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Expanded Gold Cup 2025

Obinna

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Obinna Grand Master

Obinna

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I heard Vic on One Soccer talking about Copa America 2024 and the 2026 World Cup, amongst other things. 

In that interview, he mentioned that FIFA was looking at a "test" event ahead of the World Cup, similar to what Qatar did with the Arab Cup.

With that in mind, I think an "expanded" Gold Cup could certainly be the so-called test event. Although Gold Cup doesn't have to be expanded to serve as a test event, doing so would give the host counties the opportunity to play competitive matches against teams outside of concacaf. Canada is hoping to pay in Copa America 2024 for this reason, so more of that would be a good thing for us, along with the United States and Mexico, who won't get the benefit of qualifying games.

The Arab Cup in 2021 was a 16-team tournament held in 6 venues in 4 different locations. The 2022 World Cup has been played in 8 venues in 5 different locations. Considering that, I don't think every venue will necessarily be tested, but let's continue on the premise that Canada, USA, and Mexico will each be tested as hosts. 

Here is my idea for an expanded Gold Cup:

CONCACAF - 16 teams

CONMEBOL - 10 teams

INVITES - 6 teams (i'll pick a mix of teams at random - Japan (history of being invited to CA), Qatar (history of being invited to CA & GC), Australia (was previously invited to CA but had to withdraw), China (ditto), New Zealand (probably eager to get top matches), South Korea (seems to be no Asian Cup for 2025 - perhaps they are keen to get top matches)

Mock draw of 32 team Gold Cup 2025

Pot 1

  1. USA
  2. Mexico 
  3. Canada
  4. Brazil
  5. Argentina 
  6. Uruguay
  7. Colombia
  8. Peru

Pot 2

  1. Japan
  2. South Korea
  3. Australia
  4. Chile
  5. Ecuador
  6. Costa Rica
  7. Paraguay
  8. Venezuela 

Pot 3

  1. Panama
  2. Jamaica 
  3. Qatar
  4. Honduras
  5. El Salvador
  6. China
  7. Haiti
  8. Curacao 

Pot 4

  1. New Zealand
  2. T&T
  3. Guatemala
  4. Antigua and Barbuda
  5. Suriname
  6. Saint Kitts and Nevis
  7. Nicaragua
  8. Dominican Republic

Group A

  1. USA
  2. Venezuela
  3. Panama
  4. Dominican Republic

Group B

  1. Mexico
  2. Paraguay
  3. China
  4. Nicaragua

Group C

  1. Canada
  2. Ecuador
  3. Qatar
  4. St. Kitts and Nevis

Group D

  1. Brazil
  2. Costa Rica
  3. Jamaica
  4. Suriname

Group E

  1. Argentina
  2. Chile
  3. Honduras
  4. Antigua & Barbuda

Group F

  1. Uruguay
  2. Australia 
  3. El Salvador
  4. Guatemala

Group G

  1. Colombia
  2. South Korea
  3. Haiti
  4. T&T

Group H

  1. Peru
  2. Japan
  3. Curacao 
  4. New Zealand

 

Some thoughts:

  • Never planned to make it a CONCACAF-CONMEBOL-AFC sort of affair, but that's what I landed on since CAF has ACON and UEFA ...well they have no shortage of high profile games. I like how it worked out, though.
  • What a chance for the teams in CONCACAF to prove themselves against the rest of the world! The benefit would clearly go beyond Canada, USA, and Mexico. This is fully in-line with goal of uplifting the entire region.
  • If I am Japan, South Korea, or Australia, I would be very happy to play against the likes of Peru, New Zealand, Colombia, and Uruguay in competitive group stage games, as these are the level of teams they'd expect to face at the 2026 WC. 
  • This would be a great way to advertise the region to the world! 
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Free kick Grand Master

Free kick

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On 12/7/2022 at 3:12 PM, VinceA said:

We should just bring back the Confederations Cup

Was the Confederations cup ever “Officially” eliminated?  To my knowledge, No. Its timing would have coincided with the global pandemic.  So that might have explained why the most recent edition  wasnt played

