Canadian Division 1A - Why We Need It

[Kurt-MTL]

I mean, objectively we 100% are. But I'd argue its far more acceptable in those cases since those are the best leagues in the world.

I get what you're saying and I'm certainly not arguing against having a Canadian league. If it's viable and of a reasonable playing level to make it worthwhile (both in terms of developing players and actually getting enough butts in seats) then by all means. I just don't get the need by some to crap all over MLS/NASL; the US leagues have been carrying pro soccer in Canada for the last decade.

[madmonte]

Is 5,000 the goal?  I think it's the long term minimum amount for a sustainable league.  The CHL often comes up as a comparison but remember they play CHL players about $100 per week plus room and board.  That's not going to cut it to be honest.

 

I know this is a pretty big sidebar but bear with me:

 

Let's say it's a national league and national league sponsors plus TV add up to $1 million / team / year

If you're at 5,000 attendance x 16 home games x $25 average ticket price that's a $2 million gate.

A good team this size may get $500k of concessions, $200k local sponsors and $100k merchandise.

 

That's just about $3.8 million as a team budget which sounds like a fair bit but isn't.

 

Major costs:

Advertising - 500k

Travel - 500k

Ticketing - 320k

Stadium Ops - 250k

Front Office - 600k (pretty bare bones here)

Office costs - 200k

Rent - 200k (being generous)

That's about $2.6 million as fixed costs

 

You're pretty much looking at a team operations budget of no more than $1 million including coaching staff and players if you're not going to have anything left over for profit.

 

That's probably $800k on players tops so even with 20 rostered players they're not making much money here.

 

Anyway long story short here, 5,000 patrons gets you a pretty bare bones operation.  To be anything close to long term sustainable you have to get more than that.  I think at 7,500 you're reaching the minimum for stability actually.

 

I'm just wondering where all these numbers, like travel, are coming from.  I agree with your overall assessment, but wonder if the numbers are coming from somewhere, or are just pulled out of the air, or?

[madmonte]

http://the11.ca/2015/06/01/fc-edmonton-no-contact-at-all-with-canadian-professional-league-backers/

From Steven Sandor.  FC Edmonton has had 0 talks with the league.  So if Ottawa is the same, and Hamilton joins NASL...then, as Sandor states, you have Canadian teams in 3, possibly 4 different leagues all claiming to be Tier 1 (MLS) and Tier 2 (USL, Canada "1A", NASL)  

[jonovision]

^ Even if Edmonton did talk to the backers of this new league, there is no chance they would admit to such.

[Lord Bob]

^ Even if Edmonton did talk to the backers of this new league, there is no chance they would admit to such.

Why wouldn't they? The NASL isn't MLS, the clubs operate fairly independently. NASL teams have never hesitated to admit, even if on the sly, when they've been talking to other leagues before.

I believe the report is completely accurate.

[shermanator]

Also, Calgary Foothills has declined to comment on the new league until it is officially announced.

[ThatDaveCh]

Duane Rollins on Soccer Morning regarding A1:

-Since it's backed by CFL, look for teams in CFL markets that don't already have a team: Calgary, Winnipeg, Regina.
-Hamilton prefers to launch a team in A1 over the NASL
-Hard to have a Canadian League without a Toronto based team, so look for one in there.
-Plan has been brewing for about 3 years, part of the 2026 bid.
-Suspected that there's some NHL ownership groups involved as well.

-Source told Duane that the FIFA scandals are a set back to league planning
-"The NASL and Canada are no longer working as closely as we thought."
- A1 will work alongside MLS and NASL (as we suspected), which likely means Edmonton and Ottawa markets are out.

 

[theaub]

So then Victoria, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Toronto, Quebec, Moncton (or other Ontario team)?

 

I mean sure I guess

[Tuscan]

Aubrey United FC is a lock, I'd say

[theaub]

Wonder how much shirt sponsorship costs

[baulderdash77]

 

I'm just wondering where all the numbers, like travel, are coming from.  I agree with your overall assessment, but wonder if the numbers are coming from somewhere, or are just pulled out of the air?

 

They're reasoned out numbers.

 

Travel comes from my estimate of $1,300 per traveller x 24 travelers per road trip x 16 road trips, rounded off. $1,300 is an estimate of average airfare, double occupancy hotel & per diems.

