Canadian Premier League

[Jason]

1 hour ago, -Hammer- said:

I'm inclined to think this is a sizing up meeting. Everything from MLSE saying "If you pull us from MLS expect to get sued" to "How can we make a compromise so you don't De-sanction us, which we know you aren't going to" to "I want our USL team to join, why can't it joint...it's pro..ish" to "We have market rights which we may or may not have." to "We're concerned that if our team starts to stink again, you'll steal fans from us" to "Sure, we'll run another independent team for giggles" to "BMO is ours, stay off the West Side"

There is just so much potential ground here, but I'm more inclined to think this is going to be TFC trying to size up what the CSA has in terms of the CanPL and gauging how much of a potential threat/opportunity/thing it may or may not be.

One thing we know about MLSE is they don't like competition.  Never mind their possible territorial rights re: NHL, but when the Oilers somehow thought it was a good idea to put their farm team in Toronto they did everything they could to stamp it out (timed a Leaf press conference at the same time as the AHL name announcement).  Also, MLSE held up the re-development of the old Gardens for years because they wanted to ensure that the building would never be able to compete against ACC for concerts and events.  The deal struck with Ryerson was very specific about a small capacity and other things to satisfy MLSE. 

Since they own TFC, MLSE does probably deserve to be kept in the loop in a general sense.  Maybe that's why they are doing the meeting.  Or maybe they see some value in it - either to make money or maybe to ensure they don't allow a competing ownership group into the market.  It would be mere pocket change for them to head a Toronto franchise and they might be willing to take some losses just to ensure they control the market.  And from their perspective, if it works out great and if it doesn't what's a few million?  And you know, it would probably be okay from a CPL point of view.  If anyone could make a second Toronto team work, it's probably MLSE.  They know more about selling sports in Toronto than anyone.  And you would never worry about them doing weird stuff or not paying the bills.

 

 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

I wonder if that would bother people if MLSE owned both Toronto teams?  Like it certainly would be good for both MLSE and CanPL in general if they were involved, but what about the fans?  If you were a manchester united fan, would it bother you if the same person owned manchester city?

It's a weird situation.  Not even sure how I feel about it.

[Michael Crampton]

7 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

If Jacob Peterson, Dan Gargan and Chad Barret were Canadian, their careers would have ended the moment TFC gave them the boot."

Jacob Peterson, Dan Gargan and Chad Barrett were three players that Toronto FC never should have got rid of.

[Michael Crampton]

3 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Will be interesting to see whether that means they really do intend to force the MLS teams into it by withdrawing their sanctioning or it's the reserve teams that are involved. At least this all seems to be approaching some sort of resolution now.

Who knows, it's not impossible that the CSA isn't determined to shoot the brains out of Canadian pro soccer.

The reality is that there are three stable professional clubs who have made the pro game work in Canada, and grow, for the first time in decades. Those clubs all operate second teams in the USL.

Maybe the CSA just wants to find out about how that relationship is working out for MLSE.

 

 

 

...

 

 

 

Nah, who am I kidding? Let's kick the country's three most popular clubs out of the Voyageur's Cup (like I keep seeing suggested). That's sure to make the tournament more popular.

[BrennanFan]

There is news floating around off the record about the Toronto CPL franchise ownership.  I assume nothing is being reported / allowed to be reported, in order to protect the league somehow.  I know that there are a lot of people who would like to see this project fail, so maybe the less said the better.

Very interesting that MLSE suddenly wants to talk CPL with CSA.

[matty]

4 hours ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

 

3 wouldn't make sense if Lamport is available which is perfect size.

Lamport's gonna be in use too much thanks to that rugby team hosting home games for 4 weeks at a time over the time frame the CPL will be playing

[-Hammer-]

1 hour ago, rob.notenboom said:

If that was the case and I were the CSA, that would be a short meeting. It would be 'none of your business thank you very much' and out the door. 

