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ted

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ted

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Just now, Complete Homer said:

In this setting it would be more about creating a structured pathway from CIS to CPL, rather than a player hoping that he gets noticed without an agent or real coverage. If teams get signing rights, there's at least motivation to send one scout around

OMG no!!!!!! There should be no path from CIS to the CanPL. The CIS and NCAA should be a place to scout late bloomers who for whatever reason fell through the cracks at professional clubs.

If you get to college without having spent time with a pro club then you will be scouted pretty quickly if you are good enough.

 

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Complete Homer Newbie

Complete Homer

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4 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

Not sure if it was mentioned above (I read the vast majority ... some nice work on the potential player pool folks), but mentioned this morning on Soccer Today was that there is a nameless Toronto billionaire involved in the potential Toronto team. Mitch Goldhar? Frank Stronach? I'm not terribly familiar with Toronto billionaires, but it can't be a huge number of people. 

Mom another note, I'm not sure why everyone is so keen to debate the likelihood/merits of the nuclear option (MLS clubs in Canada being unsanctioned). Doesn't it seem much more likely that MLS clubs stay and keep working on their clubs & academies while CanPL does its own thing? To me it does. 

Heck, the ability to loan a few of their down roster players, or top academy players to a CanPL team might actually appeal to the three Canadian MLS teams. 

Link to the podcast? I can't find it 

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zen Newbie

zen

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1 hour ago, matty said:

Yes but I'm more curious about if a MLS team drafts somebody and a CPL team will be able to also draft them to gain first rights to sign said player should the MLS ultimately pass on them or let them go in the near future. 

CPL could conduct a draft for the same players. All the draft does is provide the drafting team with the rights to a players contract should that player choose to play in the league. If the player chooses not to play in the league he is not bound by contract to the league or the team. Also, a team retains the rights of any unsigned, drafted players by placing the player on its College Protected List until the second December 31 following the draft in question, as with Mike Grella who was drafted by TFC but signed for New York after coming back from England.

1 hour ago, ted said:

OMG no!!!!!! There should be no path from CIS to the CanPL. The CIS and NCAA should be a place to scout late bloomers who for whatever reason fell through the cracks at professional clubs.

If you get to college without having spent time with a pro club then you will be scouted pretty quickly if you are good enough.

The academy system is superior, but, I think until the CPL clubs establish their academy systems fully they should have a draft, then 10 years down the road it can be abandoned. A team doesn't have to sign or draft anyone they don't like. 

Since we had no proper scouting/professional system to speak of a lot of players have slipped through the cracks. I played competitively until 2 years ago after playing OSL U21, trust me when I say scouting in this country has been non existent. I'm not going to talk about myself. But I've played with guys that used to play for the Mississauga CSL team, guys that used to make Sigma's defenders look stupid, and guys that Dinamo Zagreb would've liked to sign for their academy but didn't because they didn't have EU passports. There are a lot of players who aren't noticed, and/or have no where to go. I've also played with Gaetano Gesualdi who was on the list of players playing abroad, I've played with his brother who was with Qormi's academy in Malta and with guys like Gill Hong who is playing NCAA soccer for Columbia. A draft and open tryouts during the first few years can be useful to identify players like these who are good enough play professional soccer.

That's been the reality, I'm just suggesting there is a way to give these players a last chance. Like everyone else here I'm not going to debate the merits of a draft system after this, make of my comment what you like.

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Ansem Grand Master

Ansem

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Don't forget Quebec's network of CEGEPS. CPL would make their soccer program even more popular.

For those who don't know, CEGEPs are Quebec's colleges after high school. Quebec is the only province that makes it mandatory to attend college prior to university. So students are usually between 17-21 in average.

http://rseq.ca/sports/soccer/ligues/

Translation:

Quebec CEGEP Division 1 league in the Montreal Region

http://www.sportetudiant-stats.com/collegial/soccer-m-d1/

 

My point is that CPL existence will attract even more players at an earlier age to those programs. I've been to CEGEP and coaches are very competent. This is just for Quebec.