 

Ticketing comes from when I was on the board of a symphony orchestra at $4 per ticket including ticketmaster fees.

 

Advertising is an estimate/ budget.  For $500k you can get a mixed media campaign including search engine optimization, professional social media management plus radio and print media spots.

[king1010]

Honestly if nasl is still going ahead, i dont see the point in this league.

[lazlo_80]

Really? I could think of a number:

 

From a soccer development, improve the national team, improve soccer in general perspective:

 

- More player development. This league doesn't need to be fully Canadian, especially to start but even saying 3 starters and 3 bench players to start adds 24 + 24 Canadians getting minutes in pro league. Think about the 3 Canadian USL teams right now. Where will those 54 players go if they don't make their respective MLS squad in the next two years? Some of those kids will want to keep playing and this could be where. In 2 years time, alot of those kids will arguably be high level USL calibre players who just can't make MLS. A guy like Brett Levis will be 24 by that point, if the whitecaps think that's too old and he's not an MLS contributor he'll still be a great USL/NASL calibre player that perhaps needs a little longer simply because he was a late developer.

- Put teams in markets that would never get NASL consideration. Partially due to market size, as well as the 25% rule.

- Exposing more people to a professional soccer environment. Whether it's fans, young kids who play, etc. etc.

- With the exception of the u17 and u20 WC we don't do a great job of putting our kids in the shop window. As a place to show off some of our talent, this place wouldn't hurt.

- The potential for more development academies in each of these locations, or at the very least, soccer facilities. 

- Coach development, administration development, heck even developing our own CSA, considering the execs probably don't have experience sanctioning a pro league. These are all good experiences for Canadians to have.

 

i don't live in an NASL market so maybe I don't see things the same way, but a few reasons this league could work are:

 

- access to existing infrastructure. A number of these teams will be able to play in CFL facilities, reducing leasing costs on a second rate facility.

- National sponsorship potential. You can go for bigger sponsors with respect to a national league than the Eddies and Fury could pull in on their own.

- Television exposure. Lets say just the playoffs got covered on TSN 2, would this still not be better than the NASL could ever imagine getting in Canada?

- Money! by the sounds of who seems to be involved these are major investors. Bob Young isn't Man City rich, but more than capable of keeping a soccer team afloat for awhile while it gains traction, heck he kept the TiCats afloat during those dark years of the early 2000s. The expectation is that he's working with like minded rich people.

- Built in marketing oportunties. For example, Ticats get there gear in Hamilton sporting goods stores, now they also get soccer stuff for their team in there. promotion at ticats games, use of existing Ticats media, etc. etc.

- Concentrated LEAGUE marketing efforts. the NASL as a league is virtually unknown in Canada. With the right branding this league could have a bigger foot print in the mind of the average Canadian sports fan pretty quickly which all contributes to above said sponsorship and money making opportunities.

- A league coordinated with the CSA and the provincial associations also can help a ton. Just one bad example, suppose you offered discounted tickets to registered players, the CSA would have a vested interest in making these sort of concessions with a league they run rather than the MLS or NASL.

 

 

I can see people's concerns about whether or not it'll work. But frankly I don't understand the contingent that think it isn't worth doing.

 

Also, who gives a sh**? It's not my money. If it doesn't work, we go back to exactly what we have right now. heck we may even have a few of the leftover succesfull teams get absorbed by another league. But seriously to me there's no reason not to try and do this right now. I'm ecstatic.

[CDNFootballer]

http://the11.ca/2015/06/01/fc-edmonton-no-contact-at-all-with-canadian-professional-league-backers/

From Steven Sandor.  FC Edmonton has had 0 talks with the league.  So if Ottawa is the same, and Hamilton joins NASL...then, as Sandor states, you have Canadian teams in 3, possibly 4 different leagues all claiming to be Tier 1 (MLS) and Tier 2 (USL, Canada "1A", NASL)  

Usl is Tier 3/Division 3.

 

Updated info in the11.ca article says Ottawa Fury FC have not been invited to meetings on a new Canadian league.

[the Humberlands]

I still think the best option is the US structure, at least until we have enough teams to think about breaking away.  Keep slotting cities into NASL and USL, those are pro opportunities available NOW.  It's not enough for young players or investors to sit and wait 2 or 3 years for the CSA to get a league in order (which in all likelihood just won't happen in that timeframe).

