Canadian Premier League

[ironcub14]

On 2016-09-10 at 6:21 PM, Kent said:

For the people suggesting to build up clubs in USL and then move them to CPL later in order to reduce risk, I don't see how that reduces risk. In that scenario you take a risk when creating the club in USL, then you later risk a successful club to move to the CPL. Right now nobody thinks MLS teams would join the CPL, but somehow we are to believe that successful teams in the future will leave their stable league for a brand new unknown league?

No doubt, you are taking a risk when you create a club in USL; I think creating any business from scratch, really, involves varying amounts of risk. But can we agree that, any expansion USL clubs in Canada, that their success depends on that ownership group and that alone? Whereas the 8 CPL clubs would be dependent on each other in terms of the financial success not only of the club, but the league as a whole. That certainly involves more risk, when you have 8 ownership groups dependent on each other, as opposed to one.

When CPL kicks off in 2018, and we find that a couple clubs were having severe attendance difficulties the first five years, for whatever reasons that could come up, let's say that a couple of the ownership groups deemed it unworthy to continue and wanted to throw their towel in with respect to their investment in a CPL. I’m sure CPL as a whole and the other ownership groups would support the distressed clubs, with whatever may needed be, but we would be talking about a league that suddenly has only 6 stable clubs, in a country as geographically large as Canada. To me, this plausible situation would put the league as a whole in a pretty rocky situation, and could easily lead to a domino effect within the league.

As for asking a number of successful clubs to move to the CPL, I don’t think that’s very hard to do with the right financial incentives for the ownership groups. You’re asking for a move from USL to CPL, and if they are at about equal levels, it’s not a big ask, especially in the lower leagues, where you have league movement all the time. And if the USL clubs did not come together to create a CPL, it’s quite okay, because we’ve just grown pro soccer culture throughout Canada, and hopefully established professional academies to support these USL clubs, and CanMNT will be benefiting from a far greater pool of professionally trained players throughout the country. It’s really not that big of a risk, this USL approach.

I say this as someone who very much would like to see a CPL a reality and thriving 15-20 years down the road. My argument for the USL approach basically is this: with respect to the non-MLS/NASL Canadian cities, let each individual city find its rich ownership group willing to grow pro soccer in that city for the next 10-15 years, which the CSA seems to have already mostly found, and let each club, hypothetically in the USL, find success or failure on its own accord, its own marketing, and its own stadium.

I think it is incredibly essential that a CPL exists in a thriving manner by 2030. In fact, I believe the existence of a CPL by 2030 is so crucial, that I think it is too risky for us to collectively pool 8 non-MLS/NASL Canadian cities right now, as of 2018, and see if they can grow pro soccer together, or fail together, in the 5 years following a 2018 launch as an 8-team collective league.

And yes, I remember MLS contracted Miami and Tampa Bay in 2002; it was a near death-knell for the league, if not for the will of 2 investment groups and the creation of SUM. And they still had 10 clubs left, which was still good enough to compose a league.

Instead of risking our entire CPL over the next 5 years, let each non-MLS/NASL Canadian city find its way first in USL. If you fail, you fail, but at least you did not bring down CPL with you. I promise you, I write all this because I do very much consider CPL the holy grail.

[Complete Homer]

^I do see your points, and I think they are valid, but I worry about marrying a USSF D3 (potentially D2 soon) league in the hopes that we can successfully divorce it a decade or two later to create our own system. 

The chance that CPL fails certainly exists, but it seems like we have reached a critical point where the will actually exists to create it. Entering USL now might mean the ownership groups will end up like MLSE et al down the line, simply uninterested. Even if CPL appeared to be a better option, it is hard convincing a group to leave something they have invested in, marketed, and probably sunk an expansion fee into. 

I think we both recognize that an independent CPL is the best scenario, and personally, I think striking while the iron is hot gives us the best chance. I do, however, respect that you've made a reasoned argument as to why a slow buildup may be the way to go. I don't see it that way, but it is not an unreasonable position 

[matty]

Off the current topic somewhat but what type of teams do you guys see the CPL bringing over for friendlies? With the amount of money going into this I think it's safe to assume they're going to arrange them. I'm thinking they try to get smaller teams from EPL, Serie A and Bundesliga over here. What do you think? 

