Canadian Division 1A - Why We Need It

[Tuscan]

In my opinion, Canada needs to establish its own independent set of leagues if we ever wish to reach the World Cup again. We also need to completely reform youth soccer from U12 and younger, but that needs a topic created unto itself.

 

This thread is specific to the creation of the Canadian Division 1A, which is essentially the code name for a Canadian top flight league where clubs are only based in Canadian cities. At least, to my knowledge I believe it mandates that clubs only be in Canadian cities. That is less of a point than it is a detail irrelevant to the end goal of the league.

 

I posted in another topic that the creation of a Canadian D-1A isn't going to be a far away dream, but rather a strategic priority that needs to be actioned relatively soon, most likely once a regionalized Canadian D3 is established (with the best club being Saskatoon Athletic FC, 15-time National Champs, fuck all of you

 

A Canadian D-1A would give our players a place they can play not only against top players from the country, but excellent players from across the globe. We need this, it's the only way we can become competitive in world football.

[ted]

In my opinion, Canada needs to establish its own independent set of leagues if we ever wish to reach the World Cup again. We also need to completely reform youth soccer from U12 and younger, but that needs a topic created unto itself.

 

Fine idea. Too bad this is not that thread.

 

 

This thread is specific to the creation of the Canadian Division 1A, which is essentially the code name for a Canadian top flight league where clubs are only based in Canadian cities. At least, to my knowledge I believe it mandates that clubs only be in Canadian cities. That is less of a point than it is a detail irrelevant to the end goal of the league.

 

 

So, is there a reason you cannot participate in the thread that already exists?

 

WTF is a Division 1A and how will it be "top flight" if there is already MLS and NASL?

 

A Canadian D-1A would give our players a place they can play not only against top players from the country, but excellent players from across the globe. We need this, it's the only way we can become competitive in world football.

 

LOL   That is hilarious!

 

You really think that "excellent players from across the globe" will participate in the "Canadian Awesome Super Big League" while MLS is around?!!??!  Really!??!?

 

Let us hear more of your plan.

 

 

[football_world]

In my opinion, Canada needs to establish its own independent set of leagues if we ever wish to reach the World Cup again. We also need to completely reform youth soccer from U12 and younger, but that needs a topic created unto itself.

 

This thread is specific to the creation of the Canadian Division 1A, which is essentially the code name for a Canadian top flight league where clubs are only based in Canadian cities. At least, to my knowledge I believe it mandates that clubs only be in Canadian cities. That is less of a point than it is a detail irrelevant to the end goal of the league.

 

I posted in another topic that the creation of a Canadian D-1A isn't going to be a far away dream, but rather a strategic priority that needs to be actioned relatively soon, most likely once a regionalized Canadian D3 is established (with the best club being Saskatoon Athletic FC, 15-time National Champs, fuck all of you

 

A Canadian D-1A would give our players a place they can play not only against top players from the country, but excellent players from across the globe. We need this, it's the only way we can become competitive in world football.

 

We talked about this extensively in the MLS/USA success thread.  I'm not going to go over all the points we talked about.  But one point that wasn't discussed in detail in that thread was the low attendance of the Whitecaps during the CSL era:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vancouver_Whitecaps_FC

 

As the CSL was our last division 1 league, after the NASL folded, the attendance numbers for the CSL for the Whitecaps was quite bad - an average of 4,771 from 1986 to 1992.  There was a huge attendance drop off from the NASL days.  The problem is, a Canadian 1a league can't outspend the MLS (please check the other thread for MLS/USA success thread for spending discussion).  What is the attendance expectation of a Div 1a league?  Will soccer specific stadiums need to be built?  Who is going to pay for all the soccer specific stadiums and the team salaries?  There is a huge risk for any ownership that tries to establish a Canadian Div 1a.  The irony is, the most wealthy owners who invest in Canadian soccer already have their own MLS teams so it's unlikely they want to see a competitor against them in their own city.

[TFC07]

I personally believe we have resources and interest to support all Canadian league since not every Canadian city is going to have an MLS team while NASL isn't sustainable league where they keep losing their best markets to MLS and rarely make any money.   

 

All we just need for CSA to come up with good business plan how all Canadian league can be profitable to potential investors out there.