 

deleted

[the Humberlands]

Really? I could think of a number:

 

From a soccer development, improve the national team, improve soccer in general perspective:

 

- More player development. This league doesn't need to be fully Canadian, especially to start but even saying 3 starters and 3 bench players to start adds 24 + 24 Canadians getting minutes in pro league. Think about the 3 Canadian USL teams right now. Where will those 54 players go if they don't make their respective MLS squad in the next two years? Some of those kids will want to keep playing and this could be where. In 2 years time, alot of those kids will arguably be high level USL calibre players who just can't make MLS. A guy like Brett Levis will be 24 by that point, if the whitecaps think that's too old and he's not an MLS contributor he'll still be a great USL/NASL calibre player that perhaps needs a little longer simply because he was a late developer.

- Put teams in markets that would never get NASL consideration. Partially due to market size, as well as the 25% rule.

- Exposing more people to a professional soccer environment. Whether it's fans, young kids who play, etc. etc.

- With the exception of the u17 and u20 WC we don't do a great job of putting our kids in the shop window. As a place to show off some of our talent, this place wouldn't hurt.

- The potential for more development academies in each of these locations, or at the very least, soccer facilities. 

- Coach development, administration development, heck even developing our own CSA, considering the execs probably don't have experience sanctioning a pro league. These are all good experiences for Canadians to have.

 

i don't live in an NASL market so maybe I don't see things the same way, but a few reasons this league could work are:

 

- access to existing infrastructure. A number of these teams will be able to play in CFL facilities, reducing leasing costs on a second rate facility.

- National sponsorship potential. You can go for bigger sponsors with respect to a national league than the Eddies and Fury could pull in on their own.

- Television exposure. Lets say just the playoffs got covered on TSN 2, would this still not be better than the NASL could ever imagine getting in Canada?

- Money! by the sounds of who seems to be involved these are major investors. Bob Young isn't Man City rich, but more than capable of keeping a soccer team afloat for awhile while it gains traction, heck he kept the TiCats afloat during those dark years of the early 2000s. The expectation is that he's working with like minded rich people.

- Built in marketing oportunties. For example, Ticats get there gear in Hamilton sporting goods stores, now they also get soccer stuff for their team in there. promotion at ticats games, use of existing Ticats media, etc. etc.

- Concentrated LEAGUE marketing efforts. the NASL as a league is virtually unknown in Canada. With the right branding this league could have a bigger foot print in the mind of the average Canadian sports fan pretty quickly which all contributes to above said sponsorship and money making opportunities.

- A league coordinated with the CSA and the provincial associations also can help a ton. Just one bad example, suppose you offered discounted tickets to registered players, the CSA would have a vested interest in making these sort of concessions with a league they run rather than the MLS or NASL.

 

 

I can see people's concerns about whether or not it'll work. But frankly I don't understand the contingent that think it isn't worth doing.

 

Also, who gives a sh**? It's not my money. If it doesn't work, we go back to exactly what we have right now. heck we may even have a few of the leftover succesfull teams get absorbed by another league. But seriously to me there's no reason not to try and do this right now. I'm ecstatic.

Amen. Take me to the Footy church = your local Canadian League team stadium (tbd)

[reme90]

Really? I could think of a number:

 

From a soccer development, improve the national team, improve soccer in general perspective:

 

- More player development. This league doesn't need to be fully Canadian, especially to start but even saying 3 starters and 3 bench players to start adds 24 + 24 Canadians getting minutes in pro league. Think about the 3 Canadian USL teams right now. Where will those 54 players go if they don't make their respective MLS squad in the next two years? Some of those kids will want to keep playing and this could be where. In 2 years time, alot of those kids will arguably be high level USL calibre players who just can't make MLS. A guy like Brett Levis will be 24 by that point, if the whitecaps think that's too old and he's not an MLS contributor he'll still be a great USL/NASL calibre player that perhaps needs a little longer simply because he was a late developer.

- Put teams in markets that would never get NASL consideration. Partially due to market size, as well as the 25% rule.

- Exposing more people to a professional soccer environment. Whether it's fans, young kids who play, etc. etc.

- With the exception of the u17 and u20 WC we don't do a great job of putting our kids in the shop window. As a place to show off some of our talent, this place wouldn't hurt.

- The potential for more development academies in each of these locations, or at the very least, soccer facilities. 