Edited by Free kick
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Obinna Grand Master

Obinna

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It would be interesting to bring the Confederations Cup back. The 8-team format could be maintained by dropping the WC winner entry (which kind of made up the numbers, just like the host, since both aren't a confederation winner)

It could look like this:

  1. USA (host)
  2. Mexico (host)
  3. Canada (host)
  4. UEFA
  5. CONMEBOL
  6. AFC
  7. CAF
  8. OFC

@VinceAThe downside is the lack of games. If the point is to test stadiums and host cities you don't get a whole lot of testing. This was fine with a 32 team World Cup, but we are at 48 now with a lot more host cities, spread across the entire North American continent at that. I am definitely not against Confederations Cup, because it would give Canada some great matches, but this is a possible road block. Even the Arab Cup had 16 teams.

Maybe they could do a 16 team confederations cup, but at that point why not use the Gold Cup, since it's already happening in 2025 regardless. Furthermore, the confederations cup (presumably the year before) would be the 3rd tournament of the summer for teams like Canada, which is probably one tournament too many. That's another con. 

With that said though...

  1. USA (host)
  2. Mexico (host)
  3. Canada (host)
  4. UEFA
  5. CONMEBOL
  6. AFC
  7. CAF
  8. OFC
  9. WC winner
  10. UEFA runner up
  11. CONMEBOL runner up
  12. AFC runner up
  13. CAF runner up
  14. OFC runner up? (not likely..)  Gold Cup winner (not a host)
  15. UEFA NL Champion?
  16. CONCACAF NL winner (not a host)

Guess that could work.......?

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Unnamed Trialist Grand Master

Unnamed Trialist

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As @Obinna says, a test event is to test venues and organisation. Would they do a Gold Cup in 2025 with all grass installed in stadiums? Because he specifically said that maybe so many friendlies was not as important for a National Team as the quality of the clubs the players were in. 

Anyways, the Qatar friendly-frenzy formula is obviously not a strong one. You need to play a dozen to 15 competitive matches, or tough friendlies, in the year and a bit before the WC, to be sharp.

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Olympique_de_Marseille Grand Master

Olympique_de_Marseille

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I think this won't happen and we will see a series of smaller test events.

Examples:

Mexico would be a great host for the FIFA Club World in December 2025 or January 2026.

If FIFA ever gets around to creating the Women's Club World Cup, Canada could easily host that prior to summer 2026.

A Gold Cup in the summer of 2025 with a whole group hosted in Mexico and a whole group in Canada would help.

Sorry @Obinna but I just don't see an expanded Gold Cup 2025 happening given a 16-team Copa America 2024. I'd love to be wrong though.

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Obinna Grand Master

Obinna

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33 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

I think this won't happen and we will see a series of smaller test events.

Examples:

Mexico would be a great host for the FIFA Club World in December 2025 or January 2026.

If FIFA ever gets around to creating the Women's Club World Cup, Canada could easily host that prior to summer 2026.

A Gold Cup in the summer of 2025 with a whole group hosted in Mexico and a whole group in Canada would help.

Sorry @Obinna but I just don't see an expanded Gold Cup 2025 happening given a 16-team Copa America 2024. I'd love to be wrong though.

You're probably correct. Testing venues is the main goal and could be accomplished in some of the ways you describe. I also agree that confirmation of a 16-team CA takes away the incentive to expand the GC in 25. A lot of the teams will have just played against each other the summer before. 

It would be cool, though!  

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Watchmen Grand Master

Watchmen

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4 hours ago, Free kick said:

Was the Confederations cup ever “Officially” eliminated?  To my knowledge, No. Its timing would have coincided with the global pandemic.  So that might have explained why the most recent edition  wasnt player

I've heard that it was basically a case of knowing the venues in Qatar wouldn't be ready, so they just quietly dropped it for a cycle.

