Canadian Premier League

[-Hammer-]

Anyways, another great video by Andrew Totera

 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

5 minutes ago, -Hammer- said:

So you say in two posts "We need more pro teams" and then say "But we need to get really and start working more with a league that has stated outright they have no further intrest in giving Canada any more pro teams." The same league that despite us requesting more Canadians be present in it's top tier several times, and that Canadians be treated as domestics several times has refused to budge on this matter.

The CSA agreed to MLS expansion into Canada and also signed off on the current domestic player rule arrangements. It wasn't something that was forced on them. Did you read the recent Guardian article?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/13/mls-canada-american-citizens

“There is some movement with MLS where a Canadian player has an opportunity other than just with three teams,” he says. “It is an opportunity where players who come through the system are going to be considered domestics on both side of the ledger. With a pro league, a lot of the challenges can always be overcome by money.”

That doesn't sound like refusing to budge to me.

[reme90]

1 hour ago, -Hammer- said:

In my eyes, having the USL farms in the league, because as I stated earlier I can fully see a GTA CanPL team working in Toronto ... Besides, I have severe doubts that suddenly you are going to see a wellspring of support for those three franchises because they jumped to the CanPL ..

Lets not kid ourselves, the USL squads draw exceptionally poorly in this country because #1 they are farms, #2 the level they tend to play at is lower then even NASL play because the money isn't there ...

People want this league to be somewhere between NASL and MLS's level of play, not somewhere between USL and NASL's level of play. ... One needs only look at the salaries given to USL players to realize that isn't the case.

Yes, I don't see having USL as an obstacle for another investor to start some other club in the big 3 particularly, Toronto. So yes, I agree Tdot can have its own CANPL team. However ....

You need to realize that TFC2 in CanPL would be alot different than the TFC2 that is in the USL right now. For one thing, the salaries are 40k min, which is alot higher than most USL salaries. That alone would increase the level of play from USl 3rd Division to somewhere around NASL or even higher. 

You also have to take into account the financial backing MLSE has to make TFC2 work. Having a strong TFC2 would only increase their brand and develop their players and coaches. It's beneficial for them to have a strong "reserve" team as it only re-inforces TFC1. 

I think in time the "farm team" label would fall off, especially with investment from MLSE. You can't just discount the biggest Soccer investor in the country. 

[-Hammer-]

1 minute ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

The CSA agreed to MLS expansion into Canada and also signed off on the current domestic player rule arrangements. It wasn't something that was forced on them. Did you read the recent Guardian article?

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/sep/13/mls-canada-american-citizens

“There is some movement with MLS where a Canadian player has an opportunity other than just with three teams,” he says. “It is an opportunity where players who come through the system are going to be considered domestics on both side of the ledger. With a pro league, a lot of the challenges can always be overcome by money.”

That doesn't sound like refusing to budge to me.

It sounds like fluff to me, it's saying "Oh, there is some talk of it, but we haven't really considered it and well...only because this threat came down." also that it has taken over a decade to reach this point.

Montagliani warns that unless a critical issue is addressed – that Canadian players are treated as equal to Americans under MLS rules – Soccer Canada may take sweeping and dramatic action to block Toronto FC, Montreal Impact and Vancouver Whitecaps from continuing to play in the league.

If it's getting to that point, it certainly sounds like they've tried before.

Montagliani says that when Canada Soccer signed off on MLS operating clubs within its jurisdiction (a national federation, as well as the regional confederation, and FIFA must approve cross-border participation in leagues) the intention was for many Canadian players to be on the teams.

“That never came to fruition,” he says. “MLS still hasn’t dealt with the issue of treating Canadian players equal to American players. The truth is that if there was no protection for the American player like there is I bet there would be less American players in MLS. That protectionist attitude has helped the American player. Good on them but it definitely hasn’t helped the Canadian player. MLS has a duty to clubs in both countries. I think they are sincere but I don’t think they wake up in the morning and the first thing they think about is how they can help the Canadian players.”

Doesn't sound like what they signed off on was what was intended at all and that the CSA trusted MLS to do right by them, which they haven't.

