Kent Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 1 hour ago, Viruk42 said: The Ottawa Fury are the first ever professional soccer team in Ottawa. I agree with most of your post about Reme's dreams are overly optimistic (but still a wonderful dream), but Injust thought I would give a shout out to the Ottawa pioneers/intrepid of the pro version of the CSL. I think if pro/rel were to be attained, the only way to do it would be to build from the ground up. Something like creating more L1O type leagues across the country. Then years and years later, if there are teams that are supported well enough and perform well enough, they could be promoted into a D2 league that maybe is split into two conferences or leagues, east and west. There could be promotion and relegation between the D2 and D3 leagues. Then years and years later if teams are supported well enough and expansion keeps happening a D1 could be created by promoting several D2 teams. As fun as this stuff is to talk about, I don't believe I will live to see the day of pro/rel in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viruk42 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 9 minutes ago, Kent said: I agree with most of your post about Reme's dreams are overly optimistic (but still a wonderful dream), but Injust thought I would give a shout out to the Ottawa pioneers/intrepid of the pro version of the CSL. Ah, yes, my mistake, I didn't really know of that version of the CSL and skipped over it assuming it was the same as the current edition (to be fair, I was only born in '86). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baulderdash77 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 I think it's been confirmed by Rollins that there will be no relegation method. It's a fairly asinine position to speak to a relegation when we will probably never get to more than 1/2 a full table size and there's no D2 league to get relegated to in any rate. Plus there is no promotion or relegation in any North American professional sports league. There doesn't seem to be any consideration of the realities of the North American sports landscape. Can the pro/rep conversation just end? It's done, dusted, never ever going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 1 hour ago, baulderdash77 said: I think it's been confirmed by Rollins that there will be no relegation method. It's a fairly asinine position to speak to a relegation when we will probably never get to more than 1/2 a full table size and there's no D2 league to get relegated to in any rate. Plus there is no promotion or relegation in any North American professional sports league. There doesn't seem to be any consideration of the realities of the North American sports landscape. Can the pro/rep conversation just end? It's done, dusted, never ever going to happen. What, you don't think a 4 team D1 and a 4 team D2 is sustainable? You fool, think about the glorious relegation battle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 5 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said: How long have you lived in Canada? Getting 5,000 to 7,500 in the GTA to regularly show up and just as importantly actually pay to see pro soccer has only been achieved by TFC in the last thirty years. Other attempts in D1 Canadian leagues and D2 USSF leagues have struggled to even reach four figures consistently in terms of paid as opposed to announced attendance. Outside of this messageboard this debate barely even registers with most soccer fans in Canada. Here's the response to the Guardian article so far on RPB's main subforum: http://forums.redpatchboys.ca/showthread.php?39446-Another-reason-I-would-like-to-see-a-Canada-Only-league Yeah, but you saying TFC are the only ones that can do it, and that if they didn't exist, a Toronto based club in a Canadian league would only average 5000 is the issue. If TFC didn't exist, a Toronto based team in an all Canadian league would easily average 20000+ if done right. Hell, even with the MLS next door, a Toronto based CPL can draw 20000 if done right. Also, in reference to your link, 2 replies? Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hammer- Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 7 hours ago, reme90 said: You don't seem to capture the irony of your statement. "MLS running another club out of town" yet the last couple of years a"solid chunk of their fanbase" would have supported another club??? Which is it? TFC is a cookie cutter franchise with consumers. The CANPL has a chance to build a CLUB, that represents the city and it's people. There are MILLIONS of people who don't support TFC and within those millions is a Soccer-First demographic that HATES MLS and everything it stands for. They support real authentic soccer and they are hungry for a club of their own. They would become true SUPPORTERS who don't jump ship because its a bad season. For an investor, Toronto is ripe. Offer the supporters a chance to become shareholders, heck make the team Maple Leaf BLUE just to piss off TFC and watch a heated DERBY unfold, something like North America has never