The Importance of Alphonso Davies

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

11 minutes ago, Mattd97 said:

I'm just checking that were still talking about the guy with the 5th highest average fotmob score on the team, as a defender, behind kane, sane, and 0.17 behind musiala and and 0.06 behind kimmich. That's the horrible form stupid 24 year old that's tarnishing his legacy right?

If we use Fotmob to judge a player, that is not what fans see, which is what we are talking about. 

I look at very poor game in my view, Heidenheim, they (or the alogorithm) give him a 6.9, not really that bad probably because he added an assist.  But as I said in my comment before he contributed to them losing a 2 goal lead and losing the game.  Fans remember stuff like that and losing for the first time in forever at home to Dortmund. 

Fair or not.  

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

Repeat

Edited May 1 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

23 minutes ago, costarg said:

This.  Some of the comments are pretty extreme and had me scratching my head.  Comments about his defensive play vs Saka are borderline ignorant.

We know he does not suit TT's system.  TT is on his way out.  TT is the bad fit, not Davies.

Davies just looks a little bored out there, like he knows he could do so much more.  That's the worst we can pin on him.  This coming from a guy that feels he tries to do too much with CANMNT, it's the opposite at his club.  His sweet spot is somewhere in between.

In what way?  If he is a top tier defender, he probably needs to do better against even an excellent attacker.  

He let himself get sucked towards the ball on Saka's goal and Saka made him pay.  It is a basic error that Champions League defenders shouldn't make.  

If he is bored in the Champions League while defending, that is very much on him.

 

Under Tuchel, he makes a lot of easy passes which Fotmob loves; he will still win the ball most of the time when its contested, which Fotmob loves; he still dribbles past people which Fotmob loves and he will still create a chance every so often. Fotmob doesn't pick up high end defensive instincts that prevent chances against good players. 

[GasPed]

10 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

You may be right in part of this, but not on when Bayern lost the title. I posted this above, defending him. He was injured in a win vs Moenchengladbach early February, next game they lost 3-0 to Leverkusen, opening the breach. Then lost to Bochum, beat Leipzig, drew Freiburg. Dropped 8 points in a month without Davies and the league was lost by early March.

What you posted is true, but mathematically Bayern was still "sort of" in the title hunt until the two catastrophic losses to Dortmund on March 30 and Heidenheim on April 6.  (Tuchel actually publicly conceded the title after the Dortmund loss.)  The very next weekend is when they were mathematically eliminated when Leverkusen beat Werder.  

[GasPed]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

In what way?  If he is a top tier defender, he probably needs to do better against even an excellent attacker.  

He let himself get sucked towards the ball on Saka's goal and Saka made him pay.  It is a basic error that Champions League defenders shouldn't make.  

If he is bored in the Champions League while defending, that is very much on him.

 

Under Tuchel, he makes a lot of easy passes which Fotmob loves; he will still win the ball most of the time when its contested, which Fotmob loves; he still dribbles past people which Fotmob loves and he will still create a chance every so often. Fotmob doesn't pick up high end defensive instincts that prevent chances against good players. 

Completely agree.  He is and has always been an attacking player at heart - he will work to win a ball, but what really wants is to take it up the pitch - and that instinct can be fatal for a last-line defender who needs to be far more concerned about his positioning and where the attackers are or will be, rather than where the ball is and how can I win it.  The most concerning piece is that even though he's learned about the art of defending, and he's actually pretty good at some parts (e.g. 1 v 1 duels), he's never mastered the important pieces and it's still not second nature to him.  He is still extremely prone to the "winger running in behind me while I ball-watch" trick, which is probably the oldest offensive tactic in soccer.

That said, there are a lot of experienced defenders who still make those mistakes too (e.g. Kim Min Jae against Madrid yesterday).  Still, it's sad that he can't seem to get better at this part of the game.

[Obinna]

1 hour ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

If we use Fotmob to judge a player, that is not what fans see, which is what we are talking about. 

I look at very poor game in my view, Heidenheim, they (or the alogorithm) give him a 6.9, not really that bad probably because he added an assist.  But as I said in my comment before he contributed to them losing a 2 goal lead and losing the game.  Fans remember stuff like that and losing for the first time in forever at home to Dortmund. 

Fair or not.  

Yes for sure...

