Division 1A - Why We Need It

[Lord Bob]

No, I am totally with you on every point (as are the facts). Canada is about to announce a WCQ roster that will have about 75% MLS-associated content (and maybe one or two NASL players), but yet this counts for nothing. MLS/USL just started three professional clubs (at a loss) that are pretty much all about developing Canadian players so they can actually compete at higher levels and all you get here is screaming that they played 73% Canadian players instead of 81% or something when it's an accepted tenet that good players are developed by playing high-level competition at every step and fighting for their spot rather than just being handed minutes.

MLS/NASL/USL/USSF have done done the hard yards and spent hundreds of millions of dollars getting a viable league structure and development systems for North American all the way down to U-14 - AT A TIME WHEN CANADA HAD NOTHING GOING ON - but all we get here are conspiracy theories, jingoism and fantastical thinking.

Hey, maybe this league will work out, but let's quit with the ludicrous statements and take a realistic look at the good and bad aspects of both our current situation and what is being proposed here (which we don't even know yet).

Hey, if you wanna be an American vassal that's your perogative. It's the bewilderment that Canadian soccer supporters might support Canadian soccer for its own sake that I'm confused by.

[rob.notenboom]

I think we should all be able to agree on one thing. If this league does happen, and TSN does broadcast games, Vic Rauter better damn well be the voice of the league.

Dominic Mobilio must have some relatives that could play in the league.

[Macksam]

I think it's a bit extreme to accuse anyone of displaying jingoism here Dub.

[baulderdash77]

With respect to interest in Soccer, participant registration is a bit of an indicator of popularity or general support.

 

I don't think it's ever been put out here but this is the soccer participation numbers for each province from the 2013 CSA Annual Report:

                  Players      Total Population     % Participation

Ontario     355,000         13,678k                  2.6%

Quebec    185,000           8,214k                  2.3%

BC            119,000           4,631k                  2.6%

Alberta       87,000            4,121k                  2.1% 

*Maritimes 44,000            1,840k                  2.4%

Sk              41,000            1,125k                  3.6%

NS             25,000               942k                   2.7%

Manitoba   15,000             1,281k                  1.2%

NB             14,000                754k                  1.9%

NL             12,000                524k                  2.3%

PEI              5,000                146k                  3.4%

Territories    3,000                115k                  2.6%

 

*Maritimes as a region for illustration, excludes NL

[baulderdash77]

So if participation is any indication I would think that a team in Saskatchewan may have a better chance than Winnipeg for example.  Who knew that soccer is such a hotbed there? 

 

Also I wonder why Manitoba has half the soccer participation of most other provinces?  Maybe someone else knows?

 

Anyways for a team to be a success you have to a facility, popularity (intensity), population scale and local business support. 

 

If you're looking at candidate cities which have these 4 things?  Ranked by Metro Population in Canada

Toronto- all

Montreal - all

Vancouver - all

Calgary - all

Edmonton - all

Ottawa - all

Winnipeg - popularity?

Hamilton - all

Quebec City - facility (Peps)?, popularity? business support?

Kitchener Waterloo- facility (Warrior Field)?

London - probably has everything including facility (TD Stadium)

St. Catherines/ Niagara - facility?  popularity? business support?

Halifax - facility? business support?

Oshawa - facility?  business support? population?

Victoria - facility (Centennial or Royal Athletic big enough?) population?  business support?

Windsor - facility? population?  business support?

Saskatoon - facility (Griffiths Stadium)?, population?

Regina - population?

[baulderdash77]

When you look at that list the possible cities are basically the CFL cities (if Regina is a regional market), plus London and maybes in K-W, Quebec City and Victoria.  I don't think anywhere makes sense in the Atlantic provinces because the major market there (Halifax) has no stadium- the same problem as the CFL).

 

The problem remains the MLS in best 3 media and business markets in Canada represent 10.9 million of our population.  If they could get all 9 of the next best markets that only makes up 6.6 million people so the TV contracts and national advertisers will be difficult to attract and/or get good sponsorships from.  There's a tremendous amount of local business support but those national deals make the whole thing work.

