Canadian Division 1A - Why We Need It

[ThatDaveCh]

I want to believe. I want to believe that Canadians will see that in the same way that the CFL isn't the NFL, and that the quality isn't the same as the NFL, that it's a league that's theirs. And if we've got CFL backing, and maybe some national sports network covering it, that maybe they'll embrace. If young players can see that they can play in Can Div1 coming out of uni soccer, then maybe they'll strive for that the same way uni football players do now.

It won't be the MLS. The MLS is two decades ahead of any other league north of Mexico. They've established themselves as the #1 league, and with our Canadian teams in it, it's the undisputed top league north of Mexico. But, if we can be seen to be the best in the country, and have teams beating MLS teams in the VCup, then I think that's the best we can hope for given the major late start.

[Tuscan]

Love the poster.

 

Your point about "if we mandate this league's inferiority to MLS from Day One, then that's a ceiling forever"  I think is already a fait accompli. I see no way NASL or anyone else will overtake MLS in North America. They are established, have the best cities, own their stadiums (mostly) and the richest owners. That would be a hard hill to climb on any one of those fronts much less all combined.

 

Let's just remember, MLS is still inferior to Liga MX. I'd be ok if our national league was seen as being less-skilled than MLS and Liga MX. I am NOT ok with our league being looked at as inferior to MLS or Liga MX. We need our national league to be, in FIFA's league recognition, at the same level as Liga MX and MLS and, for all intents and purposes, the BPL, Serie A, Bundesliga, and La Liga. If we create a national Division 1, it MUST start off with what many will perceive as arrogance in calling itself on-par with MLS and all other top flights across the world. To do any less would destroy the vary existence and purpose of the league.

[lazlo_80]

In it's best case scenario I kind of see the Canadian-MLS relationship similar to the Dutch-Germany relationship. The best players will always go and play in the MLS, but if the Canadian league is producing great talent and producing an exciting product than it's fabulous for everyone.

 

the Dutch teams know they can't compete with the bigger market teams, but it doesn't stop the support or the development.

[theaub]

Let's just remember, MLS is still inferior to Liga MX. I'd be ok if our national league was seen as being less-skilled than MLS and Liga MX. I am NOT ok with our league being looked at as inferior to MLS or Liga MX. We need our national league to be, in FIFA's league recognition, at the same level as Liga MX and MLS and, for all intents and purposes, the BPL, Serie A, Bundesliga, and La Liga. If we create a national Division 1, it MUST start off with what many will perceive as arrogance in calling itself on-par with MLS and all other top flights across the world. To do any less would destroy the vary existence and purpose of the league.

 

If that's the case, do you support independent teams in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver (and Ottawa/Edmonton if they don't leave NASL)?

[David C.]

If that's the case, do you support independent teams in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver (and Ottawa/Edmonton if they don't leave NASL)?

If a Toronto team was independent and not owned by MLSE, I would support it in a heartbeat. Ha!  :-)

[A_Gagne]

Let's just remember, MLS is still inferior to Liga MX. I'd be ok if our national league was seen as being less-skilled than MLS and Liga MX. I am NOT ok with our league being looked at as inferior to MLS or Liga MX. We need our national league to be, in FIFA's league recognition, at the same level as Liga MX and MLS and, for all intents and purposes, the BPL, Serie A, Bundesliga, and La Liga.

 

I totally agree with this statement, but at the same time can't help but feel like this league would be on a much more solid footing with the current MLS ownership groups on board. Moreover, 1/2 of the countries population lives in either the the GTA, Montreal or Vancouver metro area. Any league that doesn't capitalize on these market places is out right going to fail. That leaves a Canadian league with the choice either to try to compete directly with VWFC, Impact and TFC, or involve them in some way.

 

Perhaps the solution would be to give the 3 MLS teams partial ownership in 3 new teams in their market places, but keep the teams separate and team identities separate to avoid the perception of these teams being "reserve" teams.

[Kurt-MTL]

I'll believe it when I see it. Call me a cynic but I can't help but feel that if the level of play isn't at least on par with that of NASL then people won't come out to support..

[Michael Crampton]

Perhaps the solution would be to give the 3 MLS teams partial ownership in 3 new teams in their market places, but keep the teams separate and team identities separate to avoid the perception of these teams being "reserve" teams.

 

Perhaps the solution is not to concentrate on "leagues" and to keep concentrating on building strong clubs, with strong local connections, playing in appropriate sized, sport-specific venues, that exploit the availability of a continental partner whose game is coming on by leaps and bounds -- including the lower leagues -- each and every year?

