Canadian Division 1A - Why We Need It

[madmonte]

Teams playing at a higher level is less important than players playing at a higher level IMO. How's this whole MLS thing working out for the average Canadian player?.. debatable.

 

Dead on, but cue the arguments about needing Canadians to have the best competition possible to make them play harder to get there.

 

Personally I agree with Gagne, though.  More Canadian PLAYERS playing will eventually give us a lot of quantity to choose from.  Out of that quantity, some quality will emerge and go to the next level...I love this Canadian league thing, and I'm fully on board with the idea of ensuring a minimum amount of Canadian content, both on the roster AND on the actual pitch.  Which is a little in opposition to how I feel about the MLS, where I think if you want to play there, you should win your spot.  The difference?  This is a Canadian league.

MLS to get fans and kids more interested and realize they CAN have an upward trajectory and a career.  Canadian league to employ a lot of kids at pro (hopefully) level, and get them to a higher level of football.  (If the Canadian League eventually BECOMES the higher level, so be it, it just won't START that way)

[madmonte]

Begs to ask, would players like Ameobi, Nyassi, and Foredyce continue to play in Edmonton if they were to play in the Canadian Prem? If we're saying that the MLS reserve squads need to play in it, then probably not. That would then create a huge disparity between Canadian Prem teams and the MLS sides in the VCup.

 

Depends on whether the pay can stay the same.

[ThatDaveCh]

Depends on whether the pay can stay the same.

If the CFL is seriously interested in backing it, along with potentially other sponsors and guys like Fath, then it's not out of question.

Canadian league to employ a lot of kids at pro (hopefully) level, and get them to a higher level of football.  (If the Canadian League eventually BECOMES the higher level, so be it, it just won't START that way)

I think that's the idea. If we can get Canadians into the pro game, and from there move onto more lucrative positions with European sides or the MLS, then so be it, until the Can Prem can get to a higher level.

[Tuscan]

If that's the case, do you support independent teams in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver (and Ottawa/Edmonton if they don't leave NASL)?

 

If that is what has to happen then yes. Bottom line with this league is it MUST carry the self-identity as an absolute, unquestionable Canadian top flight second to no other leagues.

[Tuscan]

I'll throw another leg into the piranha pond: I don't expect the MLS teams to want to be a part of this in any way, shape, or form, as it does nothing for them as long as they are fully embedded in the direction MLS and USSF want to go. I've lost faith that our three MLS clubs give a damn about national soccer in any capacity. Yes, they have the academies, yes, their spin doctors talk about how their academies are all about developing national team talent, but let's look at this from a purely business perspective. This league provides, in my opinion, nothing for the MLS teams due to what needs to be the league's prerogative to be a on-par competitor with MLS.

[rob.notenboom]

THIS is very true. Put a team in Regina that wears green and silver and I honestly believe some of roughrider nation spills over.

Being a Rider season ticket holder I'm not sure how much cross over there would be tbh. But like anywhere else, right circumstance, right financial backing, right marketing it takes off, even in Regina. Uphill battle here though. Small market and small soccer community.

[-Hammer-]

I'll throw another leg into the piranha pond: I don't expect the MLS teams to want to be a part of this in any way, shape, or form, as it does nothing for them as long as they are fully embedded in the direction MLS and USSF want to go. I've lost faith that our three MLS clubs give a damn about national soccer in any capacity. Yes, they have the academies, yes, their spin doctors talk about how their academies are all about developing national team talent, but let's look at this from a purely business perspective. This league provides, in my opinion, nothing for the MLS teams due to what needs to be the league's prerogative to be a on-par competitor with MLS.

 

I fully agree with you on this one Tuscan. I feel their comments about how the are developing national team talent basically amount to "We're developing National team talent, but lord knows we don't want to play these guys. Heck the fact we need three on the bench is enough of a stretch as is! What do you think we're raising them to play in MLS?"