....but that said I suspect they will have a longer memory of Davies negative contribution, maybe even a skewed memory of his negative contribution, because he has become a public enemy of the club, thanks to the club's spat with his agent, so I don't trust what I read about Davies now if it's coming from a Bayern fan. 

And I mean, I get it on both sides, but I am pretty annoyed with the Bayern fanbase over it. Collectively they act as if he is now garbage, washed up, etc. I have seen so many of these comments on reddit and other places. And for someone without the desire (and time) that I once had to catch Bayern games, it throws mud in the water and makes it hard to determine if Davies has been subpar for Davies or if he's really tanking lately as a player. Even with Canada he hasn't been great, so when I see those comments from Bayern fans, it makes me wonder.  

I am glad you guys are weighing in on his performances with a more moderate, less emotional take on his overall play, though, which from what I can tell is below his world class standard. Is that a fair way to put it? Are there doubts about his world class status? I think not after hearing you all speak on it.

[The Beaver 2.0]

Phonsie misses Jordan! He's not been the same since their break-up.💔

[Obinna]

9 minutes ago, GasPed said:

That said, there are a lot of experienced defenders who still make those mistakes too (e.g. Kim Min Jae against Madrid yesterday).  Still, it's sad that he can't seem to get better at this part of the game.

I wouldn't necessarily say he has a low soccer IQ, but his decision making has never been a strong part of his game, as he seems to play carefree, if you know what I mean.

In the case of ball watching on the defensive end, especially those balls in behind, I can't say he hasn't faced those scenarios enough in his 5 years at Bayern, because he has. He's had countless reps with that.

It's a double-edged sword, because when he can play instinctively with freedom he's at his best, not when he is forced to be structured and dialed for 90 minutes. I think he struggles to balance THAT with being instinctive and creative going forward. Even on the offensive end, for Bayern he's turned into a "find the open man" type of player, and the demands of playing the right ball seem to have dulled his creative streak. 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 minutes ago, Obinna said:

I wouldn't necessarily say he has a low soccer IQ, but his decision making has never been a strong part of his game, as he seems to play carefree, if you know what I mean.

In the case of ball watching on the defensive end, especially those balls in behind, I can't say he hasn't faced those scenarios enough in his 5 years at Bayern, because he has. He's had countless reps with that.

It's a double-edged sword, because when he can play instinctively with freedom he's at his best, not when he is forced to be structured and dialed for 90 minutes. I think he struggles to balance THAT with being instinctive and creative going forward. Even on the offensive end, for Bayern he's turned into a "find the open man" type of player, and the demands of playing the right ball seem to have dulled his creative streak. 

This and your previous post is why I have thought for a while that wingback was his better position.

He is absolutely world-class in his recovery pace, ability to contest and win balls, then take the ball into dangerous areas.  Key elements of being a full back. And when Bayern won the triple that was what they needed and used effectively.  And why he rightly gained the reputation he did. 

Things and coaches change.  Tuchel's tactic are very much about using  positioning to create the pressing and attack opportunities that seemed more instinctual under the previous couple managers. Again not Davies biggest strength.

At this very high level, he still needs the right system. 

 

By the way, I think he has done quite well with Canada recently.  At least the last 2 games. Our problems did not come from there and he  created a whole lot of our chances.

[Unnamed Trialist]

Meanwhile the other German team is playing great tonight. I admit I probably haven't watched them much this year, but Sancho, that Norwegian Ryerson, Brandt, great team, well coached. And imo probably the best atmosphere in any stadium in Europe. I know deep down that PSG would have a better chance taking out Real Madrid given the case, but it is hard not to want Borussia Dortmund to find success as an underdog in this years Champions.

I had never even heard of Ryerson before, really strong player.

Edited May 1 by Unnamed Trialist

[Unnamed Trialist]

Back to Davies. We play him as right wing inverted in the friendlies and vs. Messi et al, and teach any future club where he could and should be playing. 

Bayern bought him based on mostly attacking positions from Whitecaps, then Robinson played him as an outside back which sort of set a precedent for Bayern moving him there. Nothing is fixed. He's valuable freed up from defending along the back line, and we use him for other things. And if it works, his clubs may follow suit.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

5 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Meanwhile the other German team is playing great tonight. I admit I probably haven't watched them much this year, but Sancho, that Norwegian Ryerson, Brandt, great team, well coached. And imo probably the best atmosphere in any stadium in Europe. I know deep down that PSG would have a better chance taking out Real Madrid given the case, but it is hard not to want Borussia Dortmund to find success as an underdog in this years Champions.

