Voyageurs' Cup 2017

[rightback]

3 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

When I re-watched the game in full yesterday I counted one turnover by Osorio in the first half and 7 by Delgado in the 2nd, so I'm not really seeing the basis of this claim. Osorio kept his team in possession better and had Beitashour made better use of the three times Osorio set him up perfectly with acres of space to deliver a cross into the box, Osorio might have been credited with a couple of assists.

 

Uh, oh. Sounds like I may have developed a bias against him and started to only notice his mistakes. I do remember one pass straight to an Impact player with no TFC player in the vicinity and him slapping his hands together at the mistake. I'll take your word that he was better than it seemed to me at the time. 

[Macksam]

23 minutes ago, Unnamed Trialist said:

It would help if certain Spanish politicians would not use purity of nationhood and forced unity as hammers to beat away at their political rivals. (BTW, I've been in Catalonia for three decades, married to a Catalan mountain girl, and neither of us are in favour of the independence "project")

I've heard of Catalan independence being a thing but I never did any further research into it. Could you give me the cliff's note version of why some of your people (including the late Cruijff if I recall correctly) want to separate and what are the positives and negatives of doing so and not doing so.

12 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

None of these signs in question I think have anything to do with the Red Patch Boys (or U-sector for that matter) - judging by the photo, this is another Inebbriati supporters group sign.

Incidentally I think those signs are getting noticed more now than they were at the stadium at the time.

Yeah, I remember it was from the Inebbriati last year. However, unlike a lot who were offended by that drawing, I thought it was golden. As a true Libertarian, I think anybody should say what they want, when they want, no matter how vulgar or obscene it is just as long as you're not threatening anybody or spreading lies that can cause somebody else financial hardship (slander/libel). With that in mind, you should also utilize a given platform and say something of merit, whether provocative or not. Making a huge banner that says "QUEBEXIT" at most is clever on a very small level considering this isn't really a current issue, it's something that most recently came up in the mid 1990s. It's like Impact fans putting up a banner that says "RUSSELL HILL SUBWAY ACCIDENT....WE HOPE IT HAPPENS AGAIN!". It's just disappointing is all.

[harrycoyster]

1 minute ago, Gian-Luca said:

When I re-watched the game in full yesterday I counted one turnover by Osorio in the first half and 7 by Delgado in the 2nd, so I'm not really seeing the basis of this claim. Osorio kept his team in possession better and had Beitashour made better use of the three times Osorio set him up perfectly with acres of space to deliver a cross into the box, Osorio might have been credited with a couple of assists.

That's not to say that putting Delgado on was a mistake (they won the game after all) - it was more of a risk/reward situation as he played a great ball to Bradley that ultimately led to the first goal, but he also gave the ball away about 7 times as often as Osorio did in their respective 45 minute stretches. He's also arguably a better fit to play alongside Vazquez & Bradley because he will cover the ground that Vazquez won't (or won't as quickly - look at the Montreal goal for an example, Delgado probably would have been all over that defensively while Vazquez, as much as I love what he brings to the team, was a passenger defensively on that play (although to be fair to him, I have no idea where Bradley was running to when Tabla got the ball)). Osorio isn't up to Vazquez levels of distribution, so he's not going to start in that role ahead of Vazquez. Vanney mentioned this yesterday in a media scrum where he was generally praising Osorio's value to the team.

I thought Osorio was having a really poor game. So many times he would receive the ball in a decent position, attempt to beat a defender and just end up passing the ball back to Bradley. His only notable forward passes were to the wingbacks, which while not necessarily a bad thing isn't what you want out of Osorio. If you are going to defend as poorly as Osorio does, you need to be able to make cutting passes and beat players off the dribble.  Osorio was basically a body. Sure he held the ball for a couple seconds before passing in backwards and had two decent chances for an MLS assist, but he isn't doing anything Vazquez doesn't do better, and having both of them on the field feels redundant at times. 

Delgado is just the better 8 at this point, and he certainly fits better on the field with Bradley and Vazquez. He provides great defensive cover and is a better passer of the ball. His interception and ball to Bradley on the first Giovinco goal were exceptional. I didn't count 7 giveaways from Delgado, but whatever TFC lost through turnovers they more than gained in Delgado's defensive cover, distribution, and ability to turn defense into offense. 

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, jonovision said:

That's not my interpretation of his remarks at all, it was a response to the question he was asked. And his main point, which was that refs like Gantar and Fischer are not at the level at all and as a result are having an inappropriate influence on matches, was entirely correct. Obviously he'd highlight where calls went against his own team but I don't think anyone can fault him for that.

