CPL General

[HfxCeltic]

2 hours ago, mpg_29 said:

The Halifax NBL team currently avg's 1400 a game. Care to reason why another non-hockey pro sport in Halifax will get 4X that in avg attendance ?

All of my reasoning is completely anecdotal. 1. There is a complete lack of competition for a bulk of the proposed season (NBL competes with the Q for their entire season). 2. The time of year is conducive to people getting out of their house and attending games (NBL operates the majority of their season in the winter). 3. The stadium location is probably the most important factor - it's located within a 5 min walk from the busiest shopping street in Atlantic Canada and a downtown filled with places to eat, drink, make an event out of the game. 4. Organized soccer participation among 18-30 year olds has appeared to have grown tremendously in Halifax in the last 10 years. Considering all of this and the fact that ticket prices are projected to be affordable, I don't see any reason not to be optimistic about attendance figures. I'd rather be in mine (and the majority of the boards) position of optimisim and excitement rather than one of pessimism and doubt. The league has been sanctioned; there are 2 teams announced with many more appearing on the way; they've announced a start date; hired a commissioner. Get excited man; you're going to be able to attend professional soccer matches in a number of cities across Canada where you couldn't before.   

Edited January 17, 2018 by HfxCeltic

[mpg_29]

2 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

I can't speak to Halifax as a market, but Canadian viewership surveys tend to demonstrate that soccer has a wide lead on basketball especially in the demographics that tend to go out to games. Obviously youth participation numbers are on soccer's side, and even soft metrics like the number of twitter followers the leagues have gotten shows a disparity in interest...CPL has gotten 5000+ followers in 8 months while CBL barely cracked 1000 in 4 years. Throw in the fact that soccer won't have to compete with hockey season for entertainment dollars (though there's the looming spectre of CFL), I don't think 3x the attendance is delusional.

We obviously have to be careful with equating interest in soccer with interest in CPL, but in smaller markets a thousand kilometers from the nearest live pro game, I don't think they will have too much difficulty converting that interest into ticket holders. Besides, CBL obviously has the same issue with the NBA so it doesn't necessarily have a bearing on this discussion

Also interesting that interest in soccer also hit rock bottom among boomers, which likely plays into the dynamics of the discussions on this board

Lets at least argue about the right league. CBL is some crappy thing started by Butch Carter with like 4 teams. NBL Canada has 10 teams. 10K followers on Twitter. https://twitter.com/NBLCanada

You right that NBL Canada has the problem with NBA in Toronto saturating a lot of the pro sport market. But CPL is only going to have that problem 3 fold with 3 MLS teams in Canada.

[Complete Homer]

17 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

Lets at least argue about the right league. CBL is some crappy thing started by Butch Carter with like 4 teams. NBL Canada has 10 teams. 10K followers on Twitter. https://twitter.com/NBLCanada

You right that NBL Canada has the problem with NBA in Toronto saturating a lot of the pro sport market. But CPL is only going to have that problem 3 fold with 3 MLS teams in Canada.

You're right, misinterpreted which league was which. Besides, that only touches on the one "soft metric" I pointed to.

But I wouldn't say it really follows that the 3 MLS teams makes the problem 3 times worse. For a Halifax team, how do you think it changes when the closest team is still 1000+ km away and the only opportunity to go to a live game will be to go to a CPL game? If anything, the presence of the MLS teams have served as a great advertisement for the sport and would encourage Haligonians to check out a game.

If you're saying it makes it harder for Surrey, Hamilton, etc, sure it definitely will changes the kind of market share they can hope for.

Unlike the NBA, MLS isn't anywhere near the top level of the sport, so it's not as if MLS or CPL are in competition for the market that only wants to see the best of the best.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Complete Homer

[mpg_29]

12 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

You're right, misinterpreted which league was which. Besides, that only touches on the one "soft metric" I pointed to.

But I wouldn't say it really follows that the 3 MLS teams makes the problem 3 times worse. For a Halifax team, how do you think it changes when the closest team is still 1000+ km away and the only opportunity to go to a live game will be to go to a CPL game? If anything, the presence of the MLS teams have served as a great advertisement for the sport and would encourage Haligonians to check out a game.

If you're saying it makes it harder for Surrey, Hamilton, etc, sure it definitely will changes the kind of market share they can hope for.

Unlike the NBA, MLS isn't anywhere near the top level of the sport, so it's not as if MLS or CPL are in competition for the market that only wants to see the best of the best.

My biggest worry for CPL is in "blue collar markets". Pro soccer in Canada (and U.S.) seems to appeal to a white collar/urban demo which is sort of the reverse of Europe. Look at MLS vs CFL attendance in those 3 cities. Look at Ottawa Fury compared FC Edmonton. Roughly same population but Ottawa had significantly better attendance.  I'm curious how it will do in a city like Hamilton.