seen. I do, and I think I got my wires crossed on that post, as I believe I was posting in the MLS Garber domestics thread about it. I think Toronto has large enough a market to sustain a CPL team and an MLS team, and I think the last few seasons there were a lot of disenfranchised TFC fans who would have easily jumped ship to another local team and I think there are enough people in Toronto to make it work and it certainly becomes more viable with nearby teams in Hamilton and Ottawa potentially paying visits. As far as Montreal and Vancouver, I'm not so sure. I think both teams have a bigger history and it's very clear that the Saputo's care about soccer more and less about making money with the club then MLSE does and while I've heard complaints out of the Whitecaps camp, I'm not well informed enough about the region to say that a CPL team would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
to70 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 5 minutes ago, Macksam said: Yeah, but you saying TFC are the only ones that can do it, and that if they didn't exist, a Toronto based club in a Canadian league would only average 5000 is the issue. If TFC didn't exist, a Toronto based team in an all Canadian league would easily average 20000+ if done right. Hell, even with the MLS next door, a Toronto based CPL can draw 20000 if done right. What dream world are you living. If you've lived in Toronto area you should know that a CPL team will come close to those figures. They'll be lucky to get 10% of your numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macksam Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 26 minutes ago, to70 said: What dream world are you living. If you've lived in Toronto area you should know that a CPL team will come close to those figures. They'll be lucky to get 10% of your numbers. They'll come close to those figures and yet only get 2000 people? Also, where does the dream world come in? I've said it before the club can achieve those numbers if they hit the ground running. If you build a world class 20000-25000 seater venue in Mississauga or Markham, promote the team right, price it affordably, it can be done. You have to make the team look like MLS' equal. However, if you don't do those things, make the team play out of Lamport, pretty much scream the team is second tier, then you'll get numbers that are more in your range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 This thread swings between wild optimism and ridiculous pessimism on a daily basis. VWC II has hit 3000 attendees this season and is averaging just under 2000. TFC II is averaging around 1000. This is with zero marketing and obvious minor league labelling. A large portion of MLS fans don't even know about these teams and they manage to approach to70's mark. I'm wouldn't say 20k is likely at all, I'd be happy with 5k within the few years, but I could see a GTA team building towards 20k in the long term if done right. Saying they'd be lucky to draw 2000 is pessimism for the sake of pessimism. Even if the first year isn't a resounding success, Ottawa has seen double digit gains in attendance every year, which clearly shows that these teams can eventually get some traction. Not every team will be perfect (see FC Edmonton's struggles), but if it is single entity teams can survive while they figure their markets out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazlo_80 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 I imagine the owners would be thrilled with a 10K average league attendance considering the circumstances surrounding this league. I don't think in any realistic terms you could expect the attendance to go toe-to-toe with MLS from day one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 ^I have a gut feeling that one team might manage to pull a Cincinnati. Maybe Hamilton, considering the FO seems interested in pushing the league hard and there's already a decent following on Twitter for the supporters group. If any of the teams pull it off, it would be a major boon, as I'm sure it would give the league a few extra news stories and revenue would presumably be spread across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazlo_80 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Just now, Complete Homer said: ^I have a gut feeling that one team might manage to pull a Cincinnati. Maybe Hamilton, considering the FO seems interested in pushing the league hard and there's already a decent following on Twitter for the supporters group. If any of the teams pull it off, it would be a major boon, as I'm sure it would give the league a few extra news stories and revenue would presumably be spread across the board. to that point, you could see how...say the kick off day in Hamilton could be a sell out and other special games which would help bump the attendance. Stuff like that would go a long way to helping the perceived value of the league, especially for the televised games...when you watch an MLS Portland game on TV it sells the league alot better than an empty stadium in Columbus or Chicago. Perception is going to be