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Obinna Grand Master

Obinna

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13 hours ago, CanadianSoccerFan said:

Confed Cup was scrapped to make room for Infantino's 24 team club world cup idea which never ended up happening due to covid and politics.  

https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/organisation/fifa-council/media-releases/fifa-council-votes-for-the-introduction-of-a-revamped-fifa-club-world-cup

I hope that doesn't become the "test" event. 

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TGAA_Star Veteran

TGAA_Star

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On 12/7/2022 at 3:03 PM, Obinna said:

I heard Vic on One Soccer talking about Copa America 2024 and the 2026 World Cup, amongst other things. 

In that interview, he mentioned that FIFA was looking at a "test" event ahead of the World Cup, similar to what Qatar did with the Arab Cup.

With that in mind, I think an "expanded" Gold Cup could certainly be the so-called test event. Although Gold Cup doesn't have to be expanded to serve as a test event, doing so would give the host counties the opportunity to play competitive matches against teams outside of concacaf. Canada is hoping to pay in Copa America 2024 for this reason, so more of that would be a good thing for us, along with the United States and Mexico, who won't get the benefit of qualifying games.

The Arab Cup in 2021 was a 16-team tournament held in 6 venues in 4 different locations. The 2022 World Cup has been played in 8 venues in 5 different locations. Considering that, I don't think every venue will necessarily be tested, but let's continue on the premise that Canada, USA, and Mexico will each be tested as hosts. 

Here is my idea for an expanded Gold Cup:

CONCACAF - 16 teams

CONMEBOL - 10 teams

INVITES - 6 teams (i'll pick a mix of teams at random - Japan (history of being invited to CA), Qatar (history of being invited to CA & GC), Australia (was previously invited to CA but had to withdraw), China (ditto), New Zealand (probably eager to get top matches), South Korea (seems to be no Asian Cup for 2025 - perhaps they are keen to get top matches)

Mock draw of 32 team Gold Cup 2025

Pot 1

  1. USA
  2. Mexico 
  3. Canada
  4. Brazil
  5. Argentina 
  6. Uruguay
  7. Colombia
  8. Peru

Pot 2

  1. Japan
  2. South Korea
  3. Australia
  4. Chile
  5. Ecuador
  6. Costa Rica
  7. Paraguay
  8. Venezuela 

Pot 3

  1. Panama
  2. Jamaica 
  3. Qatar
  4. Honduras
  5. El Salvador
  6. China
  7. Haiti
  8. Curacao 

Pot 4

  1. New Zealand
  2. T&T
  3. Guatemala
  4. Antigua and Barbuda
  5. Suriname
  6. Saint Kitts and Nevis
  7. Nicaragua
  8. Dominican Republic

Group A

  1. USA
  2. Venezuela
  3. Panama
  4. Dominican Republic

Group B

  1. Mexico
  2. Paraguay
  3. China
  4. Nicaragua

Group C

  1. Canada
  2. Ecuador
  3. Qatar
  4. St. Kitts and Nevis

Group D

  1. Brazil
  2. Costa Rica
  3. Jamaica
  4. Suriname

Group E

  1. Argentina
  2. Chile
  3. Honduras
  4. Antigua & Barbuda

Group F

  1. Uruguay
  2. Australia 
  3. El Salvador
  4. Guatemala

Group G

  1. Colombia
  2. South Korea
  3. Haiti
  4. T&T

Group H

  1. Peru
  2. Japan
  3. Curacao 
  4. New Zealand

 

Some thoughts:

  • Never planned to make it a CONCACAF-CONMEBOL-AFC sort of affair, but that's what I landed on since CAF has ACON and UEFA ...well they have no shortage of high profile games. I like how it worked out, though.
  • What a chance for the teams in CONCACAF to prove themselves against the rest of the world! The benefit would clearly go beyond Canada, USA, and Mexico. This is fully in-line with goal of uplifting the entire region.
  • If I am Japan, South Korea, or Australia, I would be very happy to play against the likes of Peru, New Zealand, Colombia, and Uruguay in competitive group stage games, as these are the level of teams they'd expect to face at the 2026 WC. 
  • This would be a great way to advertise the region to the world! 