[TFC07]

We talked about this extensively in the MLS/USA success thread.  I'm not going to go over all the points we talked about.  But one point that wasn't discussed in detail in that thread was the low attendance of the Whitecaps during the CSL era:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vancouver_Whitecaps_FC

 

As the CSL was our last division 1 league, after the NASL folded, the attendance numbers for the CSL for the Whitecaps was quite bad - an average of 4,771 from 1986 to 1992.  There was a huge attendance drop off from the NASL days.  The problem is, a Canadian 1a league can't outspend the MLS (please check the other thread for MLS/USA success thread for spending discussion).  What is the attendance expectation of a Div 1a league?  Will soccer specific stadiums need to be built?  Who is going to pay for all the soccer specific stadiums and the team salaries?  There is a huge risk for any ownership that tries to establish a Canadian Div 1a.  The irony is, the most wealthy owners who invest in Canadian soccer already have their own MLS teams so it's unlikely they want to see a competitor against them in their own city.

 

What's interest back than compare to now when comes to soccer in Canada?  There's more people who playing and following soccer than ever before. Not only that, there's also demand for professional soccer in this country these days.   

[Lord Bob]

LOL   That is hilarious!

 

You really think that "excellent players from across the globe" will participate in the "Canadian Awesome Super Big League" while MLS is around?!!??!  Really!??!?

I suppose it depends how you define "excellent". Players chase the money and the living conditions. Canada can offer living conditions to compete with anybody, and we won't be able to outbid MLS on the Kakas and the Henrys in any foreseeable future, but six-figure salaries for high-quality foreign players, with the occasional Kenny Miller type making his mill, are by no means inherently impossible.

[ob1]

We talked about this extensively in the MLS/USA success thread.  I'm not going to go over all the points we talked about.  But one point that wasn't discussed in detail in that thread was the low attendance of the Whitecaps during the CSL era:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vancouver_Whitecaps_FC

 

As the CSL was our last division 1 league, after the NASL folded, the attendance numbers for the CSL for the Whitecaps was quite bad - an average of 4,771 from 1986 to 1992.  There was a huge attendance drop off from the NASL days.

 

I'm no expert so maybe someone from Vancouver can help here?

The 86er's moved to Swangard in 1987, a stadium that has a capacity of just over 5,000 is that correct? so by that standard 4,771 really doesn't sound that bad.

 

Was the driver of the move to Swangard low attendance? Or was low attendance driven by the small capacity of Swangard?

Hmm interesting, again I'm no expert so anyone from Vancouver care to weigh in?

[Tuscan]

Mods feel free to delete this or merge it with the existing topic. Honestly didn't see that the other one existed. Once it's off the first page man it's gone to me (usually).

[youllneverwalkalone]

We talked about this extensively in the MLS/USA success thread.  I'm not going to go over all the points we talked about.  But one point that wasn't discussed in detail in that thread was the low attendance of the Whitecaps during the CSL era:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Vancouver_Whitecaps_FC

 

As the CSL was our last division 1 league, after the NASL folded, the attendance numbers for the CSL for the Whitecaps was quite bad - an average of 4,771 from 1986 to 1992.  There was a huge attendance drop off from the NASL days.  The problem is, a Canadian 1a league can't outspend the MLS (please check the other thread for MLS/USA success thread for spending discussion).  What is the attendance expectation of a Div 1a league?  Will soccer specific stadiums need to be built?  Who is going to pay for all the soccer specific stadiums and the team salaries?  There is a huge risk for any ownership that tries to establish a Canadian Div 1a.  The irony is, the most wealthy owners who invest in Canadian soccer already have their own MLS teams so it's unlikely they want to see a competitor against them in their own city.

 

Fantastic analysis. Only one small problem, the 86ers (not Whitecaps) played in a stadium with a 5,000 capacity.

[youllneverwalkalone]

 

 

LOL   That is hilarious!

 

You really think that "excellent players from across the globe" will participate in the "Canadian Awesome Super Big League" while MLS is around?!!??!  Really!??!?

 

Let us hear more of your plan.

 

CFL teams have salary caps of $5m with a television deal to sustain these wage levels. There are a lot of professional soccer players in the world. Technically, MLS only has jobs for 152 of them (19 clubs x 8 international spots).