 

A domestic league absolutely has to have those 3 markets as part of the deal.  I don't know how they'll get around it.  I'm really hopeful for a league but it's going to be hard to be a 1A league.

[Kurt-MTL]

Hey, if you wanna be an American vassal that's your perogative. It's the bewilderment that Canadian soccer supporters might support Canadian soccer for its own sake that I'm confused by.

I really don't get this; are we an American vassal in hockey, basketball, and baseball because our teams play in American leagues? 

[theaub]

I really don't get this; are we an American vassal in hockey, basketball, and baseball because our teams play in American leagues? 

 

I mean, objectively we 100% are.  But I'd argue its far more acceptable in those cases since those are the best leagues in the world.

 

e: for proof of that, try getting through the Dept of Homeland Security mandated security at Jays games now (although in all fairness the metal detector things don't actually work)

[Levi Oakey]

^ So much this 

 

NHL, NBA and MLB are leagues basically on their own, no competition. I am positive a CHL team could trounce most of Europe's hockey leagues. In soccer though, everyone has their own league. So why not us. 

[ThatDaveCh]

To add to that, we have a large Canadian contingent playing in those world class leagues. And those leagues don't consider Canadians to be foreigners.

[squizz1402635577]

I think we should all be able to agree on one thing. If this league does happen, and TSN does broadcast games, Vic Rauter better damn well be the voice of the league.

 

+1

[squizz1402635577]

 

The 'Caps hate Canada. 

 

Dammit Mike, you stole my response.

#WhitecapsHateCanada

[Dub Narcotic]

Hey, if you wanna be an American vassal that's your perogative. It's the bewilderment that Canadian soccer supporters might support Canadian soccer for its own sake that I'm confused by.

 

[self-edit: no need for personal attacks]

[Michael Crampton]

So if participation is any indication I would think that a team in Saskatchewan may have a better chance than Winnipeg for example.  Who knew that soccer is such a hotbed there? 

 

Also I wonder why Manitoba has half the soccer participation of most other provinces?  Maybe someone else knows?

 

Anyways for a team to be a success you have to a facility, popularity (intensity), population scale and local business support. 

 

If you're looking at candidate cities which have these 4 things?  Ranked by Metro Population in Canada

Toronto- all

Montreal - all

Vancouver - all

Calgary - all

Edmonton - all

Ottawa - all

Winnipeg - popularity?

Hamilton - all

Quebec City - facility (Peps)?, popularity? business support?

Kitchener Waterloo- facility (Warrior Field)?

London - probably has everything including facility (TD Stadium)

St. Catherines/ Niagara - facility?  popularity? business support?

Halifax - facility? business support?

Oshawa - facility?  business support? population?

Victoria - facility (Centennial or Royal Athletic big enough?) population?  business support?

Windsor - facility? population?  business support?

Saskatoon - facility (Griffiths Stadium)?, population?

Regina - population?

 

Great group of posts there.  (I lost a reply about Saskatoon as a market btw: I've been impressed by the depth of soccer culture there.)

 

Bolded, however, is the HUGEST gap in our developing club infrastructure.

 

Calgary: over 1 million people in its metro area (per Wiki) and it doesn't even have a pro team?  Get a group of investors, build a proper facility, and start a club that connects with the local populace, becomes a relevant, normal part of the sports market that people expect to keep existing.

 

Then do it on the next city on your list.

 

And then do it again.

 

And then again.

 

And again.

 

Again.

 

Pretty soon we might actually have the clubs to form a Canadian league.

[madmonte]

^ I just love that perspective.  If you look at teams based in US leagues, that's actually how it's been going.  The BIGGEST worry about the  Canadian league is that it's a bit of "If you build it they will come" rather than continuing to work city by city mentality.

 

If Canada is ready to be enough of a soccer nation to support it, though, it will work.  God I hope it works.

[Michael Crampton]

God I hope it works.

 

If they go for it, we've got no choice but to support it, because failure would be catastrophic (again, as usual).  I'll probably be buying season tickets to Hamilton if they end up in this or the NASL.  Hopefully there's enough people like me.