I actually would love this for a Gold Cup 

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Kent Grand Master

Kent

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This is a stupid/meaningless worry, but teams invited to our continental championship from outside our confederation makes me nervous. I don't want CONCACAF to be the first confederation to have a champion that isn't part of their confederation. Bringing in all 10 nations from CONMEBOL (plus some decent/good teams from Asia) would make it very unlikely that a CONCACAF team wins.

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TGAA_Star Veteran

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On 12/7/2022 at 4:47 PM, Obinna said:

It would be interesting to bring the Confederations Cup back. The 8-team format could be maintained by dropping the WC winner entry (which kind of made up the numbers, just like the host, since both aren't a confederation winner)

It could look like this:

  1. USA (host)
  2. Mexico (host)
  3. Canada (host)
  4. UEFA
  5. CONMEBOL
  6. AFC
  7. CAF
  8. OFC

@VinceAThe downside is the lack of games. If the point is to test stadiums and host cities you don't get a whole lot of testing. This was fine with a 32 team World Cup, but we are at 48 now with a lot more host cities, spread across the entire North American continent at that. I am definitely not against Confederations Cup, because it would give Canada some great matches, but this is a possible road block. Even the Arab Cup had 16 teams.

Maybe they could do a 16 team confederations cup, but at that point why not use the Gold Cup, since it's already happening in 2025 regardless. Furthermore, the confederations cup (presumably the year before) would be the 3rd tournament of the summer for teams like Canada, which is probably one tournament too many. That's another con. 

With that said though...

  1. USA (host)
  2. Mexico (host)
  3. Canada (host)
  4. UEFA
  5. CONMEBOL
  6. AFC
  7. CAF
  8. OFC
  9. WC winner
  10. UEFA runner up
  11. CONMEBOL runner up
  12. AFC runner up
  13. CAF runner up
  14. OFC runner up? (not likely..)  Gold Cup winner (not a host)
  15. UEFA NL Champion?
  16. CONCACAF NL winner (not a host)

Guess that could work.......?

I actually would love for the Confederations Cup to be brought back and if it was hosted in USA, Canada or Mexico I wouldn't mind but preferably I would want it in Canada

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Olympique_de_Marseille Grand Master

Olympique_de_Marseille

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On 12/7/2022 at 6:03 PM, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

Examples:

Mexico would be a great host for the FIFA Club World...

Sorry @Obinna but I just don't see an expanded Gold Cup 2025 happening given a 16-team Copa America 2024. I'd love to be wrong though.

 

On 12/7/2022 at 6:41 PM, Obinna said:

You're probably correct. Testing venues is the main goal and could be accomplished in some of the ways you describe....

Well well well.

With this new 32 team Club World Cup in 2025, as @narduch said, this could be the big test event.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-club-world-cup/story/4832860/fifa-to-launch-new-club-world-cup-with-32-teams-in-2025

Maybe this will hosted solely in the USA and the (possible) July/August 2025 Gold Cup will go to Canada &/or Mexico.

Edited by Olympique_de_Marseille
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TGAA_Star Veteran

TGAA_Star

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4 minutes ago, Olympique_de_Marseille said:

 

Well well well.

With this new 32 team club World Cup in 2025, as @narduch said, this could be the big test event.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/fifa-club-world-cup/story/4832860/fifa-to-launch-new-club-world-cup-with-32-teams-in-2025

Maybe this will hosted solely in the USA and the (possible) July/August 2025 Gold Cup will go to Canada &/or Mexico.

If FIFA Club World Cup you host it in the USA, it is only fair that Canada and Mexico co host the 2025 CONCACAF Gold Cup together as co hosts 

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InglewoodJack Grand Master

InglewoodJack

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They’re gonna do the club world *and* the gold cup in the same year? Between now and the 2026 World Cup, a player like Alphonso Davies is going to play nations league, finish his season at Bayern, go into the Gold Cup, start a new season at Bayern, then Copa America in 2024, then another season at Bayern, then nations league and a Gold Cup in 2025, then a club World Cup, then another season at Bayern, then a World Cup. When exactly do these players rest?