an important battle to fight in this leagues development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 ^Exactly. Unless the powers that decide where my residency will be take pity on me, I will only get to spend less than half of 2018 I Hamilton. I really hope I'll be able to be in the supporters section for the first match at the very least, it's going to be a historic moment IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazlo_80 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 2 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: ^Exactly. Unless the powers that decide where my residency will be take pity on me, I will only get to spend less than half of 2018 I Hamilton. I really hope I'll be able to be in the supporters section for the first match at the very least, it's going to be a historic moment IMO Agreed. I already got my supporters scarf. Unfortunately I now live in the states so it'll be tough to make it up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reme90 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 4 hours ago, Viruk42 said: Point 1) So I've been reading your comments on this thread for a little bit, and I feel like you're putting the cart before the horse here. We don't have a league right now, we have 5 pro teams (3 of which won't be joining our league anytime soon), and yet we're somehow going to magically conjure up the 30+ teams required to make a pro/rel league within the next few years? Point 2) But why would those people follow "real authentic soccer" here? wouldn't they also support our national team, Point 3) But there is simply *no* evidence to suggest it would work. .... And yet they're averaging just ~5,500 fans this year, their highest attended year yet. Their highest attendance for a single game was the opener at TD place, with 14,593. The best otherwise was 9,346. I'm a socialist, Point 1) We are all looking to BUILD something are we not? I'm not a contractor but isn't the FOUNDATION the most important part of the build? Get that wrong and no matter what you do the house is doomed?That's what I'm talking about FOUNDATION. The CANPL must be built with a clearly defined criteria for any club wishing to MERIT their way into Division 1. That's ALL I'm talking about. AN OPEN SYSTEM. Nobody here is suggesting the CANPL magically start with 30+ teams. In fact, the Open system CanPL will start exactly the same way the closed Franchise system will, with 6 teams. So Reme what's the difference? In real world scenario and practically speaking, any club/investor/community will know exactly what they need to do to get "promoted" into Division 1. This speaks to financial viability, facilities, coaching standards, sponsor, or whatever other criteria that is deemed necessary. Say Calgary Foothills finds an investor and the Oakville club with their 15K members also gets ambitious, what if the Toronto Lynx want to throw their hat in the ring and what if the VWCFC decide that their USL team should be in the CanPL? What you would do is establish 2 regional divisions, EAST and WEST, with the winners meeting in a home and away series to determine who gets promoted in the CanPL for the next season. For those that need a visual: WEST: Foothills v Whitecaps USL 4 games total EAST: Lynx v Oakville 4 games total Finals: Winner West v Winner East In the second season of the CanPL it would start with 7 clubs, (the original 6 + the promoted club). The regional leagues would continue with 3 clubs, and repeat the process. This serves as an incentive to any club/ investor or organization that they can enter the Soccer Market with very little financial risk. They can spend 1-5 years in the Regional 2nd division building a club, a brand, a fanbase and a business model. Why would fans follow say the Calgary Foothills? Because they get to be a part of building something that represents them with a clearly defined goal of reaching the Premier League. The fans would take ownership of how well the club does, it engages the whole community to back the team. Corporate sponsors will take notice and jump on board. PROMOTION JUMPSTARTS INVESTMENT. But what about RELEGATION? STOP IT, JUST STOP. Enough with that word, no-one is getting relegated for at least 20 years and only after there is 20+ clubs in the Premier League, which I'm frequently told is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve. So if 20 clubs is impossible to achieve WHY ARE WE AFRAID TO SUPPORT AN OPEN SYSTEM? It seems it would be all Promotion and no Relegation? Re-Read that. POINT 2) Nobody supports the CanMNT because it has been Neglected and mis-managed for over 30+ years. If the CSA didn't care enough to support our teams do you think the fans will? Everyone here knows Im speaking the truth here. POINT 3) So no evidence? Then you proceed to provide me with evidence. The Fury with no hope in hell of ever earning their way into Division 1, has attracted enough investment to build a stadium, built a fanbase of over 5K, has attracted fans in the range of 14K, produced a quality competitive team? So why can't the CANPL work? Isn't the 5k-7,500K the range we want for the CanPL The Franchise model IS THE SOCIALIST model, it monopolizes the product(D1 soccer) into the hands of the very few and rich. The institute anti-competition rules like territory rights, free movement of players, and a protectionist form of government. I guess if you like Venezuela, then socialism is for you. I prefer the Canadian way, a free open market where anyone is welcome to compete. 