So, I'm not worry about the future of our pool of players. CPL gives those kids a place where they can realistically aim for, thus encouraging them at a much earlier age to perfect their skills by joining a school affiliate to those programs.

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Rheo Contributor

Rheo

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5 minutes ago, Complete Homer said:

I didn't intend my post to be about the virtues of a draft, I was just using a draft as an example of an additional pathway that could supply a small number of players for the overall pool. I'm happy to concede that point to avoid ten pages of debate about drafts 

But that's where it all begins until it's the hurricane of purists and realists overwhelms the board lol

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-Hammer- Enthusiast

-Hammer-

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5 hours ago, Ansem said:

We have to remember that FIFA could at anytime severely sanction MLS for going to court. In the grand scheme of things, FIFA executives wouldn't lose sleep over MLS and FIFA most likely already siding with the CSA on the matter.

1-According to FIFA rules, the CSA has 100% the right to evict the 3 MLS teams from Canada. MLS challenging that in court is a direct challenge against FIFA, not only the CSA. FIFA could easily sanction both the USSF and MLS for dragging this into courts.

2-However, the big question is: does the CSA have the power to drag those 3 teams in CPL by force? Against the owner's and MLS will, I don't think so and that would perhaps start a legal battle, but even then, in every scenarios, FIFA holds all the cards.

Like I keep repeating, Victor would have never picked the Guardian to make such a threat against the MLS if he hadn't done his homework.

To the first point

You are correct, the question is, is how much muscle is FIFA willing to flex for Canada and it's bylaws in the face of the much more lucrative US market and league. Given how unwilling most courts are to touch sports cases, I suspect this would be a long, drawn out battle with stops in arbitration and the like.

To the second point

They don't have the power to force a team to play anywhere. They can only say "If you are going to play, and be part of the FIFA system, then if you are in Canada you go through us and abide by our rules." If a team got evicted from MLS, there is nothing stopping those teams from making their own unsanctioned league (CSL style) or selling their franchises/player contracts to other MLS markets for a relocation fee.

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ironcub14 Newbie

ironcub14

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On 2016-09-16 at 5:14 PM, lazlo_80 said:

Ironcub, love the debate here. Let me ask you this...

Suppose the CPL launched with a national TV contract and a shared revenue plan to take care of travel expenses and such (as is being rumored). Would that not already provide more to these potential teams than the USL or NASL ever could?

To that point, if after 5 years there were only 6 viable teams, you could argue that those 6 viable teams probably had a better shot launching under this structure anyways, and if they end up getting absorbed into the USL or NASL in the end, you essentially end up with the same end result.

My point is, I would argue it's far harder to have 6-8 individual ownership groups try to launch separate teams from each other in the USL or NASL without the business plan and strengths of all launching together under one more cohesive strategy. Yes, there is definitely the potential for failure in launching an entire league, but to launch 6-8 teams by 2018 in USL/NASL without any real support whatsoever seems far riskier to me.

 

Very much enjoying the debate as well, and cheers to you and Homer and Rob for at least considering what were some pretty long-winded posts from me last week, regarding the USL expansion route. I completely get what you guys said, that striking while the iron is hot with respect to a CPL launch may be the smartest way to go, and that there is, hopefully, no need for too much pessimism with respect to CPL as a whole, and that sharing the risk together as a league may be the safer way to go. I completely see what you guys are getting at, although I'm just slightly more pessimistic than you guys are on the 3 statements. But I obviously hope as a CanMNT/CPL supporter that I can be proved wrong on all 3 counts.

Just one quick reply for you on your comment. Agree on most of everything you said. Here's my one quick point: while launching 6-8 teams by 2020 in USL without any real support is most definitely the "riskier" approach, it is riskier, for that each and individual club alone. We would not be risking an entire league yet, with this approach. And I would certainly hope that expansion USL clubs in the potential CPL cities would find enough success on its own, propelled by the very Voyageurs on this thread.