 

just used him as an example because I assume FCB will qualify for this club World Cup, but between now and august 2026, players will have 5 major tournaments, two Nations Leagues and 3 full regular seasons. And not to forget domestic cups too.

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Unnamed Trialist Grand Master

Unnamed Trialist

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6 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

They’re gonna do the club world *and* the gold cup in the same year? Between now and the 2026 World Cup, a player like Alphonso Davies is going to play nations league, finish his season at Bayern, go into the Gold Cup, start a new season at Bayern, then Copa America in 2024, then another season at Bayern, then nations league and a Gold Cup in 2025, then a club World Cup, then another season at Bayern, then a World Cup. When exactly do these players rest?

just used him as an example because I assume FCB will qualify for this club World Cup, but between now and august 2026, players will have 5 major tournaments, two Nations Leagues and 3 full regular seasons. And not to forget domestic cups too.

If Canada leaves some players off certain FIFA window call-ups, then this could work. But I am not sure it really has a lot to do with preparing 2026.

Point is: Qatar did scores of friendlies because they had few official matches and that method was ineffective. We need to decide what is most effective for us: doing major tournaments with competitive matches, or doing the maximum number of friendlies over the 6-8 FIFA windows. 

I'd advocate for a combination, but fact is that the important group prep is really the 8-10 months leading to the 2026 World Cup. While it may be pleasant to be competing, doing so 2-3 years in advance of 2026 is no preparation at all. None of the above tournaments will be played in those critical previous months to 2026, whatever you do, you have to really focus on your post-tournament prep.

The most important thing for us would be to be exempt from Concacaf Nations League in the year before the World Cup, and to max out on friendlies with the nations we most need to play against to get ready. 

Remember this: even if we do go to Copa America, or have invitees to the Gold Cup, we still may not get the matches we want. We could get one Brazil match in a Copa America group stage, with Peru and Venezuela, and get knocked out; or get to the next round and play Chile. Two years before the World Cup. 

Same with the Gold Cup, the draw could be just as much of a dud as the current set-up. Copa America and GCs, that could get us 3-4 teams that are challenging and really different from what we already see.

All that suggests that we can go nuts accepting invites to tournaments, but that does not prepare us for the WC very much. And less so for the inevitable situation where the toughest teams we'll face are from UEFA. 

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1 hour ago, InglewoodJack said:

They’re gonna do the club world *and* the gold cup in the same year? Between now and the 2026 World Cup, a player like Alphonso Davies is going to play nations league, finish his season at Bayern, go into the Gold Cup, start a new season at Bayern, then Copa America in 2024, then another season at Bayern, then nations league and a Gold Cup in 2025, then a club World Cup, then another season at Bayern, then a World Cup. When exactly do these players rest?

 

just used him as an example because I assume FCB will qualify for this club World Cup, but between now and august 2026, players will have 5 major tournaments, two Nations Leagues and 3 full regular seasons. And not to forget domestic cups too.

Yeah but I'm sure every player wants to play in as many major tournaments as possible especially if they wanna become more battle tested

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InglewoodJack Grand Master

InglewoodJack

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2 hours ago, TGAA_Star said:

Yeah but I'm sure every player wants to play in as many major tournaments as possible especially if they wanna become more battle tested

Absolutely not- I think it was De Bruyne that basically said some of these tournaments are pointless and players prefer the breaks, because they barely get a chance to have any sort of rest. A few others may have said similar things as well.

 

To answer this post and @Unnamed Trialist’s, I’m not considering this from the POV of the national team- all good points made, I’m looking at this from the perspective that these players are going to be run into the ground, and if we want to tie it back to the NT- most stars prioritize club over country as that’s their job, so if they take their foot off the pedal, it won’t be with their club, it’ll be with their country.

 

We want our players to play for top teams, but the other side of that coin is that means they will be playing a gruelling season, they will be going deep into their domestic cup, they will play champions league, and they will likely qualify for this Club World Cup. Then you add in international duties- 2 Gold cups, one Copa America and a World Cup within the next 3.5 years, not to mention as UT said, we will be hunting elite friendlies to play, and we’re talking about a shocking high number of games played with very little rest time.