 

[Vancouversoccerman]

I'm no expert so maybe someone from Vancouver can help here?

The 86er's moved to Swangard in 1987, a stadium that has a capacity of just over 5,000 is that correct? so by that standard 4,771 really doesn't sound that bad.

 

Was the driver of the move to Swangard low attendance? Or was low attendance driven by the small capacity of Swangard?

Hmm interesting, again I'm no expert so anyone from Vancouver care to weigh in?

 

The driver was the fact that a CSL team playing out of BC Place would have been suicide. The budgets and quality of the CSL was at a level far below the original NASL, even when it folded. Swangard (originally a 7,000 capacity stadium) was capped by the City of Burnaby to 5,000 due to the parking restrictions in the area. To this day, Swangard is still the largest available soccer facility in the city after BC Place.

 

As for D1, the CSA can`t make a league materialize out of nowhere. It needs knowledgeable investors who are confident enough in the league structure to take a chance. USL, the NASL and MLS understand the business and the risk involved. Their structures are stable and established. Until the CSA or provincial associations can demonstrate the same savvy, it`s hard to imagine who`s going to pump any cash into this venture.

[ted]

All we just need for CSA to come up with good business plan how all Canadian league can be profitable to potential investors out there.

 

Pardon my memory but, are you new here?

 

The CSA tried this before and it was an epic failure - I should know, I was involved in writing the most recent plan: Building the Dream

 

Every time I go back and look at this (and my previous personal attempt: A New CSL) I am amazed at how little has actually changed since 1999.

[football_world]

Fantastic analysis. Only one small problem, the 86ers (not Whitecaps) played in a stadium with a 5,000 capacity.

 

Yet they weren't able to fill this stadium in the last 4 years in the CSL.  And the 86ers had the better attendance during that time.  The other CSL teams folded with attendance being a major reason.

 

We know we are getting 20K attendance now for our MLS teams in Canada.  Those are NASL type numbers from the 70s and is very healthy now.

[TFC07]

Pardon my memory but, are you new here?

 

The CSA tried this before and it was an epic failure - I should know, I was involved in writing the most recent plan: Building the Dream

 

Every time I go back and look at this (and my previous personal attempt: A New CSL) I am amazed at how little has actually changed since 1999.

 

No, times have changed there's demand for pro soccer in cities like Hamilton and Winnipeg.  Not all these cities are going to play in MLS while NASL isn't working (money wise)  

 

You must not been following what's going on with Hamilton Ti-cats owner having talks with CSA and others for possible all Canadian league. 

[football_world]

 

CFL teams have salary caps of $5m with a television deal to sustain these wage levels. There are a lot of professional soccer players in the world. Technically, MLS only has jobs for 152 of them (19 clubs x 8 international spots).

 

 

We already discussed this in the other thread: http://www.thevoyageurs.org/index.php?/topic/27049-will-mls-and-usa-success-get-canada-back-to-world-cup/page-10:

 

The current MLS salary cap is US $3.1 million per team, excluding DPs (http://www.soccerbyi...fs-figures.html). If you throw in DPs, the average team MLS team salary starts becoming unaffordable for this so called "Division 1a" that may or may not be planned.  The CFL salary cap is currently Can $5 million (http://cfldb.ca/faq/compensation/).  At current exchange rates, this works out to US $4.69 million.

 

Now, the salary cap for MLS was last negotiated in 2010.  They are due for another renegotiation next year with the MLS player's union.  With the increase in attendance and the new TV deal for $90 million per year for the MLS, there is speculation on the Red Patch Boys forum that there is space to raise the salary cap for MLS teams to US $5 million in 2015 (I'm assuming the DP slots remain the same).  I don't know if the salary cap will rise by that much, but US $4 million is a realistic number.

 

In a nutshell, after the renegotiations next year, the MLS salary cap, excluding DPs, could be very close to the CFL salary cap. Now you throw in the DP money and it looks silly if a Canadian "1a" division tries to match the spending of an MLS team.  When you factor in the DP money, the average salary for an MLS team easily exceeds that of a CFL team.

 

 

After salary negotiations next year, the salary cap of an MLS team could be the same as a CFL team or very close.  This excludes DP money.  Once you throw in the DP money, the average MLS team easily outspends the average CFL team.