 

That said, the MLS clubs do give a damn about national soccer. It's just that the damn they give is US soccer, not Canadian soccer, which, given it is a US league, is not unexpected.

[Yohan]

I'll believe it when I see it. Call me a cynic but I can't help but feel that if the level of play isn't at least on par with that of NASL then people won't come out to support..

 

Honestly, are there even enough Canadian soccer players of even USL level quality to fill 8-10 pro teams?

 

It's going to be a lot of growing pains. And I hope the investors have deep pockets and a lot of patience to take a lot of financial loss because I can't see this Canadian league turning profit quick. 

[Tuscan]

king1010, on 01 Jun 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

100% they will.

 

The roughriders are probably the only major sporting entertainment in the summer, and they only play 9 times year. I am sure 5000 or so would come out to watch a green soccer team play at their shiny new stadium on a nice summer night.

 

What would be a good average attendance to shoot for? 5000?

 

Smaller teams averaging 3000, larger teams averaging 7000?

 

I disagree, I don't feel this would be an automatic lock.

 

The reason? There has been little effort to sell soccer to Saskatchewan and boatloads of efforts to sell Football there. CIS ball is still big in Saskatchewan and I am unaware of the state of youth soccer in the province, but I suspect enrollment is not high.

 

Bah buggered up the formatting of this post. Anyway, fellas fellas, Saskatchewan soccer might still be viewed as being From The Black Hole (A Prairie Perspective On Canadian Soccer) #Plug but it's by and far the largest participation sport in the province. We have semi-formalised academy programs in the three largest cities (Stoon, Vag, PA) and have a Whitecaps Snake Oil Dreams Academy even. Now that our online registration system is up and running province-wide, not just players but all participants (coaches, refs, volunteers) are counted among soccer's ranks here, which now gives the Sask Soccer Assoc. immense bargaining power when it comes to negotiations with direct sponsors and sponsorships through SaskSport.

 

I hate it when regionalism rears its ugly head on the Voyageurs Forum, but boy don't let them Ontarian "assumptions about the rest of the country" show up either.

[-Hammer-]

Honestly, are there even enough Canadian soccer players of even USL level quality to fill 8-10 pro teams?

 

It's going to be a lot of growing pains. And I hope the investors have deep pockets and a lot of patience to take a lot of financial loss because I can't see this Canadian league turning profit quick. 

 

Honestly, that's my question and I can't help but feel this is too soon. I've long felt the path to a Canadian league should be with 4 or 5 already stable NASL teams suddenly parting ways and adding maybe 2 or 3 new teams to the mix and holding a champion vs champion derby with NASL. That way, you knew the level of play was going to remain, relatively the same to NASL.

 

I think if you suddenly plop down 8 teams, with a great deal of unknown owners, in many in untested soccer markets, you have the recipe for a lot of grief.

It's got to be at a division 2 level, or at least a division 2 hype level.

[Tuscan]

Teams playing at a higher level is less important than players playing at a higher level IMO. How's this whole MLS thing working out for the average Canadian player?.. debatable.

I wouldn't even say it's debatable. It isn't working out for Canadian players really AT ALL outside of Osorio, Morgan, and Larin. They're proving their worth luckily enough. Guys like Nakajima-Farran and others didn't really get a fair shake.

[lazlo_80]

you don't have to have the teams playing all Canadians. It could be a slowly building quota, start smaller and build it up every year. Heck, even 6 players in the 18 to start would be potentially 60 players. Between dudes you expect to start and younger developmental prospects I think you could achieve that.

[-Hammer-]

 

king1010, on 01 Jun 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

 

Bah buggered up the formatting of this post. Anyway, fellas fellas, Saskatchewan soccer might still be viewed as being From The Black Hole (A Prairie Perspective On Canadian Soccer) #Plug but it's by and far the largest participation sport in the province. We have semi-formalised academy programs in the three largest cities (Stoon, Vag, PA) and have a Whitecaps Snake Oil Dreams Academy even. Now that our online registration system is up and running province-wide, not just players but all participants (coaches, refs, volunteers) are counted among soccer's ranks here, which now gives the Sask Soccer Assoc. immense bargaining power when it comes to negotiations with direct sponsors and sponsorships through SaskSport.