[Jason]

There is one thing that doesn't add up regarding this news: Hamilton.  It's been widely reported that the Ticats have been taking meetings with the NASL, and in fact may be close to making an announcement for an expansion franchise.  They have confirmed they have already hired people to their soccer operations department.  

 

So if this new Canadian league has a lot of CFL involvement, why are the Ticats jumping on board with NASL?  I can't imagine they are planning on paying the NASL expansion fee to play for one year then move over to the Canadian league.  I'm sure they are not so desperate to start in 2016 that they would be unwilling to wait for the new league.  Bob Young is an influential CFL owner, and has at least a less comfortable relationship with the NASL (minority owner with Carolina when they imploded).  I think it's somewhat safe to presume that the Ticats are aware of this new league (based on other CFL involvement if nothing else).  So why are they not getting on board with it?  What makes the new Canadian league so unappealing to them that they aren't involved, aren't willing to work through the process, and are apparently somewhat ready to with the NASL?

 

Maybe the reporting has not been accurate about the Hamilton situation re: NASL.  Maybe they're doing NASL meetings as a backup.  But if the Ticats announce they're joining NASL in the next few weeks, I will really be wondering about why they chose NASL over the Canadian league.  I see no reason to doubt Rollins' reporting, especially since he is really standing behind it.  But if Hamilton joins NASL soon, it will really cast doubts for me that this Canadian league is happening.

 

Jason

[Lord Bob]

[self-edit: no need for personal attacks]

Being polite on the Internet? There is no doubting you're true red Canadian, anyway.

[Jason]

Great group of posts there.  (I lost a reply about Saskatoon as a market btw: I've been impressed by the depth of soccer culture there.)

 

Bolded, however, is the HUGEST gap in our developing club infrastructure.

 

Calgary: over 1 million people in its metro area (per Wiki) and it doesn't even have a pro team?  Get a group of investors, build a proper facility, and start a club that connects with the local populace, becomes a relevant, normal part of the sports market that people expect to keep existing.

 

Then do it on the next city on your list.

 

And then do it again.

 

And then again.

 

And again.

 

Again.

 

Pretty soon we might actually have the clubs to form a Canadian league.

It's fun to argue the cities, but really, most decent sized cities in Canada have a chance of getting 5000 out to a soccer game if their ownership and operations structure is solid.  Look at it this way, how many cities in Canada can get 5000 out to junior hockey games?  Sure hockey is the #1 sport, but there are many more games a year.  Charleston in the USL has been able to draw 3000+ for years and it's a pretty small place.

 

Jason

[Michael Crampton]

Charleston in the USL has been able to draw 3000+ for years and it's a pretty small place.

 

 

I'm all for a Canadian Charleston.  The post I lost even lamented the fact that small American cities like that are building great little facilities while we seem to be going towards the "mostly-empty-CFL-stadium" model.

 

The point I'm pushing isn't which cities*; it's city-by-city, wherever there are the right combination of prerequisites.  Joining and augmenting the existing leagues provides room for some clubs to fail.  If three or four teams turn out to be unworkable in a 8-10 team Canadian league... you probably lose the entire league, and maybe the viable teams.

 

*Other than Calgary, which really is a no-brainer.

[baulderdash77]

Is 5,000 the goal?  I think it's the long term minimum amount for a sustainable league.  The CHL often comes up as a comparison but remember they play CHL players about $100 per week plus room and board.  That's not going to cut it to be honest.

 

I know this is a pretty big sidebar but bear with me:

 

Let's say it's a national league and national league sponsors plus TV add up to $1 million / team / year

If you're at 5,000 attendance x 16 home games x $25 average ticket price that's a $2 million gate.

A good team this size may get $500k of concessions, $200k local sponsors and $100k merchandise.

 

That's just about $3.8 million as a team budget which sounds like a fair bit but isn't.