 

CFL teams won't be able to afford Henry, Villa, Cahill, Defoe, Kaka, Lampard, Beckham (before he retired), Keane, etc.  Not to mention the salaries of Dempsey, Bradley, and Donovan could conceivably be used on a foreign star as well.

 

Frankly, the gap between the MLS and a possible Canadian Div 1a is already quite large before a Canadian Div 1a starts.  This gap will just grow as the MLS salary cap increases and more DP slots are given to MLS teams.  We're not even factoring in soccer specific stadiums.  What does a Canadian Div 1a plan to do with soccer specific stadiums?  That's another chunk of money that needs to be spent.

[Vancouversoccerman]

Yet they weren't able to fill this stadium in the last 4 years in the CSL.  And the 86ers had the better attendance during that time.  The other CSL teams folded with attendance being a major reason.

 

We know we are getting 20K attendance now for our MLS teams in Canada.  Those are NASL type numbers from the 70s and is very healthy now.

 

The 86ers filled the stadium the majority of times they played, in the CSL, APSL, A-League, USL and USSF D2.  The only times they didn`t sell out (or nearly sell out) were on rainy nights (which seems to happen now and then in Vancouver).  When the CSL folded, Vancouver was the only long-term survivor. (Both Toronto and Montreal folded before being resurrected by new owners), You`re really comparing apples to oranges here.

[youllneverwalkalone]

Nobody is disputing that MLS will be a better league to attract foreign players. What some people (I think) are saying, is that you could get enough good foreign content for $5m to sustain fan interest at the gate and on TV.

[ted]

No, times have changed there's demand for pro soccer in cities like Hamilton and Winnipeg.  Not all these cities are going to play in MLS while NASL isn't working (money wise) 

 

Yep, totally agree with you there. MLS is not a good fit (nor will it ever come) to most Canadian cities and NASL is doing OK but still not entirely successful.

 

 

You must not been following what's going on with Hamilton Ti-cats owner having talks with CSA and others for possible all Canadian league.

 

I have been trying to follow it (what small amounts of information there are) and if you have read the first thread on this very topic ( Montagliani’s vision: A Canadian Division 1A that “coexists” with MLS, NASL ) you would have a better idea of why this idea is a non-starter.

 

The best we can do right now is a D2 league if we can bring Edmonton and Ottawa onboard. Otherwise our best option is some form of D3. With the anoouncment of the Whitecaps going USL Pro however the chances of even that happening are growing pretty small.

[TFC07]

Yep, totally agree with you there. MLS is not a good fit (nor will it ever come) to most Canadian cities and NASL is doing OK but still not entirely successful.

 

 

 

I have been trying to follow it (what small amounts of information there are) and if you have read the first thread on this very topic ( Montagliani’s vision: A Canadian Division 1A that “coexists” with MLS, NASL ) you would have a better idea of why this idea is a non-starter.

 

The best we can do right now is a D2 league if we can bring Edmonton and Ottawa onboard. Otherwise our best option is some form of D3. With the anoouncment of the Whitecaps going USL Pro however the chances of even that happening are growing pretty small.

 

You don't understand business side of things.  If there's going to be Canadian league, then it needs to be "first division" league where they can get TV money and sponsors.  Division 2 soccer isn't good enough and we're seeing it with NASL where Canadian clubs aren't going to make money due to lack of  sponsors , attendance and TV money (if they even get TV money)

 

 If you  got potential owners with deep pockets, then should they and we settle less?  Let Canadian league and MLS clubs battle it out and let us decide (through our pockets) which league gets our support.   If Canadian league holds it own then sanction MLS clubs as 2nd division in Canadian soccer pyramid.

 

There isn't going to be three all Canadian league playing each division (we don't have enough market to support all 3 Canadian leagues) so one of division in Canadian soccer is going to be playing in American leagues.   

[football_world]

 If you  got potential owners with deep pockets, then should they and we settle less?  Let Canadian league and MLS clubs battle it out and let us decide (through our pockets) which league gets our support.   If Canadian league holds it own then sanction MLS clubs as 2nd division in Canadian soccer pyramid.