[rob.notenboom]

1 minute ago, matty said:

Off the current topic somewhat but what type of teams do you guys see the CPL bringing over for friendlies? With the amount of money going into this I think it's safe to assume they're going to arrange them. I'm thinking they try to get smaller teams from EPL, Serie A and Bundesliga over here. What do you think? 

That's a good question as I've become fairly convinced that this is going to happen. Sooner or later there will be some 'pre-season EPL tournament' or some such as there has been a strong suggestion that the league will use these types of events (as well as selling television rights for soccer events etc) as part of their plan to increase revenue. A pre-season tourney with four teams - a La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, and EPL team? I could completely see it.

[rob.notenboom]

As for some of the particular wishes for people as to the format/philosophy of the league, I would love to see 30 or 40 community teams that could survive on their own and where we could have a little pro/rel. In fact, in moments when I've let my mind drift off, I've thought about how cool that would be. Additionally, Namu's USL points are well taken (although I'm not nearly as convinced that the league needs to mitigate risk to such an extent that forming USL teams is necessary). However, if all of the reports are to be believed, and thankfully there's a little more meat now than there was 2 weeks ago so we can stave off the 'it's all someone's unilateral wet dream' argument, it look very much like neither pro/rel nor USL teams is a reality.

For me, a much more pressing concern is supporting the league while trying to influence its direction in the ways that we can. So I think people on this forum and elsewhere need to be prepared (clearly the Hamilton folks are way ahead of the curve on this, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us can't catch up in short order). When teams are announced, get ready to pledge your support whether that be by forming or joining a supporters group, inquiring about season tickets, inquiring about merch, discussing teams on social media, twisting your friends' arms to join you in it all. And if and when teams start to forget why they are doing this, or disrespect supporters or what have you, it will be time to make ourselves heard too.

[Gopherbashi]

11 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

For me, a much more pressing concern is supporting the league while trying to influence its direction in the ways that we can. So I think people on this forum and elsewhere need to be prepared (clearly the Hamilton folks are way ahead of the curve on this, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us can't catch up in short order). When teams are announced, get ready to pledge your support whether that be by forming or joining a supporters group, inquiring about season tickets, inquiring about merch, discussing teams on social media, twisting your friends' arms to join you in it all. And if and when teams start to forget why they are doing this, or disrespect supporters or what have you, it will be time to make ourselves heard too.

There's just so much uncertainty about which suburb of Toronto I have to support!

[rob.notenboom]

4 minutes ago, Gopherbashi said:

There's just so much uncertainty about which suburb of Toronto I have to support!

Ha! It will be a tough choice. With teams slated for Oakville, Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughn, North York, Markham, and Scarborough you will have some serious choice. Or you could be a real soccer hipster and become a Hamilton supporter.

[lazlo_80]

2 hours ago, ironcub14 said:

No doubt, you are taking a risk when you create a club in USL; I think creating any business from scratch, really, involves varying amounts of risk. But can we agree that, any expansion USL clubs in Canada, that their success depends on that ownership group and that alone? Whereas the 8 CPL clubs would be dependent on each other in terms of the financial success not only of the club, but the league as a whole. That certainly involves more risk, when you have 8 ownership groups dependent on each other, as opposed to one.

When CPL kicks off in 2018, and we find that a couple clubs were having severe attendance difficulties the first five years, for whatever reasons that could come up, let's say that a couple of the ownership groups deemed it unworthy to continue and wanted to throw their towel in with respect to their investment in a CPL. I’m sure CPL as a whole and the other ownership groups would support the distressed clubs, with whatever may needed be, but we would be talking about a league that suddenly has only 6 stable clubs, in a country as geographically large as Canada. To me, this plausible situation would put the league as a whole in a pretty rocky situation, and could easily lead to a domino effect within the league.