[king1010]

I totally agree with this statement, but at the same time can't help but feel like this league would be on a much more solid footing with the current MLS ownership groups on board. Moreover, 1/2 of the countries population lives in either the the GTA, Montreal or Vancouver metro area. Any league that doesn't capitalize on these market places is out right going to fail. That leaves a Canadian league with the choice either to try to compete directly with VWFC, Impact and TFC, or involve them in some way.

 

Perhaps the solution would be to give the 3 MLS teams partial ownership in 3 new teams in their market places, but keep the teams separate and team identities separate to avoid the perception of these teams being "reserve" teams.

 

Can't see those 3 MLS cities having MLS teams, Canadian league teams AND USL teams. Its either USL team or Canadian league team. Not enough room for all 3. Two, yes.

 

Call the reserve team whatever you'd like to market it to the Canadian fans. Reality is that MLS is number one. But this can be seen as an alternative to MLS in cities without MLS and like another poster said, a "hipster" local club in touch with the fans in MLS cities.

 

The league doesn't need to claim to be better than MLS. Let it grow organically and then discuss the idea of the CDN MLS teams coming to the domestic league.

[Michael Crampton]

What is better for Canada circa-2025?  What is more likely to actually be buildable (over time) and sustainable long-term?

 

a) 3 MLS teams playing in a league with median per team salary expenditure around $20mil; 5 teams playing in a stable (maybe growing) North American D2 (Eddies, Ottawa, Hammer, Calgary, Winnipeg); AND 6-8 teams playing in D3 in smaller centres like Victoria, Saskatoon, London, KW, Quebec City, Moncton, and Halifax plus 3 more MLS reserve teams.

 

OR

 

(b )  Going all out to keep 8 Canadian D1A teams alive, without the MLS teams, playing for (hopefully) 6-10,000 in CFL stadiums?

 

What is the value of a Canadian league, compared to a growing group of Canadian clubs?  Honestly, I think many overestimate the "I'd rather see them beat a Canadian opponent" effect quite considerably.  Mostly, home fans go to watch their home team, and only care about the away team when there are stars they want to see.

 

The problem with option (b ) is that all those teams have to come online at the same time, and can't be built one-by-one as the market, ownership, and stadium all come together.  If you lose 3 or 4 teams in year three, the whole thing collapses.  And with option (a), you're actually working towards a viable Canadian league.  Plus, we'd have an awesome and totally necessary Voyageur's Cup long before then that brings together all the levels of Canadian pro soccer.

 

What's being proposed scares me.  I hope it succeeds, but if it doesn't, I really, really hope it doesn't set back the other possibility I've outlined.

[tmcmurph]

I think it would come down to say in a decade or so the CSA forcing the 3 MLS clubs to move to the Canadian league after it has established itself for a decade and is on solid footing.

 

The CSA holds the power in all this.

 

The legal ramifications and burnt bridges would be insurmountable if the CSA ever thought of that. This isn't England with 700 clubs at 8 levels all vying to get into the EPL. Sorry but that would never happen.

[Lord Bob]

What is the value of a Canadian league, compared to a growing group of Canadian clubs?

Patriotic pride, of course. Being free of foreign control that leads to things like unequal domestic player rules. Determining our own soccer destiny so we don't get Canadian clubs supporting the American development pyramid because the Americans tell us to. The possibility - and I grant it is only a theoretical possibility, but it is at least that - of someday surpassing the Americans rather than being their permanent vassal.

[Dub Narcotic]

Spot on, @BHCT Mike. What crisis is this league solving? In the last two years we've seen four new Canadian clubs come on-line in the current setup with another rumoured for next year. That doesn't even count L10/PLSQ and the new Calgary PDL team.

[Dub Narcotic]

Patriotic pride, of course. Being free of foreign control that leads to things like unequal domestic player rules. Determining our own soccer destiny so we don't get Canadian clubs supporting the American development pyramid because the Americans tell us to. The possibility - and I grant it is only a theoretical possibility, but it is at least that - of someday surpassing the Americans rather than being their permanent vassal.

 

So, jingoism and a bunch of hand-wavy arguments. Not very convincing.

[Michael Crampton]

Patriotic pride, of course. Being free of foreign control that leads to things like unequal domestic player rules. Determining our own soccer destiny so we don't get Canadian clubs supporting the American development pyramid because the Americans tell us to. The possibility - and I grant it is only a theoretical possibility, but it is at least that - of someday surpassing the Americans rather than being their permanent vassal.

 

Yeah, and I get that.  I'm the sort of person who would (and did) support a Canadian SPL to MLS's EPL even if my team was nowhere near what it could be.  But I'm failing to see what the big advantage is for Canadian soccer and the national team.  And I certainly have strong ideas about which option is more likely to result in more teams playing at a higher level, let alone be sustainable.

[Michael Crampton]

Spot on, @BHCT Mike. What crisis is this league solving? In the last two years we've seen four new Canadian clubs come on-line in the current setup with another rumoured for next year. That doesn't even count L10/PLSQ and the new Calgary PDL team.