[MtlMario]

6 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Do I really need to walk people through this again? No of course not, but you don't need 8 Canadian teams for a stable league to emerge in that scenario because there are 30 American teams in place to provide stability. If it can only work in 4 or 5 Canadian markets you get it going in those markets and many more young Canadian players get their shot at breaking into the big time Jason Devos style. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.

 

Interesting choice of song......".You can't always get what you want, but if you TRY sometime, you might find, you get what you NEED".......

[Complete Homer]

2 minutes ago, mpg_29 said:

My biggest worry for CPL is in "blue collar markets". Pro soccer in Canada (and U.S.) seems to appeal to a white collar/urban demo which is sort of the reverse of Europe. Look at MLS vs CFL attendance in those 3 cities. Look at Ottawa Fury compared FC Edmonton. Roughly same population but Ottawa had significantly better attendance.  I'm curious how it will do in a city like Hamilton.

True. There definitely seems to be a young urban professional skew to soccer crowds just from the eyeball test, though I don't have any real data to back that up. 

Specifically for Hamilton I would say the city is moving towards being much more white collar. Between becoming a commuter city for millennials escaping high rent in Toronto and Health Sciences taking over as the city's largest industry, the city is gentrifying at a pace that it is becoming a problem for the more stereotypical Hamiltonian population. Good for the CPL club, mixed results for the city itself.

[BuzzAndSting]

6 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

True. There definitely seems to be a young urban professional skew to soccer crowds just from the eyeball test, though I don't have any real data to back that up. 

Specifically for Hamilton I would say the city is moving towards being much more white collar. Between becoming a commuter city for millennials escaping high rent in Toronto and Health Sciences taking over as the city's largest industry, the city is gentrifying at a pace that it is becoming a problem for the more stereotypical Hamiltonian population. Good for the CPL club, mixed results for the city itself.

Ottawa's fan base is largely families.

[Complete Homer]

2 minutes ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Ottawa's fan base is largely families.

Fair, I haven't managed to get to an Ottawa game yet. Primarily basing on TFC and VWC games

[Gopherbashi]

17 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

What does the mythical "C-SUM" that Duane Rollins peddles from time to time have to sell that would attract significant rights fees when the most recent CMNT game was only available by webstream? The real SUM, which opened an office in Toronto recently and provides another explanation for Victor Montagliani's mention of a Canadian SUM, is driven to a large extent by Mexican teams playing games that have to be sanctioned by the USSF in the United States and is fueled by the spending power of 35 million Mexican-Americans that want to watch their national team, Chivas, America etc either live in the stadium or on channels like Univision. There is nothing equivalent to that in Canada and a startup soccer league beneath MLS, which is how it will be viewed by the mainstream viewer regardless of what sanctionings say, is more likely to have to pay for access than to receive a fee.

Are you aware that the city council in Halifax retained the rights to any naming fees where the pop-up was concerned in the proposal that was amended and then approved last summer? If you use somebody else's land as appears to be the plan in Surrey, Saskatoon, K/W and Halifax, the owner is likely to want a very large slice of the action on things like naming rights, concessions and any on-site parking revenues. Even in Hamilton, the terms of the stadium lease for soccer are currently in dispute with the city council with one side claiming a favourable deal tied into the legacy of the PanAm games is still in place, while the other claims it has expired.

Are you aware that OFFC offer massively discounted tickets through youth clubs that help to boost their attendance numbers but significantly deflate their average ticket receipts per spectator? The numbers that you see for leagues like the USL and the NASL (and in years past MLS) tend to be routinely inflated tickets distributed counts rather than actual paid tickets for spectators in the stadium. That means that they often include sizable numbers of freebies and no shows. Check out what happened to announced numbers for the NASL in Oklahoma City where the local school board that owned the stadium got the real ticket count. It was something like 1500 paid instead of 4500 announced and that's nothing hugely out of the ordinary for startup franchises in North American pro soccer.

The idea that ticket revenues only have to form a small part of the revenues for CanPL and that 5000 paying significantly more than a movie ticket price on average can reasonably be expected to show up straight away in relatively small markets is wishful thinking.

You have as much insight into this as I do, which is why I assigned it a value of zero until there's something of worth there.

Thank you for providing the information I asked for; which I also did not include in the total pending this information.  Fortunately for the CPL teams, it is likely to be a quite small proportion of their revenue.

Yes, and it was balanced with lowering OFFC's attendance by a third and not including tickets priced over the $20 mark.  You are free to adjust the numbers as necessary until you find something you feel is more representative.

I look forward to seeing your analysis of what potential revenues you believe CPL ownership groups believe they have, since they evidently believe they have some and they are privy to more of this information than either of us.

I'm sure we could all do without the needlessly condensing tone.  Thanks.

[lazlo_80]

Some murmurs the Ledgerwood to Calgary Foothills move could have a CPL angle based on some things he said.