3 hours ago, dyslexic nam said: ^^^ In a nutshell, there is a reason MLS went with the structure it did. Its because the more "authentic" alternative was deemed unsustainable and/or implausible by the folks who spent a lot of time and effort deciding how to structure the league. Yes the reason is it monopolizes the power into the hands of the very rich and few. Closed system benefits ONLY the Billionaire owners. It works against the people, the players, and investors (outside of the selected elite). 3 hours ago, Ruffian said: CPL will also be franchise owned. Just as "authentic" as MLS. I will support these teams just as much as MLS because hopefully they will drive better Canadian soccer player development. I don't understand why so many people are against a league just because it is not exactly how they would have built it. It is local soccer that I can watch and support. For me it is better than supporting a team from the country I was born in and rarely get to watch or feel part of. "Support these teams JUST AS MUCH as MLS" Well that isn't alot of support at all. 50K for a primtime game in a country of 300 million? 15K attendance in Urban areas of Millions? Is this as high as you can DREAM for Canadian Soccer. I have more faith in my fellow Canadians. Also, MLS teams represent the local people as much as Chivas USA represented Latinos or even Mexicans in particular. The clubs that do represent the people are not even allowed into MLS haha (SACFC, Detroit FC, CINN FC) 2 hours ago, Kent said: I agree with most of your post about Reme's dreams are overly optimistic (but still a wonderful dream), but Injust thought I would give a shout out to the Ottawa pioneers/intrepid of the pro version of the CSL. I think if pro/rel were to be attained, the only way to do it would be to build from the ground up. Something like creating more L1O type leagues across the country. Then years and years later, if there are teams that are supported well enough and perform well enough, they could be promoted into a D2 league that maybe is split into two conferences or leagues, east and west. There could be promotion and relegation between the D2 and D3 leagues. Then years and years later if teams are supported well enough and expansion keeps happening a D1 could be created by promoting several D2 teams. As fun as this stuff is to talk about, I don't believe I will live to see the day of pro/rel in Canada. The only way that ANYONE would invest in D3 or D2 soccer IS if the CanPL is built with a clearly defined OPEN system of promotion into the PL. If it starts with a closed model you can wait another 100 years you will never see a D3 or D2. 2 hours ago, baulderdash77 said: I think it's been confirmed by Rollins that there will be no relegation method. There doesn't seem to be any consideration of the realities of the North American sports landscape. Can the pro/rep conversation just end? It's done, dusted, never ever going to happen. Remember when MLS took into "consideration the realities of the North American sports Landscape" Countdown clock, Running Penalties, Names like Clash and Wizards, and colors that still hurt my eyes. But Why not let's make ALL the mistakes MLS 1.0 made and make it tailor made for the North American sports dude. People here have access to Barclays, Bundesliga, CHampions League, La LIga, and South American soccer and THEY CAN:T GET ENOUGH, but sure lets make it more like Hockey to attract any fans. FOR GOODNESS SAKES, stop trying to reach the casual fan and give the Soccer-First Demographic what we want. The Real Authentic Football, and yes call it football. 1 hour ago, Complete Homer said: What, you don't think a 4 team D1 and a 4 team D2 is sustainable? You fool, think about the glorious relegation battle! Why would we have relegation with 8 teams? Have we thought this through? The D2 would only serve as a way for investors to test the soccer market with very little financial risk. Promotion would be granted to those who have the financial backing, community backing, facilities and coaching standards. 53 minutes ago, -Hammer- said: As far as Montreal and Vancouver, I'm not so sure. I think both teams have a bigger history and it's very clear that the Saputo's care about soccer more and less about making money with the club then MLSE does and while I've heard complaints out of the Whitecaps camp, I'm not well informed enough about the region to say that a CPL team would work. Then have their USL teams play in the CanPL, its a win win for everyone. the CanPL gets more teams and in big markets. The MLS teams get meaningful minutes for their USL clubs and there is no interference with either. 