LoL, this is never going to happen. TFC07, you've read the attendance numbers of the CSL and the posts concerning the salary cap. A Division 1a Canadian League will never outspend an MLS team. MLS salaries with DPs already exceed a CFL team salary. And MLS salaries are projected to go higher after next year's renegotiation with the player's union. This doesn't take into consideration the costs for soccer specific stadiums.

Since you can't outspend the MLS, a division 2 league makes the most sense. No ownership group will try to outspend the MLS. If you believe an ownership group in Canada will try to outspend MLS, you're probably dreaming already.

[football_world]

Nobody is disputing that MLS will be a better league to attract foreign players. What some people (I think) are saying, is that you could get enough good foreign content for $5m to sustain fan interest at the gate and on TV.

You're saying the CFL can afford to spend the same amount on a soccer team that it spends on a CFL team?

Also, CFL stadiums don't work. If the average attendance of a Canadian Div 1a league is under 10000, a CFL stadium is too big. And I'm being generous about 10000 because the CSL averaged 4.7k for the 86ers - the attendance for the other teams that folded was worse. MLS showed you have to have soccer specific stadiums to be viable. CFL can't afford to build soccer specific stadiums but using CFL stadiums is not a solution either.

[coppercanuck]

I'd just like to see 8 teams play for a spot in the Canadian Championship. Some sort of path to the big show would help these developing players get some meaningful games.  It's a base.  Something to start with.  "Canadian players need to play more meaningful games."  That phrase has been uttered many times in many places.  If Canadian players on US MLS teams can't be treated as equals, then we have to add more NASL teams or give another method to get to the Canadian Championship, to see how our younger players do under pressure.

[Gordon]

You're saying the CFL can afford to spend the same amount on a soccer team that it spends on a CFL team?

Also, CFL stadiums don't work. If the average attendance of a Canadian Div 1a league is under 10000, a CFL stadium is too big. And I'm being generous about 10000 because the CSL averaged 4.7k for the 86ers - the attendance for the other teams that folded was worse. MLS showed you have to have soccer specific stadiums to be viable. CFL can't afford to build soccer specific stadiums but using CFL stadiums is not a solution either.

You are filling in a lot of blanks here. The "rumour" said TSN, CFL owners (not teams), maybe MLSE and nothing about stadiums. So I read the "rumour" as TV, rich guys and concept. How that concept looks - keeping in mind it is just a rumour - is unknown. It has two prerequisits for success - tv and rich guys - missing from every other proposal, concept or framework that has been developed, but it is just a rumour, and could be completely bogus.

[Trillium]

So CSA Should ask NASL to form a Canadian div 2 domestic league. Eight imports 16 Canadians. Cap league at eight teams, minimum 10 k stadium soccer specific after ten years.

Grandfather MLS franchises with playing out rights. Close down any other pro teams playing in USA leagues includes PDL, and US Pro.

[madmonte]

I find it a little unnerving, honestly, that Ottawa and Edmonton don't consistently get 5k attendance in a legitimate D2 league that includes a team like the Cosmos.  (Granted, when the Cosmos come to town, attendance spikes.  But not every Canadian team will cause an attendance spike).

 

Let's get in depth here.

 

If we have a Canadian "D1" (or whatever you choose to call it)) league, here are my questions.

 

1) Is it amateur, semi-pro or fully pro?  Think carefully.  At fully pro, it HAS to have attendance and sales in every city.  Players cost money.  Can you propose revenue sharing?  Is revenue sharing feasible, would teams that knew they would HAVE to revenue share eventually want to pull out to maximize their profits, instead choosing the NASL route anyways?  That would make Canada a definite D3, D4 regardless.  At the AMATEUR level, the goal of having kids play past a certain age sort of disappears, as eventually a player wants to be paid to continue as a career.

 

2) What are the cities, and how big is the league, to start?  A huge, valid question.  If you are saying Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver, there may be a bit of a CSA battle, but I think you'd still be able to place teams in those cities.  But then you'd have to consider that they'd be in competition with TFC, Whitecaps, etc.  Which is fine.  Now, how many other cities, and where would you place them?  What are your expected attendances?  No matter whether your league is amateur or pro, there are travel costs to consider.

 

3) For your smaller markets, to get it jump started, who are the owners?  What if not enough owners step up?  Is there a contingency plan?  If you build it, they will come?