- Coach development, administration development, heck even developing our own CSA, considering the execs probably don't have experience sanctioning a pro league. These are all good experiences for Canadians to have.

 

i don't live in an NASL market so maybe I don't see things the same way, but a few reasons this league could work are:

 

- access to existing infrastructure. A number of these teams will be able to play in CFL facilities, reducing leasing costs on a second rate facility.

- National sponsorship potential. You can go for bigger sponsors with respect to a national league than the Eddies and Fury could pull in on their own.

- Television exposure. Lets say just the playoffs got covered on TSN 2, would this still not be better than the NASL could ever imagine getting in Canada?

- Money! by the sounds of who seems to be involved these are major investors. Bob Young isn't Man City rich, but more than capable of keeping a soccer team afloat for awhile while it gains traction, heck he kept the TiCats afloat during those dark years of the early 2000s. The expectation is that he's working with like minded rich people.

- Built in marketing oportunties. For example, Ticats get there gear in Hamilton sporting goods stores, now they also get soccer stuff for their team in there. promotion at ticats games, use of existing Ticats media, etc. etc.

- Concentrated LEAGUE marketing efforts. the NASL as a league is virtually unknown in Canada. With the right branding this league could have a bigger foot print in the mind of the average Canadian sports fan pretty quickly which all contributes to above said sponsorship and money making opportunities.

- A league coordinated with the CSA and the provincial associations also can help a ton. Just one bad example, suppose you offered discounted tickets to registered players, the CSA would have a vested interest in making these sort of concessions with a league they run rather than the MLS or NASL.

 

 

I can see people's concerns about whether or not it'll work. But frankly I don't understand the contingent that think it isn't worth doing.

 

Also, who gives a sh**? It's not my money. If it doesn't work, we go back to exactly what we have right now. heck we may even have a few of the leftover succesfull teams get absorbed by another league. But seriously to me there's no reason not to try and do this right now. I'm ecstatic.

All good points, however, we need our 3 major markets to be a part of this league: Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal need to be a part of this.

Not sure why they dont put their reserve squads, or even U18 team in the league. I don't like the CFL connection as I can see that they see this as a revenue source and not for the love of the game. You are going to need deep pockets for 10 years before this league is even profitable.

The NHL teams are a better connection Plus they don't conflict with the summer dolllars. Yes, stadium/facilities is a problem but they have the cash to build something around 5,000 - 10,000 and it makes the experience so much better.

[Keegan]

All good points, however, we need our 3 major markets to be a part of this league: Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal need to be a part of this.

Not sure why they dont put their reserve squads, or even U18 team in the league. I don't like the CFL connection as I can see that they see this as a revenue source and not for the love of the game. You are going to need deep pockets for 10 years before this league is even profitable.

The NHL teams are a better connection Plus they don't conflict with the summer dolllars. Yes, stadium/facilities is a problem but they have the cash to build something around 5,000 - 10,000 and it makes the experience so much better.

 

Because that would make the league a joke to the average Canadian and cause it to fail.  Do you think even 5,000 will come out in Hamilton to watch a match against Toronto II?  It needs to be a completely NEW Toronto team that sticks the finger at TFC and grabs all hardcore support that TFC has missed out on or pissed off.  

 

As for the NHL owners building stadiums I can't see that happening.  NHL may be popular but the owners aren't exactly rolling in dough, certainly not enough to spend cash on stadiums that's why the CFL is involved.

[madmonte]

Toronto can definitely support a second team, Keegan.  I'm more worried about Montreal's ability to have a team sticking the finger at Montreal Impact and having 5000-10000 fans coming out in support.  

 

When they are talking about 8-10 markets, without FC Montreal, I can't see Montreal working if it is included, but I guess we'll see...

(Vancouver is half way between...if I was to vote if Vancouver could support a 2nd team, I'd vote yes, but it would REALLY depend on how it was marketed)

 

The idea of having reserve teams in the new Canadian league is they are a bit of a safety net.  3 squads right off the bat that don't NEED to operate at a profit (and are therefore sustainable, and won't fold in the first couple of seasons, because they have a momma bear)

[lazlo_80]

All good points, however, we need our 3 major markets to be a part of this league: Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal need to be a part of this.

Not sure why they dont put their reserve squads, or even U18 team in the league. I don't like the CFL connection as I can see that they see this as a revenue source and not for the love of the game. You are going to need deep pockets for 10 years before this league is even profitable.