I disagree, and lets be honest here. Supporting the CanPL isn't necessarily anti-MLS. The CSA still wants TFC making players (even if it is in a limited fashion) they still want TFC academy and they want as many possible avenues they can find to develop players. The CSA isn't going to simply flip the bird to TFC (which makes this meeting even odder, since it's just TFC and MLSE not MLS) because despite all it's developmental flaws for our national team, the club has and continues to substantially raise the profile of the game in Canada.

Lets be honest, everyone in Hamilton and Ottawa would immediately buy tickets to see their city take on TFC. There is also plenty of benefits TFC can offer including player loans, getting it's competent reserves out of the USL who aren't quite ready to make the main squad and loan them to CanPL teams (for more pay) to get better minutes, a greatly expanded V.Cup that would certainly be attendance boons and better broadcast rights for all parties involve and of course expanding the academy system make sure fewer players slip through the gaping cracks (and giant chasm out west) in our country which could be of use if MLS ever actually amends the domestic player rule.

[shermanator]

14 minutes ago, Michael Crampton said:

Nah, who am I kidding? Let's kick the country's three most popular clubs out of the Voyageur's Cup (like I keep seeing suggested). That's sure to make the tournament more popular.

This hasn't been suggested at all in this thread. Not once.

[Michael Crampton]

2 minutes ago, shermanator said:

This hasn't been suggested at all in this thread. Not once.

Not sure where I said that it was. (And now you're making me want to go look.)

[Ansem]

Wouldn't MLSE owning both TFC and a CPL team consider a conflict of interest by MLS?

MLS strategy is clear for Canada...emulating what the other big leagues have done so far.

Have the whole country support the league via the limited franchise while continuing expansion in the US. 

That's why MLS has no interest in expanding in Canada, they expect the rest of the country to pick one of the 3 teams like what's being done for the Blue Jays and Raptors...to some extend our 7 NHL clubs.

CPL challenges that. Not sure they would be thrilled about one of their owners double dipping with the competition 

[CDNFootballer]

On 9/15/2016 at 10:26 AM, Complete Homer said:

I'm curious what happens when NASL is no longer in Canada, thereby eliminating our scant "Tier 2." Personally, I'd like to see some sort of small playoff between the D3 leagues so that we can call them all one "league" and proclaim it D2. That or the USL teams will become D2 once USL gets that label from the USSF.

With MLS D1 and CPL D1a the D2 spot in the Canadian Pyramid could remain vacant, would be counterproductive for CSA to sanction Usl D2 (if USSF approves their application) or continue with NASL in the D2 sanctioned spot.

NASL would likely join Usl as shut out from Canadian markets (other than existing Edmonton) when CPL launches.

 

Working the Canadian D3 league's up to a future D2 spot with CPL reserve clubs in them over time would make sense though.

[Ansem]

Most likely,

1-CPL will laugh their own academies and have them as Tier 2

2-Restructure D3 to be like the CHL with Memorial Cup tournament. Just like CHL, don't have to pay the players.

[Shway]

52 minutes ago, matty said:

Lamport's gonna be in use too much thanks to that rugby team hosting home games for 4 weeks at a time over the time frame the CPL will be playing

Hmm...don't think I agree with this. 

If the Argos can share with Toronto, why can't a Rugby team share with a CPL team that probably will not have as much home dates.

And looking at the League 1 schedule (Toronto Wolves) it's not a as complex as you think it is.

My standpoint is lamport is a great downtown stadium in a great location. It just needs some love and renovations which can be achieved with two tenants.

[matty]

6 minutes ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

Hmm...don't think I agree with this. 

If the Argos can share with Toronto, why can't a Rugby team share with a CPL team that probably will not have as much home dates.

And looking at the League 1 schedule (Toronto Wolves) it's not a as complex as you think it is.

My standpoint is lamport is a great downtown stadium in a great location. It just needs some love and renovations which can be achieved with two tenants.

I agree Lamport would be a good location but still feel the Wolfpack or Wolves (seen both used) is an unknown that could make scheduling two teams there in 2018 a problem

[shermanator]

1 hour ago, Michael Crampton said:

Not sure where I said that it was. (And now you're making me want to go look.)

Well, you said "like I keep seeing suggested". So.....where are you seeing this? Who is suggesting this?