Despite the optimistic mood that obviously should exist in this thread, considering it's the V's CPL thread and all, can we acknowledge that there is very much indeed a chance that the CPL, despite our best support and intentions, could possibly fail within those first 7 years, simply because 1 or 2 clubs could not keep up with the rest of the league financially? And while the rest of the clubs could be easily absorbed into NASL or USL, we would once again be without a CPL for the foreseeable future.

That's all I'm saying. As a CPL supporter, I'm just really risk-averse to launching and risking the existence of a CPL when we currently do not have professional footy clubs in non-MLS/non-NASL cities. If we had NASL and USL clubs established and thriving in 10+ Canadian cities by now, I would be the first one to bombard the forums with a demand for a CPL breakaway.

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BrennanFan Rising Star

BrennanFan

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13 minutes ago, matty said:

Toronto billionaire...Mitchell Goldhar?

Didn't take long for this forum to come up with that name, did it?  

For those that don't know, Mr. Goldhar is a legit Canadian Billionaire and owner of basically every mall in Canada that has a Walmart attached to it (SmartCentres).  Further, he is the current owner of Maccabi Tel Aviv.  

He is exactly the kind of owner the Toronto CPL team needs.  And exactly the kind of owner that would make MLSE and TFC extremely nervous, and force them to reach out to the CSA. 

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ironcub14 Newbie

ironcub14

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3 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Didn't take long for this forum to come up with that name, did it?  

For those that don't know, Mr. Goldhar is a legit Canadian Billionaire and owner of basically every mall in Canada that has a Walmart attached to it (SmartCentres).  Further, he is the current owner of Maccabi Tel Aviv.  

He is exactly the kind of owner the Toronto CPL team needs.  And exactly the kind of owner that would make MLSE and TFC extremely nervous, and force them to reach out to the CSA. 

That said, I was going to try to be a little bit more optimistic, and ask about some potential ideas and things to consider for a possible Toronto CPL club, and this here is an awesome thing to hear. I never knew that connection, but a North-York based billionaire who is the current owner of Maccabi Tel Aviv sounds pretty sick to me.

I've argued a number of times for TFC II and the other MLS reserve sides in the CPL, due mainly to sporting reasons, as they contribute well to CanM23 and CanM20 at the moment, and from my admiration of the Spanish player development model and the presence of a number of B clubs in the Spanish pyramid, but I know those of us arguing for the USL reserve sides in the CPL is in the minority among CPL supporters and that's completely fair for a number of reasons.

With that said, independent CPL clubs in the big 3 markets, or at least in Toronto, sounds pretty essential to me for the viability of CPL, and I was very much wondering if there would be potential ownership groups out there willing to take MLSE head-on, and if the demand would be there to attend Toronto CPL matches.

To me, an independent Toronto CPL club would have a greater chance of succeeding and finding demand and higher attendance if they put the club somewhere near downtown accessible easily by TTC and GO. I honestly feel like putting it in one of the burbs like Mississauga, Brampton or Vaughan would be a losing proposition from Day 1, primarily because you want to make it accessible to Voyageurs and mainstreams all across the GTA, rather than just the western suburbs. I found the Vaughan location, and the crummy metal stands at Ontario Soccer Centre, to be the primary barriers for attendance for many Voyageurs for TFC II, for example.

I think that a pretty high % of GTA-based Voyageurs live in or close to downtown, and these are the supporters you need the most to provide that lively atmosphere at CPL matches. I would also assume that a high % of suburban-based V's are already used to making the trek downtown for TFC and CanMNT matches. And I can clearly see the sentiment from various TFC supporters who are tired of dealing with MLSE and would gladly welcome a Toronto CPL side.

I posted something similar on the V's FB group as well, and people seemed to like Varsity Stadium as an option. I've only been there to play soccer, so I don't know too much about it, but it sounds like a pretty great option, with the former Metros-Croatia/Lynx history there, the subway station right across the stadium, and what looked like a pretty decent capacity and atmosphere in the UT neighbourhood.