The NHL teams are a better connection Plus they don't conflict with the summer dolllars. Yes, stadium/facilities is a problem but they have the cash to build something around 5,000 - 10,000 and it makes the experience so much better.

 

agree with you on getting the bigger markets involved.

 

With respect to CFL, I think it depends on which owners are involved, you have some real crappy ones and some real good ones. Bob Young took on the Ticats when they were doing pretty bad and playing in a run down facility. He wasn't making any money off them but put a bunch in to get them back on their feet. That sort of patience will be required for this league as well. Also, I would hope that these owners do see this as an eventual revenue source, maybe not right away but these teams need to become profitable

[king1010]

Because that would make the league a joke to the average Canadian and cause it to fail.  Do you think even 5,000 will come out in Hamilton to watch a match against Toronto II?  It needs to be a completely NEW Toronto team that sticks the finger at TFC and grabs all hardcore support that TFC has missed out on or pissed off.  

 

As for the NHL owners building stadiums I can't see that happening.  NHL may be popular but the owners aren't exactly rolling in dough, certainly not enough to spend cash on stadiums that's why the CFL is involved.

 

I think what makes the league an even bigger joke is not having toronto vancouver edmonton montreal or ottawa in the league. As a Hamiltonian who would go to the Hamilton games id rather watch Hamilton play against TFCII then some start up Toronto team or no toronto team at all. There aren't enough players to go around. Some rogue Toronto team wouldn't be able to compete with TFC and TFC II.

 

This isn't MLS and I get that. Not trying to make it something its not. Eventually it may get there but that can't be expected at the moment.

 

 

The AHL Bulldogs always got their biggest crowd (10 000) against hte AHL marlies, and fans were full aware it was "maple leafs 2". Hamilton loves beating up on the big smoke in Toronto and seeing future stars of the big club. They know they aren't MLS caliber and aren't dumb. This rogue Toronto team would pretend to be something its not, it isn't Toronto FC caliber and it wouldn't fool Hamilton fans. Hamilton knows NASL was going to be tier 2 and they were ok with that.

 

Honestly I just dont see the benefits of this league or it even being successful without TFCII VANII MTLII as well as ottawa and Edmonton on board. This league is going to be competing directly with the biggest cities with the already established teams. I dont see it happening. Not enough money or players to go around.

 

If they're going to do it right it should be everyone on board. Not all the leftovers who currently dont have a team.

 

Until then I feel they should just stick to the MLS NASL USL plan. Once all those teams get established then create the Canadian league. I feel this is just ploy to get the World Cup in 2026. "hey look we have our own league"

[Levi Oakey]

increasingly... I am getting more skeptical. What happened to the Easton Report? It was pretty clear a D1 would not work. From what I gather form Richard Whittall, the idea that a partnership with CFL might be on the table was thought of.

 

We still haven't got our D3 leagues going regionally. They are not semi-pro, they are all amateur. I think we need more time to get to Semi-Pro D3.

[Lord Bob]

The Easton Report was hardly gospel and is outdated by several years and several CFL stadia.

I still desperately want Toronto, Vancouver, and Montreal to get second, independent team. The North American "one franchise per city" model is not the only model there is: local derbies will draw media coverage and added interest for both teams. The MLS teams would never need to fear losing corporate box-buyers, or blue-chip sponsors. The independent teams would need to be more, well, local, and hit markets the MLS teams have risen above. I sincerely believe that, if the indie team had a decent stadium and ownership willing to take a short-term loss for a few years, this could be mutually advantageous.

But I also want to believe it.

[ob1]

wow people, how about we walk before we run.

 

Definitely need the big markets, but who says that can't happen in 2 to 3 years down the line?

 

Imagine the league kicks off without a team in Van, Edm, Tor, Ott or Mtl has moderate success for the first 2 to 3 years then grabs the NASL teams, then maybe 2 years later Team from Van & Mtl set up? 

 

I think if the leagues growth is into the major markets it stands a better chance of survival, just need to get it off the ground and expect some lean years. Here's hoping there are some deeeeeep pockets and patient minds involved, 

[ThatDaveCh]

^ Yea I think that needs to be the frame of mind, but I think a team in Toronto early on would bring both a larger market of people into having interest in the league, and would bring some legitimacy to it.