[Michael Crampton]

On 7/21/2015 at 6:18 PM, CDNFootballer said:

If this new Canadian D1A league is launched awarding the Canadian concacaf champions league spot to the league champion would help with its profile and image.

Reddit every time the CPL idea gets mentioned (though, tbf, judging by flairs that's regularly, though not exclusively, from Americans who seem to want to tell Canada how to organize our professional game). I'm sure I *can* find examples on this board generally. And going back through the thread, the notion that the CCL spot should be given should be taken from the VoyCup--which would all but kill the tournament--and given to the CPL exclusively turns up on about p 6.

[Complete Homer]

34 minutes ago, Jahinho Guerro said:

Glitch

[Complete Homer]

11 minutes ago, Michael Crampton said:

Reddit every time the CPL idea gets mentioned (though, tbf, judging by flairs that's regularly, though not exclusively, from Americans who seem to want to tell Canada how to organize our professional game). I'm sure I *can* find examples on this board generally. And going back through the thread, the notion that the CCL spot should be given should be taken from the VoyCup--which would all but kill the tournament--and given to the CPL exclusively turns up on about p 6.

What I've seen usually suggested is the expectation that Canada will eventually get 2 CCL spots, 1 for V-cup and one for CPL champion. Given that we've actually done quite well with our one spot (inflating our FA's coefficient, assuming CONCACAF cares about that like other regions do) and we will have a pro league, the argument that some of these small poor performing FAs in central America get two and we only get one starts falling apart. I'm sure it will work out without antagonizing the MLS side 

[Complete Homer]

1 hour ago, BrennanFan said:

There is news floating around off the record about the Toronto CPL franchise ownership.  I assume nothing is being reported / allowed to be reported, in order to protect the league somehow.  I know that there are a lot of people who would like to see this project fail, so maybe the less said the better.

Very interesting that MLSE suddenly wants to talk CPL with CSA.

Off the record from some CSA source? Or elsewhere? I've seen some suggestions from fans but nothing else

[masster]

On 9/17/2016 at 8:32 PM, 1996 said:

Do I really want to go back to going to games in Toronto with 1000 people in the stands like the days of playing in the old CSL or the old A League days sorry no. I'm enjoying going to games with 30 000 people in the stands in Toronto or seeing games on TV from a sold out Saputo stadium or seeing over 20 000 at BC  when watching Vancouver play on TV. I don't think it will ever happen where the 3 MLS Canadian teams pull out of MLS, but if by some crazy way it ever happened that's the kind of crowds you would see back to your 1000 to 2000 a game in these 3 cities. I can feel for the soccer fans who live in non MLS cities in Canada wanting a Canadian league so that these cities have a pro soccer  team to follow and call their own, however, don't go trying to break up something that is working attendance wise in these three MLS cities, have a Canadian league by all means but keep the 3 Canadian MLS  teams where they are they are doing just fine thank you and all 3 are pretty popular within their own cities,

This seems like an odd position for somebody that cares about Canadian soccer. I would gladly trade the 22,000 at BC Place for 4,000 at Swangard if it was for the good of the game in this country. I understand that I'm probably in the minority.

[shermanator]

1 hour ago, Michael Crampton said:

Reddit every time the CPL idea gets mentioned (though, tbf, judging by flairs that's regularly, though not exclusively, from Americans who seem to want to tell Canada how to organize our professional game). I'm sure I *can* find examples on this board generally. And going back through the thread, the notion that the CCL spot should be given should be taken from the VoyCup--which would all but kill the tournament--and given to the CPL exclusively turns up on about p 6.

Okay, so go find these posts then. Until you do, I'm going to call bullshit regarding anyone on this board suggesting that the CSA should "kick the country's three most popular clubs out of the Voyageur's Cup". Because that would be sheer lunacy IMO.