As for asking a number of successful clubs to move to the CPL, I don’t think that’s very hard to do with the right financial incentives for the ownership groups. You’re asking for a move from USL to CPL, and if they are at about equal levels, it’s not a big ask, especially in the lower leagues, where you have league movement all the time. And if the USL clubs did not come together to create a CPL, it’s quite okay, because we’ve just grown pro soccer culture throughout Canada, and hopefully established professional academies to support these USL clubs, and CanMNT will be benefiting from a far greater pool of professionally trained players throughout the country. It’s really not that big of a risk, this USL approach.

I say this as someone who very much would like to see a CPL a reality and thriving 15-20 years down the road. My argument for the USL approach basically is this: with respect to the non-MLS/NASL Canadian cities, let each individual city find its rich ownership group willing to grow pro soccer in that city for the next 10-15 years, which the CSA seems to have already mostly found, and let each club, hypothetically in the USL, find success or failure on its own accord, its own marketing, and its own stadium.

I think it is incredibly essential that a CPL exists in a thriving manner by 2030. In fact, I believe the existence of a CPL by 2030 is so crucial, that I think it is too risky for us to collectively pool 8 non-MLS/NASL Canadian cities right now, as of 2018, and see if they can grow pro soccer together, or fail together, in the 5 years following a 2018 launch as an 8-team collective league.

And yes, I remember MLS contracted Miami and Tampa Bay in 2002; it was a near death-knell for the league, if not for the will of 2 investment groups and the creation of SUM. And they still had 10 clubs left, which was still good enough to compose a league.

Instead of risking our entire CPL over the next 5 years, let each non-MLS/NASL Canadian city find its way first in USL. If you fail, you fail, but at least you did not bring down CPL with you. I promise you, I write all this because I do very much consider CPL the holy grail.

Ironcub, love the debate here. Let me ask you this...

Suppose the CPL launched with a national TV contract and a shared revenue plan to take care of travel expenses and such (as is being rumored). Would that not already provide more to these potential teams than the USL or NASL ever could?

To that point, if after 5 years there were only 6 viable teams, you could argue that those 6 viable teams probably had a better shot launching under this structure anyways, and if they end up getting absorbed into the USL or NASL in the end, you essentially end up with the same end result.

My point is, I would argue it's far harder to have 6-8 individual ownership groups try to launch separate teams from each other in the USL or NASL without the business plan and strengths of all launching together under one more cohesive strategy. Yes, there is definitely the potential for failure in launching an entire league, but to launch 6-8 teams by 2018 in USL/NASL without any real support whatsoever seems far riskier to me.

 

[Gopherbashi]

11 minutes ago, rob.notenboom said:

Ha! It will be a tough choice. With teams slated for Oakville, Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughn, North York, Markham, and Scarborough you will have some serious choice. Or you could be a real soccer hipster and become a Hamilton supporter.

I don't know whether to get "Scarborough City Soccer Club for life" tattooed on my face, or whether I should make "SCSC = sissies" banners!

[Complete Homer]

^Footsoldier stated that the Foothills supporters group would take up the mantel for a Calgary team. Who else could be counted on? 

This is easy for me to say, as someone from a market where someone else has already done a huge amount of legwork, but if anyone is willing to step up from the other markets, there's no better time than now. Start a thread, arrange a meeting with as many other Vees in your city as you can, and hammer out basics like a group name and leadership. Worst comes to worst and there is no team in your market announced at year's end (Rollins said to expect market announcements end of 2016/beginning 2017), at least you know you would have hit the ground running. People are in the mood for change, take advantage and get ready to ride the wave of mainstream hype that could accompany an official announcement. 

Maybe Maurader is willing to chime in with some tips, it's not like I've done anything to contribute besides drinking beer at the BB events. 

Edit: took too long typing that, it made sense in response to Rob's comment, not what followed

[matty]

1 hour ago, rob.notenboom said:

That's a good question as I've become fairly convinced that this is going to happen. Sooner or later there will be some 'pre-season EPL tournament' or some such as there has been a strong suggestion that the league will use these types of events (as well as selling television rights for soccer events etc) as part of their plan to increase revenue. A pre-season tourney with four teams - a La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, and EPL team? I could completely see it.