But even more revolting is this, which I'm not sure is entirely accurate.

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/weber+rush+revise+domestic+rule/11569154/story.html

It was a decided shift from the league’s repetitive response that U.S. labour laws prevented such a change to their rules — even though Canadians count as domestic players across the USL, two tiers down.

 

 

[-Hammer-]

27 minutes ago, reme90 said:

Yes, I don't see having USL as an obstacle for another investor to start some other club in the big 3 particularly, Toronto. So yes, I agree Tdot can have its own CANPL team. However ....

You need to realize that TFC2 in CanPL would be alot different than the TFC2 that is in the USL right now. For one thing, the salaries are 40k min, which is alot higher than most USL salaries. That alone would increase the level of play from USl 3rd Division to somewhere around NASL or even higher. 

You also have to take into account the financial backing MLSE has to make TFC2 work. Having a strong TFC2 would only increase their brand and develop their players and coaches. It's beneficial for them to have a strong "reserve" team as it only re-inforces TFC1. 

I think in time the "farm team" label would fall off, especially with investment from MLSE. You can't just discount the biggest Soccer investor in the country. 

I don't see how the farm team label ever gets shed. The second a great player outgrows the farm, he's up to TFC and if he's not, why the heck are you running it as a farm team and not an independant entity? How can a fan invest in that sort of thing? You aren't going to see TCF2 attendance dramatically jump with TFC down the road and it effectively makes a team in your new league a giant anchor, in terms of attendance, optics and a constant voice towards not expanding, growing and one day competing directly with MLS.

Maybe far down the road when the league is stable with hardcore established fanbases you can toy with this idea, but not at launch. I also really have to question TFC suddenly wanting to put substantially more cash into their reserve system as it stands right now, given that they don't really need to develop a lot of Canadian talent.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You can rant and rave away about how unfair it all is like Anthony Totera in the youtube clip (does he really think that raising his voice all the time strengthens his argument in some way?), but the reality is that the CSA allowed MLS into Canada and signed off on the current domestic content rules. Unless a way can be found to force the three MLS franchises out of USSF sanctioning and into a CSA sanctioned league, MLS will almost certainly remain the dominant feature on the Canadian pro soccer landscape whether you like it or not. Totera never considers the possibility that there would be a lot more Canadian players in MLS both north and south of the boder, if we were able to produce more players that are as good as Cyle Larin. If we did and had done so consistently over the last few decades, he might still be working with the North York Rockets in a now almost thirty year old Canadian Soccer League because there would have been an entertainment product provided that people actually would have wanted to pay to see, instead of crowds of a few dozen showing up (I know because I was there). Instead, it's one long sense of entitlement whine from somebody who clearly wants to be Canadian soccer's Don Cherry.

[-Hammer-]

4 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

You can rant and rave away about how unfair it all is like Anthony Totera in the youtube clip (does he really think that raising his voice all the time strengthens his argument in some way?), but the reality is that the CSA allowed MLS into Canada and signed off on the current sanctioning rules. Unless a way can be found to force the three MLS franchises out of USSF sanctioning and into a CSA sanctioned league, MLS will almost certainly remain the dominant feature on the Canadian pro soccer landscape whether you like it or not. Totera never considers the possibility that there would be a lot more Canadian players in MLS both north and south of the boder, if we were able to produce more players that are as good as Cyle Larin. If we did and had done consistently over the last few decades, he might still be working with the North York Rockets in a now almost thirty year old Canadian Soccer League because there would have been an entertainment product provided that people would have wanted to pay to see. Instead, it's one long sense of entitlement whine from somebody who clearly wants to be Canadian soccer's Don Cherry.

So you are saying then we need more academy teams to produce the likes of Cyle Larin (who didn't touch the USL, jumping direct from Sigma) which the CanPL is to provide, and not more USL reserve squads. I agree.

Where MLS stands as far as dominance is irrelevant. MLS can run it's own race till the end of days. The point is for every Kyle Larin, you have more then a dozen less qualified US players getting the same money, opportunitiy and minutes he is, and MLS hasn't changed that over a decade, isn't about to change that any time soon, nor should they. They are a US league, their priorities are profit, US development and Canadian development as an afterthought, and mainly only to pay lip service to the nation so it doesn't potentially interfere with the first priority.