 

It solves for "Jeb Brovsky is holding back Canadian soccer" apparently.

 

 (And there's a maaaayyybe legitimate argument that it would have an easier time attracting national sponsors in Canada, I guess?  But again: Voyageur's Cup.)

[Greatest Cockney Rip Off]

Patriotic pride, of course. Being free of foreign control that leads to things like unequal domestic player rules. Determining our own soccer destiny so we don't get Canadian clubs supporting the American development pyramid because the Americans tell us to. The possibility - and I grant it is only a theoretical possibility, but it is at least that - of someday surpassing the Americans rather than being their permanent vassal.

 

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[Lord Bob]

So, jingoism and a bunch of hand-wavy arguments. Not very convincing.

If you aren't persuaded by patriotism then how in God's name did you wind up on a Canadian soccer supporters board?!

The entire reason we watch soccer and care about strangers in weird clothes is emotional.

[ThatDaveCh]

Yeah, and I get that.  I'm the sort of person who would (and did) support a Canadian SPL to MLS's EPL even if my team was nowhere near what it could be.  But I'm failing to see what the big advantage is for Canadian soccer and the national team.  And I certainly have strong ideas about which option is more likely to result in more teams playing at a higher level, let alone be sustainable.

You develop more Cyle Larins by giving young players a stage to play on. The argument can be made that "well, why not go to an MLS camp then, or trial in Europe?" 

Look at the CFL. They get a lot of players coming out of Canadian universities. However, setting up an "SPL to the BPL" allows for formalized grassroots development and academy systems to exist throughout the country.

If we're going to rely on systems that see Canadians as "internationals," along with the USSF 75% American franchise requirement in their leagues, I don't think Canadian soccer will ever come close to being what the Americans are on the international stage.

[TFC07]

What is better for Canada circa-2025?  What is more likely to actually be buildable (over time) and sustainable long-term?

 

a) 3 MLS teams playing in a league with median per team salary expenditure around $20mil; 5 teams playing in a stable (maybe growing) North American D2 (Eddies, Ottawa, Hammer, Calgary, Winnipeg); AND 6-8 teams playing in D3 in smaller centres like Victoria, Saskatoon, London, KW, Quebec City, Moncton, and Halifax plus 3 more MLS reserve teams.

 

OR

 

(b )  Going all out to keep 8 Canadian D1A teams alive, without the MLS teams, playing for (hopefully) 6-10,000 in CFL stadiums?

 

What is the value of a Canadian league, compared to a growing group of Canadian clubs?  Honestly, I think many overestimate the "I'd rather see them beat a Canadian opponent" effect quite considerably.  Mostly, home fans go to watch their home team, and only care about the away team when there are stars they want to see.

 

The problem with option (b ) is that all those teams have to come online at the same time, and can't be built one-by-one as the market, ownership, and stadium all come together.  If you lose 3 or 4 teams in year three, the whole thing collapses.  And with option (a), you're actually working towards a viable Canadian league.  Plus, we'd have an awesome and totally necessary Voyageur's Cup long before then that brings together all the levels of Canadian pro soccer.

 

What's being proposed scares me.  I hope it succeeds, but if it doesn't, I really, really hope it doesn't set back the other possibility I've outlined.

 

(A) is wishful thinking given NASL isn't stable (losing their key markets while being tied with FIFA scandal) and might lose their 2nd division status while USL Pro quality is too low to watch good soccer  (USL Pro is only good to develop young players with upside who aren't ready for MLS or even NASL).   MLS isn't going to expand into Canada anymore while their anti-Canadian stands is putting CSA in position to come up with new plan to develop and maintain quality Canadian players playing higher level than  NASL.  

 

Also, there's no sign of getting more Canadian teams in lower division since USSF gets the final say (probably don't want  Canadian soccer to succeed as much as possible)

 

So why should Canadian soccer let foreign entity (USSF/MLS/NASL/USL Pro/NCAA) dictate Canadian soccer?  

 

It's time to grow up and form our own league where Canadian players get treated better while earning good wage and playing higher level than NASL.   If Canada wants to increase player pool (both in quality and quantity) than there's no better way doing it by forming all Canadian league.  

[shermanator]

Any pyramid that treats Americans as domestics in Canada and Canadians as foreigners is one I do not wish to support. If there are enough like me to make the league sustainable, that's reason enough to get this thing off the ground.

[madmonte]

30% reserve league with the 3/10 MLS teams involved. Without 3 MLS reserve team involved I'd think its tough to get enough teams and enough money to start up the league.

 

Its better than nothing. And if the league does well with TV, attendance, and sponsorship the full CDN MLS teams may join.

 

Gotta crawl before you ball.