 

I hate it when regionalism rears its ugly head on the Voyageurs Forum, but boy don't let them Ontarian "assumptions about the rest of the country" show up either.

 

 

To be fair, I did qualify my remarks by saying "I am unaware of the state of youth soccer in the province, but I suspect enrollment is not high."

 

I'm glad that you've corrected me and that I'm in error apparently.

 

However, you can't dispute that the sports culture of the Chelsea song stealing Roughriders, dominates the province.

[rob.notenboom]

Jeff and I will likely debate this in person over beers in Edmonton. Soccer participation is huge in SK but how this might translate to support for a pro club is very murky. It might not translate at all as the vast majority of those participants are only interested in rec and keeping active. Not much deeper commitment to the sport than that and that doesn't bode well for a pro team.

However money and free time abound in Regina and Saskatoon and a well thought out hipster/more serious soccer player/grassroots marketing program could pay off.

Selfishly I'd love a local team. But I'm even more interested in the success of a Canada wide league.

[Tuscan]

Another one to throw to the piranhas: This league will initially be a top flight only by name and marketed representation. The quality won't be there if it is done right. I also argue it should AVOID the direction MLS has gone with Designated Players, and make its focus primarily on ensuring a max number of Canadians get starting XI spots with perhaps only a few int'ls speckled throughout. The goal of this league should be to be a place where Canadians can play as professionals to move on to better leagues to help bolster the talent for the national team, at least initially. I would fear the day we adopt the direction MLS is going.

[-Hammer-]

you don't have to have the teams playing all Canadians. It could be a slowly building quota, start smaller and build it up every year. Heck, even 6 players in the 18 to start would be potentially 60 players. Between dudes you expect to start and younger developmental prospects I think you could achieve that.

 

As far as Quota. That pretty much lines up with the CFL ratio. Around 1/3rd of the starters must be Canadian and more then 45% of the total roster. So yeah,

[Tuscan]

Jeff and I will likely debate this in person over beers in Edmonton. Soccer participation is huge in SK but how this might translate to support for a pro club is very murky. It might not translate at all as the vast majority of those participants are only interested in rec and keeping active. Not much deeper commitment to the sport than that and that doesn't bode well for a pro team.

However money and free time abound in Regina and Saskatoon and a well thought out hipster/more serious soccer player/grassroots marketing program could pay off.

Selfishly I'd love a local team. But I'm even more interested in the success of a Canada wide league.

 

I think the appetite from youth players to go as far with the game as they can is definitely there, we've simply never had a formalised place for them to go before. People here definitely don't get the way soccer works compared to our major NA sports, so it would take a monumental marketing effort to fill a stadium.

 

We're all just bullshitters speculating on IDEAS and ways of influencing the league as we see fit that we really don't have any control over.

 

Oh and Hammer I didn't mean to toss a shit grenade on or near you, really just wanted to SHOVE IT DOWN YOUR THROAT INTERNET ANONYMITY-STYLE WOOOOOOOOOOOOO! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sSofokAIiw

[theaub]

Another one to throw to the piranhas: This league will initially be a top flight only by name and marketed representation. The quality won't be there if it is done right. I also argue it should AVOID the direction MLS has gone with Designated Players, and make its focus primarily on ensuring a max number of Canadians get starting XI spots with perhaps only a few int'ls speckled throughout. The goal of this league should be to be a place where Canadians can play as professionals to move on to better leagues to help bolster the talent for the national team, at least initially. I would fear the day we adopt the direction MLS is going.