Canadians playing good minutes and getting paid well for it produces good players, it's not rocket science. It works everywhere else. Canadians sitting on the bench in MLS or playing poor minutes with little pay in USL produce very little and shows Canadian youth, there isn't opportunity in soccer. Until Canadians have a place to play, and a play where our national teams can have some cohesion (instead of being a mishmash from all over the globe) our national team will suffer.

We need more Pro teams. Pro teams run academies, pro teams give opportunities to play top level minutes, pro teams can pay a good wage for a player to make a career out of the sport. In that we are agreed. Yet somehow, you seem to feel that a reserve league, who will ALWAYS be bellow MLS will somehow fill that gap, or that magically MLS is suddenly going to drop more pro teams in Canada, even though they've stated they aren't interested in doing so.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

There needs to be an entertainment product that people will want to pay to watch. Anthony Totera was involved with a league that didn't even come close to making it financially, because it completely failed to do that. Can understand why there is this seething anger and jealousy about Americans coming in and taking all our jobs from coaches, players and administrators that think they should have them instead as some sort of birthright, but I seriously doubt that many spectators will show up to watch Andrea Lombardo rather than Sebastian Giovinco out of a sense of patriotism and I will be very surprised if these guys can line up blue chip investors in the absence of the three MLS franchises being forced to play in CPL or closed down through having their sanctioning pulled. You can't eat your cake and have it too. Beyond that do you grasp that I would like the idea of the CPL if life was a utopia, but would prefer that the CSA gets on with dealing with reality warts and all, given that it is not?

[Macksam]

4 hours ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

There needs to be an entertainment product that people will want to pay to watch. Anthony Totera was involved with a league that didn't even come close to making it financially, because it completely failed to do that. Can understand why there is this seething anger and jealousy about Americans coming in and taking all our jobs from coaches, players and administrators that think they should have them instead as some sort of birthright, but I seriously doubt that many spectators will show up to watch Andrea Lombardo rather than Sebastian Giovinco out of a sense of patriotism and I will be very surprised if these guys can line up blue chip investors in the absence of the three MLS franchises being forced to play in CPL or closed down through having their sanctioning pulled. You can't eat your cake and have it too. Beyond that do you grasp that I would like the idea of the CPL if life was a utopia, but would prefer that the CSA gets on with dealing with reality warts and all, given that it is not?

What's your professional background? 

Edit: Had a feeling you wouldn't answer.

I think if the CSA and guys like Bob Young feel this can work, that holds a lot more weight than what you have to say.

[matty]

1 hour ago, reme90 said:

You need to realize that TFC2 in CanPL would be alot different than the TFC2 that is in the USL right now. For one thing, the salaries are 40k min, which is alot higher than most USL salaries. That alone would increase the level of play from USl 3rd Division to somewhere around NASL or even higher. 

You also have to take into account the financial backing MLSE has to make TFC2 work. Having a strong TFC2 would only increase their brand and develop their players and coaches. It's beneficial for them to have a strong "reserve" team as it only re-inforces TFC1. 

I think in time the "farm team" label would fall off, especially with investment from MLSE. You can't just discount the biggest Soccer investor in the country. 

Issue 1 - The team is called TFC2. It was founded with the goal and always will have the goal of providing young players (mainly ranging from 17-23) with a place to develop for the main team. No investment will ever get rid of the farm/B team stigma.

Issue 2 - Because the team is a developmental team, it's unlikely they're going to be signing players over 25 unless they're senior team player coming down for fitness or players over 20 from LQO, PLSQ, CIS or even undrafted NCAA. This makes them mostly useless to the league. There is also no guarantee a team of mostly U20 will be able to complete with a more experienced team made of national team level players, decent imports and possible DPs.

Issue 3 - Having a developmental team enter the league could hurt the league's image as a top flight

I'd like to see TFC, the Caps and Impact be friendly with the league and, yes, use it as tool for development by loaning players to it. But the CPL should be as independent from them as it can be.