 

The clips that I've seen (on the TSN website) don't have the questions included but first instance of blaming the refs occurs after he talks about how well he though his team played and don't seem to have been instigated by being asked about the officiating. He claims the team played well, created a bunch of chances and then said that the game was "decided" by the Ref. The follow up questions do appear to be specifically about the officiating but once he claims the game was "decided" by the officials, it falls into "blaming everything on the Ref" category for me and you can see why the media would pursue that line of inquiry with the follow up questions which then occur.

 

[Califax]

1 hour ago, Macksam said:

. Making a huge banner that says "QUEBEXIT" at most is clever on a very small level considering this isn't really a current issue, it's something that most recently came up in the mid 1990s. It's like Impact fans putting up a banner that says "RUSSELL HILL SUBWAY ACCIDENT....WE HOPE IT HAPPENS AGAIN!". It's just disappointing is all.

Not an apt comparison. 

One involves death, the involves something Quebecers themselves have repeatedly requested. Also Marois was elected and then defeated talking about separating as recently as 2014 so let's not pretend it hasnt been in the public consciousness.

 

[Gian-Luca]

27 minutes ago, harrycoyster said:

I thought Osorio was having a really poor game. So many times he would receive the ball in a decent position, attempt to beat a defender and just end up passing the ball back to Bradley. His only notable forward passes were to the wingbacks, which while not necessarily a bad thing isn't what you want out of Osorio. If you are going to defend as poorly as Osorio does, you need to be able to make cutting passes and beat players off the dribble.  Osorio was basically a body. Sure he held the ball for a couple seconds before passing in backwards and had two decent chances for an MLS assist, but he isn't doing anything Vazquez doesn't do better, and having both of them on the field feels redundant at times. 

Delgado is just the better 8 at this point, and he certainly fits better on the field with Bradley and Vazquez. He provides great defensive cover and is a better passer of the ball. His interception and ball to Bradley on the first Giovinco goal were exceptional. I didn't count 7 giveaways from Delgado, but whatever TFC lost through turnovers they more than gained in Delgado's defensive cover, distribution, and ability to turn defense into offense. 

Well, basically I don't agree with this, other than the bit about Delgado being a better fit with Bradley and Vazquez which I mentioned earlier. But I don't think another player in the squad being a better fit to play alongside two DP's (Vazquez is a de facto DP  since he is above the salary cap level) necessarily means that the player in question is playing poorly in a particular game, it just means that the respective skill sets compliment the other players (esp. Vazquez) better than others do. Even if you want to argue that Osorio played a largely conservative game keeping his team in possession, given that for the vast majority of the first half TFC had the lead I still wouldn't count that as him as playing "poorly" - especially when he did set up Beitashour three times for what could/should have been killer crosses but which were all squandered so it was not as though he didn't have a had in creating some chances while his team was ahead.

[harrycoyster]

3 minutes ago, Gian-Luca said:

Well, basically I don't agree with this, other than the bit about Delgado being a better fit with Bradley and Vazquez which I mentioned earlier. But I don't think another player in the squad being a better fit to play alongside two DP's (Vazquez is a de facto DP  since he is above the salary cap level) necessarily means that the player in question is playing poorly in a particular game, it just means that the respective skill sets compliment the other players (esp. Vazquez) better than others do. Even if you want to argue that Osorio played a largely conservative game keeping his team in possession, given that for the vast majority of the first half TFC had the lead I still wouldn't count that as him as playing "poorly" - especially when he did set up Beitashour three times for what could/should have been killer crosses but which were all squandered so it was not as though he didn't have a had in creating some chances while his team was ahead.

I think, regardless of who the other midfielders are, Delgado is clearly the better two-way midfielder. That's not to say that he's all that great, but he is certainly a more well-rounded player. Osorio's role should be as Vazquez back-up, which will still net him a decent amount of minutes. You can even argue that Delgado is a better #10 than Osorio, as he is averaging .7 key passes per 90 minutes to Osorio's .2.

Fact is that Osorio flat out doesn't have the skill set to be an everyday starter in MLS, and definitely not on this TFC team. If it weren't for the Canadian quota, he doesn't start last night. He's stuck in the weird North American soccer hole of too good for USL/NASL and not good enough for MLS that I hope the CPL fills.

 

[fmfranck]

EDIT:

 

Sorry dude, there are other places for this kind of stuff. 

[Admin]

That has zero soccer content and zero chance of going anywhere good.