51 minutes ago, to70 said: What dream world are you living. If you've lived in Toronto area you should know that a CPL team will come close to those figures. They'll be lucky to get 10% of your numbers. Read Below 3 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: This thread swings between wild optimism and ridiculous pessimism on a daily basis. VWC II has hit 3000 attendees this season and is averaging just under 2000. TFC II is averaging around 1000. This is with zero marketing and obvious minor league labelling. A large portion of MLS fans don't even know about these teams and they manage to approach to70's mark. I'm wouldn't say 20k is likely at all, I'd be happy with 5k within the few years, but I could see a GTA team building towards 20k in the long term if done right. Saying they'd be lucky to draw 2000 is pessimism for the sake of pessimism. Even if the first year isn't a resounding success, Ottawa has seen double digit gains in attendance every year, which clearly shows that these teams can eventually get some traction. Not every team will be perfect (see FC Edmonton's struggles), but if it is single entity teams can survive while they figure their markets out. Can I shake your hand good sir. But people here feel TFC is Untouchable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lazlo_80 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Don't expect the USL teams of the MLS teams to play in the CPL. From what I've heard there's a very serious concern it would tarnish the image of the league. They don't want to come off like a farm league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyslexic nam Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 Not going to wade through all that. I am just going to point out that MLS is succeeding through a strong structure and slow incremental growth where other US/North American leagues have floundered or failed. People can (and do) complain about Garber, but he has led MLS to legitimacy and relevancy in a way that has never been sustained on this continent. You are trying to impose an 'old world' sporting structure on a 'new world' sporting landscape. The reality is that no North American pro leagues operate in the way you are advocating - and they work just fine. Rather than ask why people resist the idea of replicating the European model, why not ask why we should replicate it. Yes, promotion/relegation can be exciting. It can also financially cripple a club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viruk42 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 3 minutes ago, reme90 said: The Franchise model IS THE SOCIALIST model, it monopolizes the product(D1 soccer) into the hands of the very few and rich. The institute anti-competition rules like territory rights, free movement of players, and a protectionist form of government. I guess if you like Venezuela, then socialism is for you. I prefer the Canadian way, a free open market where anyone is welcome to compete. So, I'm going to skip the rest because I don't have time, but I don't think you really know what socialism is. It's not about ownership by the "very few and rich" (that's more like the monopolistic form of capitalism that currently operates throughout most of the "free" world), indeed, that's the opposite of socialism. Socialism "advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole". In other words, the teams and league should be owned and run by some form of the community. Ottawa-Gatineau's 1.2million people could own a team, or Kanata's 80,000 could, or whichever community. No rich guy (ala Eugene Melnyk) coming along and running the show, taking all the profits (if there are any, of course). Sort of more like the German system of ownership, where no single person can have a majority share in the team, with a couple exceptions. Territory rights, free movement of players, etc, is secondary and occurs just as often in capitalism as it does in socialism. So is the "free open market". You want anyone with the money to be able to compete, whether it's a group of 10,000 people who split things equally (i.e. socialism) or 1 rich guy who comes in and dominates because he's a billionaire (i.e. capitalism). That's fine, I don't entirely disagree, as we shouldn't be restricting ourselves to one or the other - though we should be putting rules in place to ensure neither is prioritized and given an advantage either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffian Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 15 minutes ago, reme90 said: "Support these teams JUST AS MUCH as MLS" Well that isn't alot of support at all. 50K for a primtime game in a country of 300 million? Why would you purposely misquote me? I said "I" would support these teams just as much as MLS. I don't presume that I can decide what other Canadians will watch and I don't think your opinion of what Canadians "should" do will have any effect on them either. There are actual people making a huge effort to improve Canadian soccer and not just making demands as to how they expect a league to be on a Canadian soccer forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironcub14 