Look at Bayern’s schedule. 34 regular season games. 6 champions league group stage games. Up to 4 knockout games. Up to 6 pokal games. That’s 50 games. Then add stuff like uefa super Cup, domestic super cup, and then on top of that, a club World Cup (up to 5 games?). Then you factor in about 10-15 or so national team games, and he could play upwards of 60 games in a calendar year while healthy. that’s over a game a week, every single week for a year. And a player of his stature- it’ll be the same for Eustaquio, David, Tajon, etc- will have to do this every year between now and 2026. 
 

I know their coaches will give them some rest days as they currently do, but that is a lot of soccer for one player to play.

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Bison44 Grand Master

Bison44

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53 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Absolutely not- I think it was De Bruyne that basically said some of these tournaments are pointless and players prefer the breaks, because they barely get a chance to have any sort of rest. A few others may have said similar things as well.

 

What????  De Bruyne doesnt wants to pick and choose when he reps his country and would rather rest than go to play in a pointless tourney???  Get out the pitchforks and torches!!!  This guy needs to be shunned or kicked off the team ASAP.  I've never heard of such disrespect...excuse me while I clutch my pearls a little tighter.  😉

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InglewoodJack Grand Master

InglewoodJack

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11 minutes ago, Bison44 said:

What????  De Bruyne doesnt wants to pick and choose when he reps his country and would rather rest than go to play in a pointless tourney???  Get out the pitchforks and torches!!!  This guy needs to be shunned or kicked off the team ASAP.  I've never heard of such disrespect...excuse me while I clutch my pearls a little tighter.  😉

???

I don't care that he said it, I'm just refuting the idea that players want to play as many matches as possible to stay "battle tested"- that simply isn't true. Players in top leagues prioritize their club because that's who pays them, and specifically, they care about winning their league and winning the champions league. Things like Nations League or this new Club World Cup doesn't do much for players except wear them down. Besides, the teams who will go deep into this club world cup are likely going to be the very same teams that go deep into champions league, so it isn't like winning that tournament gives players glory they couldn't find elsewhere- Club World Cup sounds like it'll basically be champions league teams + a few Brazillian teams + a bunch of teams that couldn't make Champions League ever. You think Alphonso Davies is excited to play the round of32 match against TFC?

Edited by InglewoodJack
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Bison44 Grand Master

Bison44

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Easy now....just quoting you because you brought up the DeBryune example.  Elsewhere the board acts like players wanting rests, not repping the shirt at every opportunity is something they have never heard of before and its unforgiveable. I can see some older guy staking a pass at the chance to be further "battle tested" as opposed to being ready for next season.  

It will be tough the next few years, managing who gets and doesnt get called to all these tournies and friendlies as you mentioned.  We want to win, bring up our rankings, get top level experience etc, push our program forward, but players can get burnt out and it'll affect their careers.  But Heaven help the guy who wants a gold cup off to rehab eh??  Seriously though, that kind of thing should help Herdman develop added depth by working newish players into the CDN program.  

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Fullback Collaborator

Fullback

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2 hours ago, Bison44 said:

Easy now....just quoting you because you brought up the DeBryune example.  Elsewhere the board acts like players wanting rests, not repping the shirt at every opportunity is something they have never heard of before and its unforgiveable. I can see some older guy staking a pass at the chance to be further "battle tested" as opposed to being ready for next season.  

It will be tough the next few years, managing who gets and doesnt get called to all these tournies and friendlies as you mentioned.  We want to win, bring up our rankings, get top level experience etc, push our program forward, but players can get burnt out and it'll affect their careers.  But Heaven help the guy who wants a gold cup off to rehab eh??  Seriously though, that kind of thing should help Herdman develop added depth by working newish players into the CDN program.  

There is a difference between not wanting to play Nations League and not being there for qualifying but expecting a spot on the World Cup squad.

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