CPL reserve teams & Academies

[Ansem]

 

[BenFisk'sBiggestFan]

I have been saying for a while that the AMSL should be a semi pro league. Obviously they aren’t yet, but this is a great first step. It is a very high quality league, and the additions of Edmonton and Cavalry will be great. Maybe the AMSL can step up their marketing a bit and make a go of it.

[Ansem]

1 hour ago, BenFisk'sBiggestFan said:

I have been saying for a while that the AMSL should be a semi pro league. Obviously they aren’t yet, but this is a great first step. It is a very high quality league, and the additions of Edmonton and Cavalry will be great. Maybe the AMSL can step up their marketing a bit and make a go of it.

Best case scenario is CPL acquiring it, upgrading to semi-pro D3 with a rebrand "League 1 Alberta"

[Ams1984]

58 minutes ago, Ansem said:

Best case scenario is CPL acquiring it, upgrading to semi-pro D3 with a rebrand "League 1 Alberta"

That would be great. In fact, I’m hoping that it’s the direction that the CPL takes around the country in order to foster the development of a national second division, even if it’s divided up regionally (which I think it’d have to be)

[Rintaran]

13 hours ago, Ansem said:

Best case scenario is CPL acquiring it, upgrading to semi-pro D3 with a rebrand "League 1 Alberta"

Sounds like a good move. With the improvements we've started seeing to the Pacific Coast Soccer League, a purchase & push there could move it toward "League1 BC"

 

Victoria Highlanders (PDL) now have teams playing in VISL (both a div-1 partner and a branded div-2), in addition to their PCSL reserve team. Almost seems like a natural partnership could be reached between Pacific and Highlanders.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Rintaran

[Initial B]

I'm not sure about rebranding any Div 3 league to be "League 1 <Insert region here>". If the CPL is all about individual identity then the leagues underneath should be like that as well. It's okay for the CPL to acquire the leagues, but they should each have an individual character.

Looking at the size of Alberta, I never realized that it's almost 1000 km from Grande Prairie to Medicine Hat. If we wanted to keep travel costs manageable at Div 3, then Alberta should be it's own League. Manitoba and Saskatchewan could probably get away with a League between the two of them (population and distance-wise). Likewise for the Maritimes and Newfoundland (so long as they got subsidized by CPL for Ferry trips).

So at the Div 3 Level, Canada would have:

• BCRT3 - Whenever they get it off the ground
• AMSL - Seems like a logical next step
• Prairie Div 3 - To handle SK/MB
• L1O - Which might be subdivided further into individual East and West
• PLSQ - All of Quebec
• Atlantic Div 3 - For NB, NS, PEI, and NL.

CPL, CSA, and provincial associations would do well to build Div 1 and Div 3 concurrently, and when the time is right, perhaps take the worst performing Div 1 teams and the best performing Div 3 teams and create two or three Regional Div 2 Leagues between them. 

• Div 1 - National (8 clubs, 28 games, balanced schedule, 2 relegated)
• Div 2 - East and West (each with 8 clubs, 28 games, balanced schedule, 1 promoted, 1 relegated)
• Div 3 - Provincial (6 Leagues, various number of clubs and games, Tournament to determine promotions from East and West)

That's about as bare bones as a pyramid structure can get. The question then becomes, can Canada publicly and corporately support 24 professional teams?

More importantly, would those Div 3 clubs work as academies for the CPL clubs, with affiliations like the USL has with MLS?

<Edit: Just realized Kent mentioned the Div 1/3 idea earlier. Give credit where credit is due.>

Edited March 14, 2019 by Initial B

[dyslexic nam]

3 minutes ago, Initial B said:

Div 1 - National (8 clubs, 28 games, balanced schedule, 2 relegated)

Div 2 - East and West (each with 8 clubs, 28 games, balanced schedule, 1 promoted, 1 relegated)

Div 3 - Provincial (6 Leagues, various number of clubs and games, Tournament to determine promotions from East and West)

That is the kind of breakdown I generally think is viable.  Nothing wrong with having an east/west breakdown at D2 as travel costs for a national-type league would likely be prohibitive. 

 

[Copes]

1 hour ago, Initial B said:

I'm not sure about rebranding any Div 3 league to be "League 1 <Insert region here>". If the CPL is all about individual identity then the leagues underneath should be like that as well. It's okay for the CPL to acquire the leagues, but they should each have an individual character.

Looking at the size of Alberta, I never realized that it's almost 1000 km from Grande Prairie to Medicine Hat. If we wanted to keep travel costs manageable at Div 3, then Alberta should be it's own League. Manitoba and Saskatchewan could probably get away with a League between the two of them (population and distance-wise). Likewise for the Maritimes and Newfoundland (so long as they got subsidized by CPL for Ferry trips).

So at the Div 3 Level, Canada would have:

• BCRT3 - Whenever they get it off the ground
• AMSL - Seems like a logical next step
• Prairie Div 3 - To handle SK/MB
• L1O - Which might be subdivided further into individual East and West
• PLSQ - All of Quebec
• Atlantic Div 3 - For NB, NS, PEI, and NL.