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 On 2016-09-10 at 0:59 AM, Complete Homer said: I can see your concern, but I think large groups have the luxury of true long term speculation. I read a report recently that, when considering the DP signings and transfer fees, TFC still fails to turn a true profit. That's ten years after launch. Does MLSE seem to care? No, likely because the value of their asset has skyrocketed because they got on the train fairly early and they are trying to position themselves as soccer grabs more and more market share over the coming decades. I don't see that as "artificially creating clubs", but rather running deficits in the hopes of having a truly valuable asset in the long term, just like most startups do Sorry for the reply a week late, have I missed anything these past 7 days? I've been having a number of CPL conversations and lively debates on FB, Twitter and Reddit the past week, but I'm happy to finally get back on the V's thread. You do make a great point, on running deficits in the hopes of creating a valuable asset years down the road, just as a startup would, I can wholeheartedly agree with that statement and the intent behind the initial financial investments. I’ll point out the couple big differences I see between the “TFC joining MLS” scenario and “8 new clubs creating a CPL” scenario, though. We are comparing a scenario where a megalopolis joined an existing 1st division league, with all the hype and excitement that was attached to this, versus a scenario where 8 cities composed primarily of medium-sized populations came together to create a league that is realistically D1A or D2 within North America, which is the context that an average soccer fan will be using to judge CPL; I believe the majority of soccer fans in Canada will think of CPL, when they first hear of it, as a “D2 league in N America below MLS”, rather than a “D1 league in Canada”, no matter how much advertising the league does to try to position itself otherwise. Based on these differences, I’m not sure, purely financially speaking, if I see an investment that will grow into what it needs to be to sustain a CPL 5-20 years down the road from 2018, especially compared to the “TFC joining MLS” scenario. I do hope the CPL owners are more than comfortable with the deficits, and that they are willing to stick with it through whatever comes at them. I hope they exercise that luxury of the long-term speculation that will be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 6 minutes ago, ironcub14 said: Sorry for the reply a week late, have I missed anything these past 7 days? I've been having a number of CPL conversations and lively debates on FB, Twitter and Reddit the past week, but I'm happy to finally get back on the V's thread. You do make a great point, on running deficits in the hopes of creating a valuable asset years down the road, just as a startup would, I can wholeheartedly agree with that statement and the intent behind the initial financial investments. I’ll point out the couple big differences I see between the “TFC joining MLS” scenario and “8 new clubs creating a CPL” scenario, though. We are comparing a scenario where a megalopolis joined an existing 1st division league, with all the hype and excitement that was attached to this, versus a scenario where 8 cities composed primarily of medium-sized populations came together to create a league that is realistically D1A or D2 within North America, which is the context that an average soccer fan will be using to judge CPL; I believe the majority of soccer fans in Canada will think of CPL, when they first hear of it, as a “D2 league in N America below MLS”, rather than a “D1 league in Canada”, no matter how much advertising the league does to try to position itself otherwise. Based on these differences, I’m not sure, purely financially speaking, if I see an investment that will grow into what it needs to be to sustain a CPL 5-20 years down the road from 2018, especially compared to the “TFC joining MLS” scenario. I do hope the CPL owners are more than comfortable with the deficits, and that they are willing to stick with it through whatever comes at them. I hope they exercise that luxury of the long-term speculation that will be needed. Oh I absolutely agree, CPL teams will not see the kind of growth in asset value that TFC has had (expansion fee rising from 10 million to ~150 million + facilities), my only point was that speculation on asset growth is the primary reason to invest (outside of philanthropy) right now, not annual profit in the short to medium term. When most of the initial investment for some ownership groups (like CFL operated ones that already have a stadium) are just expansions of your existing overhead, even relatively small gains in value can compensate for the losses sustained until the league breaks even. As for key things missed....lots of mostly pointless debate as to whether or not MLS teams could be forced into CPL (they won't)...Totera reporting that there will be an MLS-like business plan (whether that is single entity or something