 

Let's just remember, MLS is still inferior to Liga MX. I'd be ok if our national league was seen as being less-skilled than MLS and Liga MX. I am NOT ok with our league being looked at as inferior to MLS or Liga MX. We need our national league to be, in FIFA's league recognition, at the same level as Liga MX and MLS and, for all intents and purposes, the BPL, Serie A, Bundesliga, and La Liga. If we create a national Division 1, it MUST start off with what many will perceive as arrogance in calling itself on-par with MLS and all other top flights across the world. To do any less would destroy the vary existence and purpose of the league.

 

You know, to address both points...we probably need the reserve teams to work as we said.  I agree with king.

 

But...from a skill perspective...I don't see them doing very well against FC Edmonton or Ottawa Fury, IF those two were to jump to the new Canadian league and IF they remained at the same skill level.  To assume Vancouver Whitecaps II vs FC Edmonton even happens is at best rampant speculation anyways.

 

But IF that were to be the case...Whitecaps with a bit of a watered down version just BARELY put FC Edmonton out of the V's Cup.  The same to be said for Montreal Impact the year before.  And the MLS Canadian reserve sides aren't doing that well in USL either. 

 

At worst, again a big IF, but IF that's what the league were to look like...either the MLS academy programs get stupidly better...or they won't interfere with your Canadian league experience all that much as they will be on the bottom of the table anyways.  Which would actually lend credence to the league as legitimate.

 

So IF there are reserve teams in this supposed league...let's hope that Roughriders FC (sorry Tuscan, I had to toss that in there just for you) blow them out of the water.

[-Hammer-]

100% they will.

 

The roughriders are probably the only major sporting entertainment in the summer, and they only play 9 times year. I am sure 5000 or so would come out to watch a green soccer team play at their shiny new stadium on a nice summer night.

 

What would be a good average attendance to shoot for? 5000?

 

Smaller teams averaging 3000, larger teams averaging 7000?

 

I disagree, I don't feel this would be an automatic lock.

 

The reason? There has been little effort to sell soccer to Saskatchewan and boatloads of efforts to sell Football there. CIS ball is still big in Saskatchewan and I am unaware of the state of youth soccer in the province, but I suspect enrollment is not high.

 

Hamilton, it's made sense because you had MLS next door given the "I want one too" effect, and a large immigrant population close to several population centers who have held active interest in other soccer leagues. In Regina or Saskatoon, you don't have a lot of population outside the city proper. Make no mistake, the Riders draw from the entire province, because it's the only game in town and Football is a huge part of the culture there. Even many Rider fans will tell you, that franchise should not even exist never mind thrive how it does (and for many, many years while they were building that culture, the Riders tanked huge losses)

 

This is exactly why our national team should move to different venues, as it helps to build that culture and make that interest.

 

It's the same reason NFL Europe failed. Sure, you have all the population in the world, and you have comparably fewer sports to compete with, but Gridiron Football isn't part of the culture there. This is why the NFL is holding occasional games at Wembley, to try an build that culture in London.

 

That said, I don't think it is an impossibility by any means, and if ownership was affiliated with the Riders, I think you''ll have a bleed over synergy effect with a team. However, I would say the jury is out on this one right now.

[A_Gagne]

And I certainly have strong ideas about which option is more likely to result in more teams playing at a higher level, let alone be sustainable.

Teams playing at a higher level is less important than players playing at a higher level IMO. How's this whole MLS thing working out for the average Canadian player?.. debatable.

[ThatDaveCh]

You know, to address both points...we probably need the reserve teams to work as we said.  I agree with king.

 

But...from a skill perspective...I don't see them doing very well against FC Edmonton or Ottawa Fury, IF those two were to jump to the new Canadian league and IF they remained at the same skill level.  To assume Vancouver Whitecaps II vs FC Edmonton even happens is at best rampant speculation anyways.

 

But IF that were to be the case...Whitecaps with a bit of a watered down version just BARELY put FC Edmonton out of the V's Cup.  The same to be said for Montreal Impact the year before.  And the MLS Canadian reserve sides aren't doing that well in USL either. 

 

At worst, again a big IF, but IF that's what the league were to look like...either the MLS academy programs get stupidly better...or they won't interfere with your Canadian league experience all that much as they will be on the bottom of the table anyways.  Which would actually lend credence to the league as legitimate.

 

So IF there are reserve teams in this supposed league...let's hope that Roughriders FC (sorry Tuscan, I had to toss that in there just for you) blow them out of the water.

Begs to ask, would players like Ameobi, Nyassi, and Foredyce continue to play in Edmonton if they were to play in the Canadian Prem? If we're saying that the MLS reserve squads need to play in it, then probably not. That would then create a huge disparity between Canadian Prem teams and the MLS sides in the VCup.