Not real news or anything, but interesting none the less.

 

https://the11.ca/ledgerwood-makes-the-move-south-to-calgary-foothills/

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

8 hours ago, Gopherbashi said:

...I'm sure we could all do without the needlessly condensing tone.  Thanks.

You are one of the last people that should be making comments about somebody's tone on here.

7 hours ago, lazlo_80 said:

Some murmurs the Ledgerwood to Calgary Foothills move could have a CPL angle based on some things he said.

I used to get ridiculed on here for suggesting it would be the Foothills rather than the Stampeders that would be the interested party in Calgary and now possible Foothills involvement is being talked up excitedly. Slowly the sky high fantasy scenarios of a couple of years ago are evolving into something that might actually happen if they could put the numbers together (Ledgerwood talking about helping FCE in the upcoming post-World Cup six team soft launch is what might have been, if things were going according to plan with Tom Fath on board). The problem with pinning too much hope on the Foothills is that as recently as last summer they were saying it won't be them but they would be ready to help an investor if one emerged, so the big question is if they now actually do have someone to bankroll a much higher budget and help sort out a viable stadium solution for 2019, or whether it's still just at the aspirational stage of talking up the vision from time to time in the hope that investment can be attracted.

Edited January 18, 2018 by BringBackTheBlizzard

[ChrisinOrleans]

16 hours ago, BuzzAndSting said:

Ottawa's fan base is largely families.

Agreed. 

It's a pretty white collar audience as well. 

[Rheo]

Roy's in Quebec

[Ansem]

YES!!!!!

[carolynduthie]

20 minutes ago, Ansem said:

YES!!!!!

this picture at least is in Montreal, fwiw 

[DigzTFC]

I google street mapped it.  Mount Royal, Montreal, Quebec.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

So Complexe Sportif Claude Robillard comes into play as a possibility to get up and running quickly?

[Macksam]

"I used to get ridiculed on here for suggesting it would be the Foothills rather than the Stampeders that would be the interested party in Calgary and now possible Foothills involvement is being talked up excitedly. Slowly the sky high fantasy scenarios of a couple of years ago are evolving into something that might actually happen if they could put the numbers together"

[Alex D]

35 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So Complexe Sportif Claude Robillard comes into play as a possibility to get up and running quickly?

I don't see why not. It looks like it could use a little love but it worked to launch the Impact. 

I would rather see something in west Montreal or Laval to differentiate a CPL club but beggars can't be choosers. 

[Ansem]

41 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

So Complexe Sportif Claude Robillard comes into play as a possibility to get up and running quickly?

I seriously doubt CPL puts a club on Montreal Island. That would be the equivalent of putting a club in North York or West Vancouver in year 1. I doubt you'd be this calm knowing you

Most likely he took that pic on his way to Quebec City

Edited January 18, 2018 by Ansem

[BuzzAndSting]

Just now, Ansem said:

I seriously doubt CPL puts a club on Montreal Island. Most likely he took that pic on his way to Quebec City

Or a CPL investor lives in Montreal who may be interested in bringing a team to some other market.

[Ansem]

Just now, BuzzAndSting said:

Or a CPL investor lives in Montreal who may be interested in bringing a team to some other market.

Yep, that makes actually way more sense!

[MtlMario]

Only with right owners ( Molson) I think a team on the island of Montreal would work. I like Robillard, been a s/t holder there for many years in the past. And right off a Metropolitain exit. Even though I live 5  minutes away, probably Laval would be a better choice.

Edited January 18, 2018 by MtlMario

[Rheo]

Did we know that Roy's position with the league is Marketing Director?  Just checked his Linkedin and it had it listed.  His travels may not be franchise related exclusively (if at all).

Also got a new name from Roy's page, Dave Keeley director of Corporate Sponsorships, somehow missed his name on the official site lol.

[Ansem]

18 minutes ago, MtlMario said:

Only with right owners ( Molson) I think a team on the island of Montreal would work. I like Robillard, been a s/t holder there for many years in the past. And right off a Metropolitain exit. Even though I live 5  minutes away, probably Laval would be a better choice.

That'd be awesome if the Molsons got involved. With the Habs marketing machine, they would hurt Montreal Impact pretty bad, especially hyping the 20/40 derby with Quebec City. One can dream... I think they could start at Université de Montreal Stadium and build a stadium downtown as the end game (bassin Peel or near Griffintown). Montreal Impact aren't downtown nor close to it.

I'd see Laval starting as a CPL II expansion. The Laval Rocket in the AHL has been successful so far proving that Laval is willing to support a 2nd tier team next to the mighty Habs.

AHL Laval Rocket, Place Bell, Laval

Attendance averaged 6,481 through Laval's first six home games, although after a sellout for the inaugural game on Oct. 6 it looks to be settling at just under 6,000, which is above average for the AHL. The team averaged 4,103 last season in St. John's.

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by Ansem