 

I completely disagree with you here (or moreso, think the two things you brought up aren't mutually exclusive).  Marketing a league as 'top flight' with zero marquee names and a majority of Canadian starters is going to end well for all of two weeks into the season before the people who don't post on this board that are tuning in realize they're watching a rich man's L1O. 

 

The problem is we know nothing about this league.  Are we talking legitimate backing by the CFL wherein a team can have a $2M payroll and actually attract a decently well-known international player to anchor some ticket sales?  Or is it a $500K payroll league where a fringe NT starter like Tosaint Ricketts (no offense Tosaint) is the star on a team?

[Michael Crampton]

Teams playing at a higher level is less important than players playing at a higher level IMO. How's this whole MLS thing working out for the average Canadian player?.. debatable.

 

 

I wouldn't even say it's debatable. It isn't working out for Canadian players really AT ALL outside of Osorio, Morgan, and Larin. They're proving their worth luckily enough. Guys like Nakajima-Farran and others didn't really get a fair shake.

 

And I'd say exactly the opposite.

 

It's a Voyageur's Board heresy: MLS has been the best thing for the Canadian player since the collapse of the CSL.

 

You can't just exclude Osorio, Morgan, and Larin.  You should be adding Teibert, Adekugbe, and Doneil Henry.  And that's without considering the "might play for Canada"s that exist or already came on board like Will Johnson.

 

Canadian soccer players have more than 75 professional spots to compete for in their own country where they can be paid real living wages and concentrate on the game exclusively in a high-stakes pro environment.  ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS BE GOOD ENOUGH.

 

Yes, I understand that an even wider pool to allow for happy accidents and late bloomers would be even better.  But compare the above to where Canada was 10 years ago: then we had, for one year, five North American Div2 teams.  About two of which were truly stable organizations.  Now we have three solid Div1 organizations, that subsidize three Div3 teams, and two Div2 teams at least as stable as the Lynx were a decade ago.  Things continue to get better and there's the strong possibility of adding another Div2 team next year (even if I'm not convinced of the viability of Hamilton).

 

The idea that the Canadian MLS teams don't want (or care about) Canadian players succeeding is insane and based on a completely unrealistic evaluation of the domestic talent pool.  If (and when) Canada can develop players that are as important as Graham Zusi, Omar Gonzalez, or Lee Nguyen have been to their teams the MLS hype machine will go into overdrive in our markets.  The teams are dying to have marketable local faces and, if anything, the problem has as much been trying to rush the whole process along by throwing unprepared kids into the fire at too early of a time.

 

Would changing the domestic quota speed the process?  There are arguments on either side.  I'll just say this: many American MLS don't use all their international spots.  Personally, I'd be in favour of removing ALL domestic restrictions across the entire league, because I believe in the North American player and suspect that the intrinsic advantages they will always enjoy in their home market more than compensates for the possible willingness of foreign players from cheaper markets to sign for less.

 

But whatever.  I know I won't convince anyone on this board and the argument is boring.

 

The 'Caps hate Canada. 

[Michael Crampton]

Honestly, are there even enough Canadian soccer players of even USL level quality to fill 8-10 pro teams?

 

 

Based on the current USL table?  I'd say it's not even a question.

[-Hammer-]

The problem is we know nothing about this league.  Are we talking legitimate backing by the CFL wherein a team can have a $2M payroll and actually attract a decently well-known international player to anchor some ticket sales?  Or is it a $500K payroll league where a fringe NT starter like Tosaint Ricketts (no offense Tosaint) is the star on a team?

 

I can agree with that. As far as we know, this might be a new Division 3 and the NASL franchises will remain separate. Too few details, so I'm taking this one with a grain of salt, much like the last post regarding this stressed NASL's involvement.

 

Oh and Hammer I didn't mean to toss a shit grenade on or near you, really just wanted to SHOVE IT DOWN YOUR THROAT INTERNET ANONYMITY-STYLE WOOOOOOOOOOOOO! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sSofokAIiw

 

Well, you're from Saskatchewan, I'm sure those grenades are in ample supply over there

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CyRiwED7s8

[Dub Narcotic]

And I'd say exactly the opposite.