How about you just delete it.

 

[Rheo]

So what do we see the format is for next year?  Top two get a bye. Play in for the two semi pro teams.  Then that winner plays MLS 3 and Ottawa/Edmonton?

*Sneakily trying to change the subject*

[Califax]

2 minutes ago, Rheo said:

So what do we see the format is for next year?  Top two get a bye. Play in for the two semi pro teams.  Then that winner plays MLS 3 and Ottawa/Edmonton?

*Sneakily trying to change the subject*

Id love to see it get to a top 8. First round be cpl / league 1 / quebec. 

Get three winners out of that to meet mls 3 plus edmonton and ottawa.

[Club Linesman]

2 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

When I re-watched the game in full yesterday I counted one turnover by Osorio in the first half and 7 by Delgado in the 2nd, so I'm not really seeing the basis of this claim. Osorio kept his team in possession better and had Beitashour made better use of the three times Osorio set him up perfectly with acres of space to deliver a cross into the box, Osorio might have been credited with a couple of assists.

I am glad someone else noticed this and supports Osorio.  Being at the game I was pissed when he came off because he played well and Delgado was shite when he came on.  I am really looking forward to the Gold Cup and hoping tht Oso will begin playing with the confidence he had at the end of last year. 

[Rheo]

I can't see CPL being in next year.  If (and it's still if) they launch in 2018 it's not until late summer and would be too hard to pull off.  

[dyslexic nam]

3 minutes ago, Califax said:

Id love to see it get to a top 8. First round be cpl / league 1 / quebec. 

Get three winners out of that to meet mls 3 plus edmonton and ottawa.

I get the idea behind this, but seeding CPL teams not only below the MLS teams but also below the USL/NASL teams to me is a hard "no" from me.  I would rather err on the side of bumping up CPL clubs and seeding them on equal footing with MLS to increase their profile.  Even if they get beaten across the board by the MLS teams in the early years, it would still be better than our national association signalling that they are on par with the amateur champs of ON and QC. 

Ultimately I would like to see a more expansive competition where all teams are given equal shots at progressing, but I recognize that the bigger clubs may start to run into scheduling issues.  Having said that, an MLS side should have enough depth to send a B squad to beat the amateur sides, and it would be pretty exciting to allow for the David/Goliath storylines. 

[Califax]

Just now, dyslexic nam said:

I get the idea behind this, but seeding CPL teams not only below the MLS teams but also below the USL/NASL teams to me is a hard "no" from me.  I would rather err on the side of bumping up CPL clubs and seeding them on equal footing with MLS to increase their profile.  Even if they get beaten across the board by the MLS teams in the early years, it would still be better than our national association signalling that they are on par with the amateur champs of ON and QC. 

Ultimately I would like to see a more expansive competition where all teams are given equal shots at progressing, but I recognize that the bigger clubs may start to run into scheduling issues.  Having said that, an MLS side should have enough depth to send a B squad to beat the amateur sides, and it would be pretty exciting to allow for the David/Goliath storylines. 

After reading this, I agree. Optics matter as does doing it right from the start and giving CPL some teeth.

 

A very stereotypically canadian suggestion of me.

[Grizzly]

2 hours ago, Gian-Luca said:

The clips that I've seen (on the TSN website) don't have the questions included but first instance of blaming the refs occurs after he talks about how well he though his team played and don't seem to have been instigated by being asked about the officiating. He claims the team played well, created a bunch of chances and then said that the game was "decided" by the Ref. The follow up questions do appear to be specifically about the officiating but once he claims the game was "decided" by the officials, it falls into "blaming everything on the Ref" category for me and you can see why the media would pursue that line of inquiry with the follow up questions which then occur.

 

The guy who constantly blames the refs for every TFC loss is complaining about Biello blaming the refs?

[Kent]

For next year with 7 teams if I got to decide I would give the champs a bye and have the other 6 teams play a knockout round. Then you are left with 4 teams and it's easy from there on out.

I would probably prefer a non seeded draw for each round.

And before people scream TFC fan bias giving the champs a bye, I actually really wish I can see them play a L1O or PLSQ team, so in that regard I'm a bit disappointed at the thought of it not happening in the first round.

It will also be interesting to see at what point this tournament goes from 2 legged ties to single knockout. As the number of rounds grows it will be tougher and tougher to keep the 2 leg system.

[Gopherbashi]

4 minutes ago, Kent said:

It will also be interesting to see at what point this tournament goes from 2 legged ties to single knockout. As the number of rounds grows it will be tougher and tougher to keep the 2 leg system.