The coach is Terzic, who was a man-manager under Bilic at West Ham.  Has been under pressure because of his struggles in the league (might just grab the probable extra Champions League spot in 5th).

Also mixed feelings.  England still has a remote chance to catch Germany for the second extra Champions League spot mentioned above.  But I always like to see PSG do poorly.

[TGAA_Star]

14 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Back to Davies. We play him as right wing inverted in the friendlies and vs. Messi et al, and teach any future club where he could and should be playing. 

Bayern bought him based on mostly attacking positions from Whitecaps, then Robinson played him as an outside back which sort of set a precedent for Bayern moving him there. Nothing is fixed. He's valuable freed up from defending along the back line, and we use him for other things. And if it works, his clubs may follow suit.

I just love that Alphonso is still in contention to win another Champions League trophy with Bayern and think about it...if Bayern wins yet another Champions League trophy, if you're Davies, do you leave Bayern still? Or do you stay at the club long term?

[Unnamed Trialist]

16 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

The coach is Terzic, who was a man-manager under Bilic at West Ham.  Has been under pressure because of his struggles in the league (might just grab the probable extra Champions League spot in 5th).

Also mixed feelings.  England still has a remote chance to catch Germany for the second extra Champions League spot mentioned above.  But I always like to see PSG do poorly.

I think, related, that Germany and Italy get the extra Champions spots (after sitting here arguing with you and others EPL vs. La Liga, proving the top four rotate constantly as to who's better). But to the point, that puts Dortmund into the fifth spot, since they can't lose their 5th place league position, regardless of what they do in this CL.

Technically now, starting next year, a league could have 7 teams in Champions. 4 from the allotment to the league, a fifth based on teams' performance in European competitions as seen here, a CL winner who is not one of the top four teams (say Napoli win the Champions but remain 9th in Serie A), and the winner of Europa League (say Atalanta win Europa League).

So for example, as the table stands in Italy, they could have had Inter, AC Milan, Juventus, Bologna; the fifth team Roma; and Napoli (if they hadn't been eliminated) and Atalanta as hypothetical trophy winners in Europe.

[costarg]

19 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

In what way?  If he is a top tier defender, he probably needs to do better against even an excellent attacker.  

He let himself get sucked towards the ball on Saka's goal and Saka made him pay.  It is a basic error that Champions League defenders shouldn't make.  

We're talking about Bukayo Saka here.  5th most valuable player in the world and one of the trickiest players in the world.  He was Arsenal's Player of the year at 19 & 20.  He makes all defenses look bad.  He's not only cracked the lineup for one of the best national teams, but has 11 goals and 7 assists as a 22 yr old winger for them.  That works out to a goal contribution every 116' minutes as a winger.  Even the best defenders have bad games.

[Obinna]

6 hours ago, TGAA_Star said:

I just love that Alphonso is still in contention to win another Champions League trophy with Bayern and think about it...if Bayern wins yet another Champions League trophy, if you're Davies, do you leave Bayern still? Or do you stay at the club long term?

This has crossed my mind more than once and under normal circumstances I think it would really make him think twice about leaving, but with how the club and the fans have seemed to turn on him, he's probably gone no matter what. If not Real Madrid than perhaps Chelsea (his dad's club) or Manchester City (who've expressed interest in the past). United were also linked with him (and David) recently, although it would be very big step down.

I wouldn't mind seeing Barcelona going for him if the Real Madrid transfer doesn't work out, even though I am sure Madrid would be happy to sign him on a free in 12 months.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

6 hours ago, costarg said:

We're talking about Bukayo Saka here.  5th most valuable player in the world and one of the trickiest players in the world.  He was Arsenal's Player of the year at 19 & 20.  He makes all defenses look bad.  He's not only cracked the lineup for one of the best national teams, but has 11 goals and 7 assists as a 22 yr old winger for them.  That works out to a goal contribution every 116' minutes as a winger.  Even the best defenders have bad games.