[rob.notenboom]

3 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

I disagree, and lets be honest here. Supporting the CanPL isn't necessarily anti-MLS. The CSA still wants TFC making players (even if it is in a limited fashion) they still want TFC academy and they want as many possible avenues they can find to develop players. The CSA isn't going to simply flip the bird to TFC (which makes this meeting even odder, since it's just TFC and MLSE not MLS) because despite all it's developmental flaws for our national team, the club has and continues to substantially raise the profile of the game in Canada.

Lets be honest, everyone in Hamilton and Ottawa would immediately buy tickets to see their city take on TFC. There is also plenty of benefits TFC can offer including player loans, getting it's competent reserves out of the USL who aren't quite ready to make the main squad and loan them to CanPL teams (for more pay) to get better minutes, a greatly expanded V.Cup that would certainly be attendance boons and better broadcast rights for all parties involve and of course expanding the academy system make sure fewer players slip through the gaping cracks (and giant chasm out west) in our country which could be of use if MLS ever actually amends the domestic player rule.

I would agree with most of that. But I would also be quite concerned about MLSE taking preemptive action to keep competition out of what they might construe as 'their market'. Who knows what they have in their arsenal.

[rob.notenboom]

3 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

There is news floating around off the record about the Toronto CPL franchise ownership.  I assume nothing is being reported / allowed to be reported, in order to protect the league somehow.  I know that there are a lot of people who would like to see this project fail, so maybe the less said the better.

Very interesting that MLSE suddenly wants to talk CPL with CSA.

@Hammer

This is what I'm concerned about, and I suspect to some extent why the CanPL details have been so hard to come by ... They don't want to tell until it's safe to do so. 

[shermanator]

Well, according to this article, TFC want to be involved. But the quotes given seem to indicate they would want it to be for a reserve team or even a U-20 team. Based on these quotes, I think they are in for a rude awakening on what the CSA's aspirations for a CPL are. This league won't serve the purpose of simply developing players for MLS clubs. That's what the current USL clubs are for.

Perhaps MLS clubs can loan players to the CPL to get minutes. But reserve teams? Might as well but a bullet in the CPL's head before it launches.

http://www.torontosun.com/2016/09/19/mls-crunches-the-numbers-and-takes-away-tfcs-x

Quote

 

“Opportunities for more Canadian players is something Toronto FC wants to support,” Manning told the Toronto Sun last week. “We just have to figure out how we can be involved.

...

The question, though, is what the CSA wants it to be.

Having MLS affiliation would undoubtedly give the CPL a minor-league feel.

“If we can provide for our young players coming up and (TFC) can put a team in that league, we’re interested,” Manning added.

...

“Could we get away with TFC III — which will be an under-20 team — playing in the CPL?” Manning wondered, adding that he and general manager Tim Bezbatchenko have weighed options.

...

“I like the concept of Canadian teams playing Canadian teams,” Manning said. “Could there be a Canadian division within the USL?”

It’s clear TFC’s top brass want to be involved — something Manning said goes for the rest of Canada’s MLS franchises.

“They (Vancouver Whitecaps and Montreal Impact) just want to figure out the best way to develop players for the MLS teams,” Manning said.

“What we don’t want to do is have a situation where we’re competing for players with the CPL teams. I don’t think that’s going to happen.”

 

[Macksam]

53 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

I would agree with most of that. But I would also be quite concerned about MLSE taking preemptive action to keep competition out of what they might construe as 'their market'. Who knows what they have in their arsenal.

It's obviously this. They want information. If the meeting is nothing more than a method for MLSE to add notes to its SWOT analysis, it should be treated like a poker game by the CSA. They need to keep the cards close.

Also, if I see MLSE having a stake in the CPL team, which I doubt, I am having none of it. It will be hello Hamilton for me.

4 hours ago, Michael Crampton said:

Jacob Peterson, Dan Gargan and Chad Barrett were three players that Toronto FC never should have got rid of.

What are you on about? They were all dished off for good reason. 

Chad Barrett literally missed all his scoring chances when he was here, Dan Gargan was complete vanilla and Jacob Peterson was arguably the worst player that ever suited up for us. When it comes to Peterson, him showing some usefulness now at Sporting KC tells me guys like Matt Stinson and Joey Melo could still be in this league if they were American.