At least we have a name to pin our hopes on now, I guess :) If we were FC Barcelona supporters, we should gladly accommodate FC Barcelona B in our football pyramid, in my opinion. But the chance to support a RCD Espanyol against the cash-hungry Barca side is a pretty tantalizing prospect indeed.

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ironcub14 Newbie

ironcub14

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If that last post was TLDR, I'm just saying they should put a Toronto CPL side downtown Toronto rather than one of the burbs. Makes it far more easier to go for all the V's around the GTA. That'd be sick, I'd get season tix for that club.

And this was a fun article on Goldhar: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/chelsea-vs-maccabi-tel-aviv-blues-face-aspiring-club-thanks-to-former-manchester-united-winger-jordi-10502269.html

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BrennanFan Rising Star

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21 minutes ago, ironcub14 said:

If that last post was TLDR, I'm just saying they should put a Toronto CPL side downtown Toronto rather than one of the burbs. Makes it far more easier to go for all the V's around the GTA. That'd be sick, I'd get season tix for that club.

And this was a fun article on Goldhar: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/chelsea-vs-maccabi-tel-aviv-blues-face-aspiring-club-thanks-to-former-manchester-united-winger-jordi-10502269.html

Varsity would be the best possible location.  At one time, there were big plans for Varsity Stadium, but U of T bailed and went with a bare bones, but really nice 5000 seat venue.  

If only the CPL and the CSA could somehow revive the original Varsity Expansion plan

 

VarSta.jpg

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Complete Homer Newbie

Complete Homer

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21 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Didn't take long for this forum to come up with that name, did it?  

For those that don't know, Mr. Goldhar is a legit Canadian Billionaire and owner of basically every mall in Canada that has a Walmart attached to it (SmartCentres).  Further, he is the current owner of Maccabi Tel Aviv.  

He is exactly the kind of owner the Toronto CPL team needs.  And exactly the kind of owner that would make MLSE and TFC extremely nervous, and force them to reach out to the CSA. 

You've demonstrated some sort of connection with the CSA before and seem to like to drop hints. Anything you can tell us, or are you just spit balling?

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ironcub14 Newbie

ironcub14

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4 minutes ago, BrennanFan said:

Varsity would be the best possible location.  At one time, there were big plans for Varsity Stadium, but U of T bailed and went with a bare bones, but really nice 5000 seat venue.  

If only the CPL and the CSA could somehow revive the original Varsity Expansion plan

 

VarSta.jpg

Completely agreed! I posted something earlier on the V's FB group on the topic, and people seemed to like Varsity Stadium as the primary option. I've been there only to play soccer a few times, so I don't know too much about it, but it sounds like a pretty great option, with the former Metros-Croatia/Lynx history there, the subway station right across the stadium, and what looked like a pretty decent capacity and atmosphere in the UT neighbourhood.

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matty Newbie

matty

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Ownership Rumours
Hamilton: Bob Young - NW: Several Hundred Million plus owns the Ti-Cats (seems like a lock)
Toronto: Billionaire owner
Ottawa: If it's the Fury they're owned by OSEG which also runs the RedBlacks and 67s (seems like a lock)
Regina: Suspect to be the Roughriders but it's been hinted that it could be an outsider
Calgary: heavy hints at Calgary Sports and Entertainment which owns the Flames, Roughnecks, Hitmen and Stampeders. Chairman N Murray Edwards has a NW of $2.2 billion
Edmonton: If the Eddies and the Faths come with likely but could they sell to the Eskimos
Quebec: Some have said the Molsons but no real evidence
Winnipeg:  TNSE, owned by the richest family in Canada
Other teams: Nothing heavy but implied NHL or CFL links.

Just looking at the three Ontario teams and Calgary, this league is likely going to have a lot of money behind it. Anything less than a $1.5m cap and DPs will seriously be a disappointment

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