 

It's a Voyageur's Board heresy: MLS has been the best thing for the Canadian player since the collapse of the CSL.

 

You can't just exclude Osorio, Morgan, and Larin.  You should be adding Teibert, Adekugbe, and Doneil Henry.  And that's without considering the "might play for Canada"s that exist or already came on board like Will Johnson.

 

Canadian soccer players have more than 75 professional spots to compete for in their own country where they can be paid real living wages and concentrate on the game exclusively in a high-stakes pro environment.  ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS BE GOOD ENOUGH.

 

Yes, I understand that an even wider pool to allow for happy accidents and late bloomers would be even better.  But compare the above to where Canada was 10 years ago: then we had, for one year, five North American Div2 teams.  About two of which were truly stable organizations.  Now we have three solid Div1 organizations, that subsidize three Div3 teams, and two Div2 teams at least as stable as the Lynx were a decade ago.  Things continue to get better and there's the strong possibility of adding another Div2 team next year (even if I'm not convinced of the viability of Hamilton).

 

The idea that the Canadian MLS teams don't want (or care about) Canadian players succeeding is insane and based on a completely unrealistic evaluation of the domestic talent pool.  If (and when) Canada can develop players that are as important as Graham Zusi, Omar Gonzalez, or Lee Nguyen have been to their teams the MLS hype machine will go into overdrive in our markets.  The teams are dying to have marketable local faces and, if anything, the problem has as much been trying to rush the whole process along by throwing unprepared kids into the fire at too early of a time.

 

Would changing the domestic quota speed the process?  There are arguments on either side.  I'll just say this: many American MLS don't use all their international spots.  Personally, I'd be in favour of removing ALL domestic restrictions across the entire league, because I believe in the North American player and suspect that the intrinsic advantages they will always enjoy in their home market more than compensates for the possible willingness of foreign players from cheaper markets to sign for less.

 

But whatever.  I know I won't convince anyone on this board and the argument is boring.

 

The 'Caps hate Canada. 

 

No, I am totally with you on every point (as are the facts). Canada is about to announce a WCQ roster that will have about 75% MLS-associated content (and maybe one or two NASL players), but yet this counts for nothing. MLS/USL just started three professional clubs (at a loss) that are pretty much all about developing Canadian players so they can actually compete at higher levels and all you get here is screaming that they played 73% Canadian players instead of 81% or something when it's an accepted tenet that good players are developed by playing high-level competition at every step and fighting for their spot rather than just being handed minutes.

 

MLS/NASL/USL/USSF have done done the hard yards and spent hundreds of millions of dollars getting a viable league structure and development systems for North American all the way down to U-14 - AT A TIME WHEN CANADA HAD NOTHING GOING ON -  but all we get here are conspiracy theories, jingoism and fantastical thinking. 

 

Hey, maybe this league will work out, but let's quit with the ludicrous statements and take a realistic look at the good and bad aspects of both our current situation and what is being proposed here (which we don't even know yet).

[shermanator]

I think we should all be able to agree on one thing. If this league does happen, and TSN does broadcast games, Vic Rauter better damn well be the voice of the league.

[xcalibre]

This sounds a lot like that early-2000s announcement of an upcoming Canadian Professional League or whatever it was.  Apparently we're always 2-3 years away from a coast-to-coast pro league.

 

I still think the best option is the US structure, at least until we have enough teams to think about breaking away.  Keep slotting cities into NASL and USL, those are pro opportunities available NOW.  It's not enough for young players or investors to sit and wait 2 or 3 years for the CSA to get a league in order (which in all likelihood just won't happen in that timeframe).

[theaub]

I do have a lot more faith in this CSA than the CSA from 10 years ago though