Ha. Sorry mate, you can quote me all the stats and facts from Google you want.  I love that you go first to Transfermarket value to determine a player's quality.  

Watch football.  Specifically that game and that play.  And Davies play generally. 

 

Saka's finish on that play was very good, but there is nothing overly tricky about making a cutting run inside while your defender ball-watches (letting you go across his eyeline) and then recieving a ball.  Watch Davies hop in frustration with himself after. 

Remember I watch Saka a lot, he has great delivery and excellent ability to free himself up with pace and trickery, as you say.  But didn't win on that play with pace, Davies is world class at that (and caught him a second before).  He didn't beat him with ball trickery, Davies again is excellent at dealing with that.  It was a basic defensive error which I have seen many overall poorer defenders not make against Saka.  No stat is going tell you that.  

 

Davies did the exact same thing a number of times this season.  Two games before against Dortmund is the one that jumps to mind because of that loss at home and pretty much killing their title challenge.  He is not the best, nor even a world-class defender in those situations, because he does that too often.  When Bayern are playing really how they can/ used to, he doesn't find himself in those siutations often.  But they occur more with how Tuchel sets up.  It is probably why Davies has not played as much.   We can pretend we know lots about football but fair to say Tuchel knows a little as well, as much as we whine about him. 

If there is an ignorant thought out there, though, it is that Davies is the leftback that is automatically going to save use from  the smart possession-based attacks that is coming in the next few months.   If you actually watch, it has never been his strength and its not why he gained the - deserved - reputation he did. It was for a different kind of defending. Things are not as simple as googling "best left-backs."  

 

Edited May 2 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[TGAA_Star]

1 hour ago, Obinna said:

This has crossed my mind more than once and under normal circumstances I think it would really make him think twice about leaving, but with how the club and the fans have seemed to turn on him, he's probably gone no matter what. If not Real Madrid than perhaps Chelsea (his dad's club) or Manchester City (who've expressed interest in the past). United were also linked with him (and David) recently, although it would be very big step down.

I wouldn't mind seeing Barcelona going for him if the Real Madrid transfer doesn't work out, even though I am sure Madrid would be happy to sign him on a free in 12 months.

I would definitely want Phonzie to go to Manchester City or Barcelona 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

7 hours ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

(After sitting here arguing with you and others EPL vs. La Liga, proving the top four rotate constantly as to who's better)

Maybe I am just in a combative mood but this is wrong, of course. 

The reason England are well out in front in the 5 year co-efficient that is used (and will still be even after a poor year this year)  is that they have been top 4 of the last 5 years.  Not a lot of rotation there.  

Spain has bobbed a bit, it's true.  2nd, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and currently sitting 5th this year but a Champions League win can change a lot.  Not sure if Madrid losing next game and Brugge winning the rest  of the Conference League would be enough to push Spain as low as 6th or not.

 

I will add it is great to see Italy coming back top and being near the top last year.   

Edited May 2 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[Unnamed Trialist]

2 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Maybe I am just in a combative mood but this is wrong, of course. 

The reason England are well out in front in 5 year co-efficient that is used (and will still be even after a poor year this year)  is that they have been top 4 of the last 5 years.  Not a lot of rotation there.  

Spain has bobbed a bit, it's true.  2nd, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and currently sitting 5th this year but a Champions League win can change a lot.  Not sure if Madrid losing next game and Brugge winning the rest  of the Conference League would be enough to push Spain as low as 6th or not.

Have I really been watching football longer than you? Your idea of a cycle is a season or two?

Anyways, since EPL is the one league stalling on financial fair play and letting teams fudge on the numbers (maybe until now), that will eventually show. Or maybe it is already showing. 

Was thinking about that Olympiacos win tonight-- their u19s won Youth League, and dominating entirely. All Greek players too, while most of the bigger clubs have plenty of imports at u19. 

[frmr]

 

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Have I really been watching football longer than you? Your idea of a cycle is a season or two?

?

If you are taking the last year or two Italy has done well, if you are going by the last 5  - as UEFA does -  the coefficient clearly shows England as a  whole being the most successful association in Europe.

Your statement "the top four rotate constantly as to who's better" can only be true if you are looking in the last year and is certainly not true beyond the standard 5 years either.  The last time a team other than England or Spain was top - for 1 year, not the 5 year cycle - was Germany in 2012/13.  Using the  5 year rolling cycle, the top association has never not been one of those 2. 