[-Hammer-]

17 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

There needs to be an entertainment product that people will want to pay to watch. Anthony Totera was involved with a league that didn't even come close to making it financially, because it completely failed to do that. Can understand why there is this seething anger and jealousy about Americans coming in and taking all our jobs from coaches, players and administrators that think they should have them instead as some sort of birthright, but I seriously doubt that many spectators will show up to watch Andrea Lombardo rather than Sebastian Giovinco out of a sense of patriotism and I will be very surprised if these guys can line up blue chip investors in the absence of the three MLS franchises being forced to play in CPL or closed down through having their sanctioning pulled. You can't eat your cake and have it too. Beyond that do you grasp that I would like the idea of the CPL if life was a utopia, but would prefer that the CSA gets on with dealing with reality warts and all, given that it is not?

Hey, make no mistake the CPL isn't going to outdraw MLS any time soon, but if I'm living in Calgary and I'm a Footie fan, would I rather have a local CanPL team or would I rather wait on an MLS team...where the MLS is saying "No, sorry not interested". Would I as a TFC fan on a budget, prefer to buy TFC season seats, or support a local team developing local players that doesn't jack my ticket prices the second I make the playoffs and get immediately eliminated or enters into another period of mismangement and revolving door coaching? Would I as a Fury fan (and as an organization) prefer to stay in the NASL and play the majority of my away games in Florida, or on the occasion take a drive down the road to QC or Hamilton.

Getting 5,000 fans for a league playing at an NASL level is not infeasible. We know it's not, because Ottawa is doing just that. In the long haul the league grows as soccer grows in our country, and the CanPL starts bringing in some higher cost foriegn names. What's absurd is expecting anything more then 3rd rate development and opportunity with leagues who operate like that by design.

[Michael Crampton]

2 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

you seem to think because the USL has a handful of independant clubs that somehow it makes it a fully pro league when the majortity of teams in it are MLS reserve squads are teams affiliated with MLS clubs and are only financially sustainable because the big club pays the bills.

I think paying players to play soccer is what makes a league professional. Opinions may vary.

[Michael Crampton]

You could probably argue that every club in the world, and playing in every league beyond the top four, is a development club for about 10 clubs in 4 leagues.

[-Hammer-]

47 minutes ago, Michael Crampton said:

I think paying players to play soccer is what makes a league professional. Opinions may vary.

This is a fair comment, however a reserve league paying players $2,000 a month (which is close to a poverty wage) on average while technically professional, isn't professional enough to consider it a career option. Maybe as a US player who can later move up because MLS has a swath of US domestic requriements, but not for a Canadian who has 9 slots total available to him.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

You are aware that there are currently over 20 Canadian players in MLS?

[lazlo_80]

I can't even jump into the argument because it seems like it's just cycling over and over the same territories at this point despite none of us really knowing any new facts...but from what Duane Rollins has reported each CPL team would likely be partnered up with a local academy/L1O team for development. For example a team like Hamilton could be partnered with Sigma or the Calgary team with Foothills.

[-Hammer-]

41 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

You are aware that there are currently over 20 Canadian players in MLS?

and the majority of them play as non-domestics. Meaning ample amounts of US players get opportunities because they are domestics, that Canadians simply don't.

[-Hammer-]

22 minutes ago, lazlo_80 said:

I can't even jump into the argument because it seems like it's just cycling over and over the same territories at this point despite none of us really knowing any new facts...but from what Duane Rollins has reported each CPL team would likely be partnered up with a local academy/L1O team for development. For example a team like Hamilton could be partnered with Sigma or the Calgary team with Foothills.

Yeah, it's getting to that point.

[baulderdash77]

1 hour ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

You are aware that there are currently over 20 Canadian players in MLS?

Are you aware that there's only 1 Canadian MLS player  in the US who isn't a permanent resident?

Also has having 20+ Canadian players (which we've for 2 cycles now) helped us progress those in 2 cycles of qualification?

[reme90]

All I want to know is when is Winnipeg Valour FC scheduled to play Real Madrid?