CPL, CSA, and provincial associations would do well to build Div 1 and Div 3 concurrently, and when the time is right, perhaps take the worst performing Div 1 teams and the best performing Div 3 teams and create two or three Regional Div 2 Leagues between them. 

• Div 1 - National (8 clubs, 28 games, balanced schedule, 2 relegated)
• Div 2 - East and West (each with 8 clubs, 28 games, balanced schedule, 1 promoted, 1 relegated)
• Div 3 - Provincial (6 Leagues, various number of clubs and games, Tournament to determine promotions from East and West)

That's about as bare bones as a pyramid structure can get. The question then becomes, can Canada publicly and corporately support 24 professional teams?

More importantly, would those Div 3 clubs work as academies for the CPL clubs, with affiliations like the USL has with MLS?

This post right here is about as well thought-out as any proposal I've seen, and is in line with my expectations for where we might be in 10-15 years if things go well for the first decade of CPL. I don't think we will see more than the 16-20 total clubs by 2029  - but perhaps we will have the Provincial (or Regional) leagues established in D3. 

My only hesitation is how you filter the regional leagues with year-over-year turnover from less regional leagues. If the relegated D2 club is from Quebec, but the promoted club is from BC... I guess you just have fluctuating numbers of teams each year (or fluctuating East / West borders in D2).

Edited March 14, 2019 by Copes

[shamrock]

It's not as simple as just rebranding existing leagues. There's standards in place, clubs need budgets even as amateurs or semi-pro's. They tried it in BC, but the clubs didn't want to participate (at least, not enough). Even after 5 years (or more?) the PLSQ is still very small. Only in Ontario D3 has been a huge succes, and they have existing clubs, infrastructure, players and relatively small distances. 

Don't get me wrong I'm all for these regional D3 leagues spread over the country, they're needed to supply the CanPL with talent. But I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Edited March 14, 2019 by shamrock

[Initial B]

16 minutes ago, Copes said:

My only hesitation is how you filter the regional leagues with year-over-year turnover from less regional leagues. If the relegated D2 club is from Quebec, but the promoted club is from BC... I guess you just have fluctuating numbers of teams each year (or fluctuating East / West borders in D2).

I don't see any way around having to reorganize the east-west Div 2 leagues annually. My guess is that Ontario will be the splitting point (and maybe occasionally Winnipeg), with some teams in the east and some in the west.

Alternatively, they could instead have fluid east and west conferences with limited play between them, say one game against clubs in the opposing conference and the remaining games in conference (à la MLS). Playoffs would be a 2-leg match between the first and second place teams in opposing conferences with the winners getting promoted. You could have less than 16 teams in that format and they wouldn't necessarily have to be an even number either. Do you think most teams could be expected to handle 3-4 team flights a year?

But this would only work until you have a full Div 2, and then you would have to fix the number of teams per division or it becomes unfair with Div 2/3 pro-rel. I'm hoping that by the time it gets to that point, Div 1 will have developed an equilibrium of East-West teams so that the Div 2 regions would be stable. The Div 3 Leagues would be of variable size so the relegated Div 2 club could just slot into its local Div 3. The overall Div 3 East and West Champions could be decided in a Memorial Cup-style tournament.

[Initial B]

2 hours ago, shamrock said:

It's not as simple as just rebranding existing leagues. There's standards in place, clubs need budgets even as amateurs or semi-pro's. They tried it in BC, but the clubs didn't want to participate (at least, not enough). Even after 5 years (or more?) the PLSQ is still very small. Only in Ontario D3 has been a huge succes, and they have existing clubs, infrastructure, players and relatively small distances. 

Maybe population density is the key. Ontario has almost triple the population density of Quebec, but the majority of it is in either the Golden Horseshoe or Ottawa. And most of the L1O teams are in the GTA - eastern Ontario teams have struggled to be viable with even that moderate travel involved. The majority of the PLSQ teams are located around Montreal.

Maybe we can't cover the entire country and shouldn't even try. What if we concentrate Div 3 clubs into specific areas of high population density, regardless of provincial boundaries?  In my mind, that's 5 areas with close to two-thirds of the Canadian population:

• Vancouver Island-Lower Mainland
• Edmonton-Calgary Corridor
• GTA-Southwestern Ontario
• Ottawa-Quebec City Corridor
• Maritime Capitals Triangle 

Apologies to NL, MB, SK, and the rest of Canada but perhaps they don't have enough density to sustain viable D3 Leagues.  

[Senorpopps]

As mentioned previously, what's wrong with a MB/SK Div 3 league? I agree that NL would be difficult ...

[Initial B]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an MB/SK Div 3 league. But the question is: Do they have enough locations in close enough proximity that can meet L1O/PLSQ-level standards to make it viable?

[CDNFootballer]

I think a BC D3 is best built around working with the D4 USL League 2(PDL) teams, Highlanders and TSS Rovers, and using them as a core to start a new League 1 BC.