 

Major costs:

Advertising - 500k

Travel - 500k

Ticketing - 320k

Stadium Ops - 250k

Front Office - 600k (pretty bare bones here)

Office costs - 200k

Rent - 200k (being generous)

That's about $2.6 million as fixed costs

 

You're pretty much looking at a team operations budget of no more than $1 million including coaching staff and players if you're not going to have anything left over for profit.

 

That's probably $800k on players tops so even with 20 rostered players they're not making much money here.

 

Anyway long story short here, 5,000 patrons gets you a pretty bare bones operation.  To be anything close to long term sustainable you have to get more than that.  I think at 7,500 you're reaching the minimum for stability actually.

[-Hammer-]

There is one thing that doesn't add up regarding this news: Hamilton.  It's been widely reported that the Ticats have been taking meetings with the NASL, and in fact may be close to making an announcement for an expansion franchise.  They have confirmed they have already hired people to their soccer operations department.  

 

So if this new Canadian league has a lot of CFL involvement, why are the Ticats jumping on board with NASL?  I can't imagine they are planning on paying the NASL expansion fee to play for one year then move over to the Canadian league.  I'm sure they are not so desperate to start in 2016 that they would be unwilling to wait for the new league.  Bob Young is an influential CFL owner, and has at least a less comfortable relationship with the NASL (minority owner with Carolina when they imploded).  I think it's somewhat safe to presume that the Ticats are aware of this new league (based on other CFL involvement if nothing else).  So why are they not getting on board with it?  What makes the new Canadian league so unappealing to them that they aren't involved, aren't willing to work through the process, and are apparently somewhat ready to with the NASL?

 

Maybe the reporting has not been accurate about the Hamilton situation re: NASL.  Maybe they're doing NASL meetings as a backup.  But if the Ticats announce they're joining NASL in the next few weeks, I will really be wondering about why they chose NASL over the Canadian league.  I see no reason to doubt Rollins' reporting, especially since he is really standing behind it.  But if Hamilton joins NASL soon, it will really cast doubts for me that this Canadian league is happening.

 

Jason

 

To be honest with you. I'm honestly skeptical of Duane's sources, as they said "Yeah, it's going to be NASL Paralell division" and now it's "No, it's going to be its own league" and really him and CSN has been the only source and no one else seems to be picking it up. I think more likely that Bob Young is buying an NASL franchise, and when the time is right will make a Canadian league if and when the other CFL owners see it as a viable investment and that it can work, or that there are sufficient ownership in other Canadian cities to make it work. I think what we'll see is the NASL will continue to expand in the US and then Calgary will get and NASL team to compliment Edmonton and lower travel costs. Then after that, with four stable teams they'll talk about jumping ship and making a Canadian league a reality.

 

However, one battle at a time. Lets actually see a Hamilton NASL or soccer team announcement before making the best laid plans.

[lazlo_80]

Bob Young himself said himself that hopefully they'd have something interesting to announce by 2016. That's as close as it gets to a reliable source. I know some other sites mentioned they were announcing a new NASL team in Hamilton potentially in the next month, so clearly one of those two timelines needs to be wrong, or to the point above he plans to play NASL for a short time then go to Canadian league, which would make zero sense at all. Hopefully some clarity comes to this in the next few days, as you're right, we're sort of hearing two different things here WRT to Hamilton. And from everything I've heard Bob Young is one of the biggest proponents of the Canadian league, so it would be strange if he dropped it for the NASL.

[king1010]

^^^ yup. Bob young has said he wants to be part of a canadian league.

And has also posted on the ticats forum that something is in the works and woll be announced late 2015 early 2016 like other posters have already mentioned.

Somethings brewing, not sure what though.

[Grizzly]

Count me as a sceptic as to both the accuracy of the story and the viability of a league like this. I would love to have a Canadian league someday but I don't think we either have the player pool or the fanbase willing to watch what will likely be a D3 level of soccer for a number of years (and even if it were D2 level I don't think the fanbase is there). I agree with the others who say that building solid clubs slowly is the way to go and if the conditions present themselves when we have established clubs with good attendance that is the time to consider a Canadian league. Starting a nationwide Canadian league at the moment seems like something that is premature and destined to fail with possibly disastrous consequences for pro-soccer in this country.