1 hour ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

Anyways, since EPL is the one league stalling on financial fair play and letting teams fudge on the numbers (maybe until now), that will eventually show. Or maybe it is already showing. 

Also factually incorrect.

FFP has been thing for a number of years and teams have been docked points because of it. 

We haven't been able to sign people because of it.

The debts Barcelona are carrying would be looked at very closely for instance, if they were in England.

Edit: Reading a little, the Spanish authorities changed the domestic rules this year to make it easier on Barcelona, I see.

And both they and Man City were fined by UEFA.

Edited May 3 by WestHamCanadianinOxford

[InglewoodJack]

Tuchel says he’ll probably rest Mazraoui this weekend so he’s fully fit for the leg in Madrid, so I guess no Davies there either.

I must say, all of this Bayern talk about their new coach really puts everything into perspective with how we’re conducting our hiring process- it’s so bleak. They’ve been rejected by Xabi, Ragnick, I believe Nagelsmann rejected a reunion- I mean one of the biggest clubs on earth can’t seem to get a manager on their tier to come to them. I think even Tuchel said that since they’ve already agreed to part ways, it’s final, he doesn’t want to come back even if they changed their mind.

[WestHamCanadianinOxford]

10 minutes ago, InglewoodJack said:

Tuchel says he’ll probably rest Mazraoui this weekend so he’s fully fit for the leg in Madrid, so I guess no Davies there either.

I must say, all of this Bayern talk about their new coach really puts everything into perspective with how we’re conducting our hiring process- it’s so bleak. They’ve been rejected by Xabi, Ragnick, I believe Nagelsmann rejected a reunion- I mean one of the biggest clubs on earth can’t seem to get a manager on their tier to come to them. I think even Tuchel said that since they’ve already agreed to part ways, it’s final, he doesn’t want to come back even if they changed their mind.

De Zerbi (Brighton) and Schmidt (Benifica - could Conceicao be tempted to move down the coast?) are who the papers think are most likely. 

Schmidt is not up and coming but he has coached at as high a level as Nagelsmann did when he came to them.

De Zerbi came to Brighton at the wrong time: being a smaller club and selling your best players, no matter how good your development is, is going to catch up to you at some point.  Tries to play nice football, I will give him that.  But seemed pretty toothless in the end when we faced them. 

[Mattd97]

20 hours ago, WestHamCanadianinOxford said:

Ha. Sorry mate, you can quote me all the stats and facts from Google you want.  I love that you go first to Transfermarket value to determine a player's quality.  

Watch football.  Specifically that game and that play.  And Davies play generally. 

 

Saka's finish on that play was very good, but there is nothing overly tricky about making a cutting run inside while your defender ball-watches (letting you go across his eyeline) and then recieving a ball.  Watch Davies hop in frustration with himself after. 

Remember I watch Saka a lot, he has great delivery and excellent ability to free himself up with pace and trickery, as you say.  But didn't win on that play with pace, Davies is world class at that (and caught him a second before).  He didn't beat him with ball trickery, Davies again is excellent at dealing with that.  It was a basic defensive error which I have seen many overall poorer defenders not make against Saka.  No stat is going tell you that.  

 

Davies did the exact same thing a number of times this season.  Two games before against Dortmund is the one that jumps to mind because of that loss at home and pretty much killing their title challenge.  He is not the best, nor even a world-class defender in those situations, because he does that too often.  When Bayern are playing really how they can/ used to, he doesn't find himself in those siutations often.  But they occur more with how Tuchel sets up.  It is probably why Davies has not played as much.   We can pretend we know lots about football but fair to say Tuchel knows a little as well, as much as we whine about him. 

If there is an ignorant thought out there, though, it is that Davies is the leftback that is automatically going to save use from  the smart possession-based attacks that is coming in the next few months.   If you actually watch, it has never been his strength and its not why he gained the - deserved - reputation he did. It was for a different kind of defending. Things are not as simple as googling "best left-backs."  

 

You'd think if you watched so much football you'd see that goals sometimes happen against even good defenders, who sometimes dont play a perfect game and their mistakes are sometimes punished. But now time is a circle.