I know Ronaldo needs a lesson in good ol' Canadian tackling.

[matty]

Two of the things I'm curious about is whether CPL clubs will have partnerships with foreign clubs and how MLS clubs will interact with CPL clubs.

Partnerships that see a club from (say) Serie A sending a younger player or two over to gain first team experience in their off-season in exchange for a CPL club sending players over to train with said Serie A club during our off-season could really benefit CPL.

MLS clubs could really benefit from having a league near by that's stronger than USL to send a Mo Babouli to for polishing, similar to what a few club have done with the NASL, or to send a costly depth player to without risking them falling into a rivals hands. However MLS might view CPL as a bigger threat and want to keep loans to a minimum while the CPL may want to avoid being the MLS's unofficial development zone/dumping ground.

What do you all think?

[Complete Homer]

5 hours ago, Michael Crampton said:

Glitch glitch glitch glitch 

 

1 hour ago, matty said:

Two of the things I'm curious about is whether CPL clubs will have partnerships with foreign clubs and how MLS clubs will interact with CPL clubs.

Partnerships that see a club from (say) Serie A sending a younger player or two over to gain first team experience in their off-season in exchange for a CPL club sending players over to train with said Serie A club during our off-season could really benefit CPL.

MLS clubs could really benefit from having a league near by that's stronger than USL to send a Mo Babouli to for polishing, similar to what a few club have done with the NASL, or to send a costly depth player to without risking them falling into a rivals hands. However MLS might view CPL as a bigger threat and want to keep loans to a minimum while the CPL may want to avoid being the MLS's unofficial development zone/dumping ground.

What do you all think?

I don't see us having those kind of partners in the near term, the league needs to demonstrate what level it is before anyone will be interested in sending someone over. 

I think down the line the MLS teams will become amicable to the league. There's loans between them and NASL teams, which are competitors as much as CPL would be, and the individual teams' front offices seem to be fine with a working relationship 

[Ansem]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Premier_League

" In a March 2016 interview, Major League Soccer commissioner Don Garber indicated that, from his understanding, the league would be a "lower division" of the Canadian soccer league system but he had not had discussions with organizers of the new league.^[1]"

Anyone else finds it weird that Garber comments on CPL being a lower league within the Canadian structure made it on Wikipedia page and still being there?

Perhaps MLS being challenged in Canada bothers them more than we think.

With all the negative things said about MLS in Europe and all the quotes out there, it's unlikely those quotes would make it to MLS Wikipedia page...

Just saying

[matty]

3 hours ago, Complete Homer said:

 

I don't see us having those kind of partners in the near term, the league needs to demonstrate what level it is before anyone will be interested in sending someone over. 

I think down the line the MLS teams will become amicable to the league. There's loans between them and NASL teams, which are competitors as much as CPL would be, and the individual teams' front offices seem to be fine with a working relationship 

I agree it's likely to happen 3-5 years after the league starts up before a European partnership starts up. MLS loans would likely happen sooner.

[matty]

1 hour ago, Ansem said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Premier_League

" In a March 2016 interview, Major League Soccer commissioner Don Garber indicated that, from his understanding, the league would be a "lower division" of the Canadian soccer league system but he had not had discussions with organizers of the new league.^[1]"

Anyone else finds it weird that Garber comments on CPL being a lower league within the Canadian structure made it on Wikipedia page and still being there?

Perhaps MLS being challenged in Canada bothers them more than we think.

With all the negative things said about MLS in Europe and all the quotes out there, it's unlikely those quotes would make it to MLS Wikipedia page...

Just saying

They did edit de Guzman's comments last week

MLSsoccer.com: “I still want to be a part of this. I still bleed red,” said de Guzman. “This is my degree right here, Canadian football. I still believe we’re going to major places.”

SportsNet.ca: “I still want to be a part of this,” he said. “I still bleed red. This is my degree right here, Canadian football. And I still believe we’re going to go to major places. We’re going to eventually have our league. That’s going to be something that could definitely help us make a World Cup at some point, and I want to be a part of that.”