Seek out ownership for adding in teams in Kelowna, Abbotsford, Langley, West Van, and Coquitlam where there are stadiums of sufficient size to host a club.

Edited March 14, 2019 by CDNFootballer

[Initial B]

BC already has the PCSL at Div 4, don't they?

[shamrock]

3 minutes ago, Initial B said:

BC already has the PCSL at Div 4, don't they?

Yeah but that is a long way from anything resembling League1. 

[NVsoccer]

3 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

I think a BC D3 is best built around working with the D4 USL League 2(PDL) teams, Highlanders and TSS Rovers, and using them as a core to start a new League 1 BC.

Seek out ownership for adding in teams in Kelowna, Abbotsford, Langley, West Van, and Coquitlam where there are stadiums of sufficient size to host a club.

Don't think there is a stadium in West Van, also Whitecaps could put there U-23 team in this league

[Rintaran]

15 hours ago, Initial B said:

BC already has the PCSL at Div 4, don't they?

Sort of. Victoria Highlanders and TSS FC Rovers have their top-level in PDL. Highlanders have had their reserves in PCSL for a couple years, marking a clear line of progression.

15 hours ago, shamrock said:

Yeah but that is a long way from anything resembling League1. 

Agreed, it is definitely a step down from League1 (which itself is still a step-down from PDL-quality). They've (PCSL... actually, both... L1O has been closing the gap with PDL too, so, yeah.) been moving in the right direction, with stronger squads and increased stability over the past couple of seasons, but there's a lot of work to do.

If the league was turned over to a wealthy and savvy group, they could make the push to move it up, but I don't see that happening in the near future.

This year the PCSL is also restarting their Women's Division, which will host what amounts to TSS FC's reserve women's team (their top team is in WPSL). We'll have to watch, but if decent standards are in place, the potential exists for this to become the women's equivalent to the women's L1O & PLSQ.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Rintaran

[ted]

17 hours ago, shamrock said:

Yeah but that is a long way from anything resembling League1. 

If the CanPL bought the league out (like L1O) they could easily turn it into a D3 league for 2020 by bringing in the Highlanders and Rovers.

[SpursFlu]

This thread prompted me to check out the PCSL website. The league seemed to be moving in the right direction after basically turning in to a summer road trip party league for years. But..

 

Ive notived there are only 4 teams this year and 3 are from the Okanagan. Something must be going down.. Is this info correct? Someone must know something

[Rintaran]

2 minutes ago, SpursFlu said:

This thread prompted me to check out the PCSL website. The league seemed to be moving in the right direction after basically turning in to a summer road trip party league for years. But..

 

Ive notived there are only 4 teams this year and 3 are from the Okanagan. Something must be going down.. Is this info correct? Someone must know something

Ummm... Your info is not correct.

There is now a Men's and Women's Division. (* denotes new this year)

Mens:

• Penticton SC
• Kamloops TRU
• Okanagan FC *
• Victoria Highlanders FC Reserves
• Mid Isle Mariners FC
• Surrey United FC *
• Vancouver Tigers *
• Khalsa Sporting Club

Womens:

• Penticton SC *
• Kamloops TRU *
• Mid Isle FC *
• New Westminster FC *
• North Shore Girls SC *
• TSS Academy *

They had previously claimed the men's division would increase to 10 teams this year, apparently didn't happen.

[shamrock]

1 hour ago, ted said:

If the CanPL bought the league out (like L1O) they could easily turn it into a D3 league for 2020 by bringing in the Highlanders and Rovers.

I don't understand your argument. It's still up to the clubs to raise their standards and join cet D3 league. You can buy whatever you want, if the clubs don't have the ambition, money and knowhow you're not getting anywhere. 

[deschamp86]

1 hour ago, ted said:

If the CanPL bought the league out (like L1O) they could easily turn it into a D3 league for 2020 by bringing in the Highlanders and Rovers.

They would probably have to do something to convince them. I remember seeing on Twitter a while back when a BC Div 3 league was brought up, the Rovers Owner asked rhetorically who would reimburse them their fee to USL if they were expected to join the BC league

[SpursFlu]

A league is just a house.. you can easily buy the house. Renovate it, buy new furniture and presto you have a nice new house. I would like to see the CPL buy the PCSL, maybe rebrand it and bring it under its umbrella. 

 

Im glad to see it looks healthy and filled out for this summer. Drop in Caps U23, Rovers, Highlanders and you got yourself a great league. You might not want to force people but there definitely would be benefits that you would have to sell them

Edited March 15, 2019 by SpursFlu

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

On 3/14/2019 at 7:05 PM, shamrock said:

...Don't get me wrong I'm all for these regional D3 leagues spread over the country, they're needed to supply the CanPL with talent. But I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Most L1O teams are actually amateur to protect NCAA eligibilities, so it's never been fully clear to me what the huge difference from leagues like the AMSL, PCSL and VMSL is supposed to be.