American MLS teams play 5 matches as part of the Open Cup, so I imagine they'll try to keep in comparable up here.

[Gopherbashi]

1 hour ago, Rheo said:

I can't see CPL being in next year.  If (and it's still if) they launch in 2018 it's not until late summer and would be too hard to pull off.  

I expect that (if the CPL starts next summer), we'll see the same rough schedule for the Voyageurs Cup that we had this year, meaning the CPL teams will miss it.

I don't think it's in the CPL's best interest to put their teams up against MLS during the first half-season when everyone's still going to be learning each others' names.

[Gopherbashi]

1 hour ago, Califax said:

Id love to see it get to a top 8. First round be cpl / league 1 / quebec. 

Get three winners out of that to meet mls 3 plus edmonton and ottawa.

CPL is going to be formally designated as Division 1 - there's no way they enter the cup before NASL and USL teams do.

[Gian-Luca]

50 minutes ago, Grizzly said:

The guy who constantly blames the refs for every TFC loss is complaining about Biello blaming the refs?

If Michael Bradley complained about Biello blaming the refs, it's news to me.

[Unnamed Trialist]

3 hours ago, Macksam said:

I've heard of Catalan independence being a thing but I never did any further research into it. Could you give me the cliff's note version of why some of your people (including the late Cruijff if I recall correctly) want to separate and what are the positives and negatives of doing so and not doing so.

You know, I really can't, too complicated.

I am actually quoted in this older article on the subject, from the BBC: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29915865

Not a bad summary , the writer used to be my editor.

BTW, Cruyff was not in favour of independance, he just had a strong love for Catalonia. He was the first person in decades of the Franco dictatorship to call a kid Jordi, legally, because of him being a foreigner, the name was banned. He lived in BCN too, and I often saw him often near his summer home, at the market in a nearby town. Though he never spoke Catalan.

[Zem]

7 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

I expect that (if the CPL starts next summer), we'll see the same rough schedule for the Voyageurs Cup that we had this year, meaning the CPL teams will miss it.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, the change in the CCL format means Canadian teams don't play continental games in the fall anymore, so it opens up the possibility of moving the VC to being a later-season competition, like most national cups are. It would be desirable as well, since you would have more in-form teams playing in what is for now the only route to the CCL.

[harrycoyster]

1 hour ago, Club Linesman said:

I am glad someone else noticed this and supports Osorio.  Being at the game I was pissed when he came off because he played well and Delgado was shite when he came on.  I am really looking forward to the Gold Cup and hoping tht Oso will begin playing with the confidence he had at the end of last year. 

We were watching two very different games. Delgado started the first TFC goal with an incredible first time pass to Bradley, got fouled for the Bernier red card, would have had an MLS assist on Giovinco's miss in the 87', and was a ball winning powerhouse in the entire second half. He straight up made 2-3 last man interceptions to stop the Impact from being 1v1 with the keeper.

If you think Osorio has a better game than Delgado you are letting your love of Osorio seriously cloud your judgment. 

[Gian-Luca]

2 hours ago, harrycoyster said:

I think, regardless of who the other midfielders are, Delgado is clearly the better two-way midfielder. That's not to say that he's all that great, but he is certainly a more well-rounded player. Osorio's role should be as Vazquez back-up, which will still net him a decent amount of minutes. You can even argue that Delgado is a better #10 than Osorio, as he is averaging .7 key passes per 90 minutes to Osorio's .2.

Fact is that Osorio flat out doesn't have the skill set to be an everyday starter in MLS, and definitely not on this TFC team. If it weren't for the Canadian quota, he doesn't start last night. He's stuck in the weird North American soccer hole of too good for USL/NASL and not good enough for MLS that I hope the CPL fills.

 

Whoa there - now he's suddenly  "not good enough for MLS"? I think he's played about 150 games for TFC (I think the all-time leader in that category) and still hasn't quite turned 25, so I'm not sure how much of a "fact" that is. I'm not overly fussed whether people think he's an automatic starter or not for TFC (widely - and currently statistically - seen at the top team in the league, where he has to compete against the top playmaker in the league and one of the most expensive DP's for 2 of the 3 spots in the formation that Vanney uses) but suggesting he isn't good enough to play in the league seems to be overstating the point.

And while I hope the CPL fill the sort of gap you are referring to, I am doubtful it will surpass the USL/NASL in quality in the forseeable future, although granted, we all need more info either way on that. Although that's probably a discussion for another thread.