close to it is unknown)...and the CSA publicly acknowledging that 2018 is the planned launch date that they are optimistic about their progress towards (though I believe Vic said in one of the interviews that There has also been debate about MLS domestic player quotas that probably belonged in another thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironcub14 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 On 2016-09-10 at 1:11 AM, Complete Homer said: Primarily because it was the worst of all worlds. It is/was very unstable, had restrictions on Canadian expansion that ensured one additional team was the short term limit and further teams would have had to wait until the NASL miraculously acquired a large net gain of franchises, the league is/was experiencing salary inflation driven by two delusional ownership groups, the league's direction was not under real Canadian influence, and the CSA had not and probably would not enact any real Canadian content quota. For people complaining about immediacy, I can't see ever getting more than 2 more Canadian franchises. For people complaining about CPL stability, NASL appears to be fighting for its very existence. I can't imagine what anyone worried about those issues would suggest NASL For reference, USSF requires Division 2 leagues to have American domestic quotas and 75% American teams. As USL aspires to become D2, they have all the same issues except for stability. If we want a league that we can have 8 new teams and garauntee adequate domestic spots, we have to make our own, instead of hoping the Americans don't act in their own best interests I completely agree with you on all the shortcomings that NASL had prior, and has now as well. That’s why I pointed out that I backed away from a NASL Canada idea around May 2015, with the key factors being the negative media coverage that came out of the CONCACAF/Traffic Sports scandal that erupted that month and brought NASL into that discussion as well, and the Puerto Rico expansion in June 2015 that hampered Hamilton with respect to the 75% continental USA quota. That said, I do not see the same issues that I saw with NASL back in May 2015, with USL at the present moment. Let's assume, for argument's sake, that USL acquired USSF D2 status for 2017. With respect to the 25% non-continental USA restriction, as of the 2017 season, USL only has 3 Canadian clubs out of its 30 clubs. You could add 6 Canadian clubs in 2017 and still fit within the 25% restriction, as the league would be composed of 9 Canadian clubs out of 36 in total. As for USSF D2 American quotas, the only one I’m aware of is the 7 internationals quota and the Canadians as domestics restrictions that is currently imposed on American NASL clubs. I would assume that Uncle Vic is working hard on negotiating that 2nd point at the moment, and we can only hope that the conclusion would be a satisfactory outcome that perhaps treats all academy graduates as domestics, as discussed upthread. In this scenario, which sounds quite realistic to me, we would have a D2 USL in 2017 that is friendlier towards Canadians than NASL back in 2015. But without a doubt, the biggest challenges to a USL Canada would be the need for some intense negotiations for CSA to be a big enough player in administering USL jointly with USSF, and the number of MLS B teams and affiliates in USL that seems to turn off some footy fans. I believe the first point is down to boardroom negotiations, and we can all only guess as to how Uncle Vic will fare. The second point, I would argue that reserve teams in the pyramid play an integral role in player development, and that we should be doing far more to support TFC II, FC Mtl and Caps 2 than what we are doing at the moment, and my belief that the roster quality for 2018 CPL clubs would lie somewhere closer to 2016 USL rosters than 2016 NASL rosters. Yes, I have seen the CSA articles and tweets on Uncle Vic's plans for a 2018 CPL launch this week. And yes, I have no doubt that CSA is far more interested in pursuing the CPL route as opposed to a USL Canada route, as do many of the V's, particularly the ones reading this CPL thread. But the number of V's who have expressed hope for USL expansion in the past on this thread, and the rumours that have come out of the Ottawa camp regarding a USL route, and the CSA's well-documented courting of a NASL Canada in the past, all of that combined leads me to believe that a USL route is a more than justifiable Plan B that the CSA should consider, and is probably considering, as a backup or an alternative plan to growing pro club footy in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Complete Homer Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 ^ I should have waited to reply to all parts You're right, the issues with domestic status may be resolved. Vic's comments weren't around when I made that comment before, and it is more likely now than it was before that that particular issue could be ameliorated. I'd still prefer a scenario where the CSA held all the cards, rather than waiting on the USSF and hoping they don't change their mind back, but it is a fair point. As a plan B, I agree that USL is a viable route, assuming they waive the expansion fees. If the league is delayed beyond 2018, the CSA should allow franchises that are ready to go to start in USL prior to the jump. Even if CPL falls apart, I expect that the stronger franchises would find a way to integrate into an existing league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironcub14 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 2 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: Oh I absolutely agree, CPL teams will not see the kind of growth in asset value that TFC has had (expansion fee rising from 10 million to ~150 million + facilities), my only point was that speculation on asset growth is the primary reason to invest (outside of philanthropy) right now, not annual profit in the short to medium term. When most of the initial investment for some ownership groups (like CFL operated ones that already have a stadium) are just expansions of your existing overhead, even relatively small gains in value can compensate for the losses sustained until the league breaks even. As for key things missed....lots of mostly pointless debate as to whether or not MLS teams could be forced into CPL (they won't)...Totera reporting that there will be an MLS-like business plan (whether that is single entity or something close to it is unknown)...and the CSA publicly acknowledging that 2018 is the planned launch date that they are optimistic about their progress towards (though I believe Vic said in one of the interviews that There has also been debate about MLS domestic player quotas that probably belonged in another thread Before I say anything, I should have made my sarcasm a bit more clearer regarding whether I missed any key things this past week. I've been commenting like crazy on the 3 other social media platforms I had mentioned, with respect to those issues that came into the forefront this week, but more importantly, I spent the better part of this beautiful Friday workday catching up to the last 13 pages of this thread over the past 6 days. It was quite informative, and entertaining, to say the least. I won't dredge up the arguments that have been had over the past 6 days in this thread. I did appreciate Guillermo's entertaining attempts at keeping peace on this thread, even if they were not always successful And I do see your point that the initial investments may be just small expansions of the existing overhead, and we all do appreciate that that was why the partnership with CFL was such a fantastic idea to begin with. I am literally just worried that attendance figures, I'm completely speculating, may be so low in even just 1 out of the 8 cities, that the ownership group will deem it pointless to continue onto the next season. I understand that a struggling franchise will be supported by the rest of the league's ownerships, but I worry about a domino effect. I'll expand on that just a little bit in my next and final post for the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironcub14 Posted September 16, 2016 Share Posted September 16, 2016 9 minutes ago, Complete Homer said: ^ I should have waited to reply to all parts You're right, the issues with domestic status may be resolved. Vic's comments weren't around when I made that comment before, and it is more likely now than it was before that that particular issue could be ameliorated. I'd still prefer a scenario where the CSA held all the cards, rather than waiting on the USSF and hoping they don't change their mind back, but it is a fair point. As a plan B, I agree that USL is a viable route, assuming they waive the expansion fees. If the league is delayed beyond 2018, the CSA should allow franchises that are ready to go to start in USL prior to the jump. Even if CPL falls apart, I expect that the stronger franchises would find a way to integrate into an existing league. It's my bad man, I'm replying to your comments, your replies, that were from nearly a week ago, lol. And I do hear you, and I've heard from others as well, on that point. That even if CPL falls apart, that the stronger clubs will most definitely find new homes in other leagues, whatever the landscape looks like at that point. And allowing them to go into USL prior to the jump if the league is delayed, that sounds like a solid idea as well. I'm just going to add one final long post in a bit, but basically, I'm just extending that argument a bit further to ask what is so wrong about asking the clubs to incubate first in the existing leagues, and then create a CPL later on when all the clubs are hopefully booming? Because to me, the CPL is the holy grail, and it must be done properly at all costs, however long it takes. And I'm thinking it might take a decade rather than the 2 years CSA has currently set as its goal. And when I say that it's done properly, I'm asking that we already have an existing professional club football scene throughout Canada, and then create a league afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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