I personally could see four clubs coming over to each play a pair of CPL clubs but a cross country tourney like the International Champions Cup could be a bigger draw 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

This might be a shot in the dark, but I wonder if anyone has ever considered Anchorage, Alaska as a possible location for a team.  Yes, I am aware they are not Canadian, but I've always personally felt like we have more in common with them than the continental US does.  There are upwards of 300,000 people in Anchorage, no professional sports teams whatsoever, and the travel distance, although fairly substantial, isn't any more than most NASL teams are doing on a regular basis.  It would open up the possibility of attracting American viewers who are hoping to see their northern compatriots spoil our Canada Party.

Like I said, Probably a shot in the dark, but who knows.

Hell, I'd almost consider supporting them as they're more like the yukon than anywhere that'd feasibly have a team.

I don't know if there are hurdles that the CSA would have to jump, but you have to imagine US soccer would view it as a net positive.  Geographically, we're the best shot of anything happening there.

 

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

2 hours ago, matty said:

Off the current topic somewhat but what type of teams do you guys see the CPL bringing over for friendlies? With the amount of money going into this I think it's safe to assume they're going to arrange them. I'm thinking they try to get smaller teams from EPL, Serie A and Bundesliga over here. What do you think? 

Seems reasonable.  Maybe some championship sides or some lower/mid table ligue 1 etc.  Teams that soccer fans will have heard of but may not be household names to sports fans in general(although I imagine they'll occasionally break the bank for a club like that if they get a reasonable offer) Arsenal seems insanely popular in Canada for some reason(maybe the red and white? :P) I could see them trying to nab them for a preseason friendly right off the hop.

But overall, yea, slightly lower, but still respectable clubs if they can.

[GuillermoDelQuarto]

1 hour ago, Complete Homer said:

Start a thread, arrange a meeting with as many other Vees in your city as you can, and hammer out basics like a group name and leadership.

I'm literally sitting around waiting for people to PM me their ideas for supporters group names/logos

like a bump on a fucking log.

[Complete Homer]

32 minutes ago, GuillermoDelQuarto said:

I'm literally sitting around waiting for people to PM me their ideas for supporters group names/logos

like a bump on a fucking log.

<3

[Complete Homer]

I got you bbg

Edit: But seriously, in the event that the franchises fail to recognize your evident artistic genius, offering the logos to supporters groups can work in some situations, if it fits. Personally, the Winnipeg Valour sounds like a pretty fucking kickass supporters group

[-Hammer-]

11 hours ago, reme90 said:

Then have their USL teams play in the CanPL, its a win win for everyone. the CanPL gets more teams and in big markets. The MLS teams get meaningful minutes for their USL clubs and there is no interference with either.

Exxcept the CanPL needs to stand alone and be Canada's league, not MLS's farm league. The very presence of any of the 2nd teams poisons the marketability of product. Also, the implication is that the CanPL will start around the NASL salary/level. The quality of play isn't going to be extremely high, no sense in diluting it further by having three teams that will constantly be stripped of their best players on paper, the rare times they do get the call. Nevermind the USL teams likely won't want to join the CanPL depending on what the salary floor is going to be.

[reme90]

9 hours ago, -Hammer- said:

Exxcept the CanPL needs to stand alone and be Canada's league, not MLS's farm league. The very presence of any of the 2nd teams poisons the marketability of product. Also, the implication is that the CanPL will start around the NASL salary/level. The quality of play isn't going to be extremely high, no sense in diluting it further by having three teams that will constantly be stripped of their best players on paper, the rare times they do get the call. Nevermind the USL teams likely won't want to join the CanPL depending on what the salary floor is going to be.

Agree completely.  It's a legitimate concern.

What would cause more damage to the league, Not being in the top 3 markets? Or having USL in the league?

I think to start off,  having USL will not be that bad. Most of the teams will be weak in talent and it also gives TFC etc a chance to invest more money into the marketplace. 

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

That's what makes sense, but it is unpalatable to people in Hamilton on the one hand (they want something like Argos vs Ticats rather being at the equivalent of AHL level), and to CSA types on the other, who prefer to talk up the domestic player rule issue to admitting that a very large part of the reason that there are so few Canadian players in MLS is that player development in Canada started to lag well behind what was happening in the United States from about the mid-90s onwards when large suburban youth clubs started to eclipse ethnic clubs at that level of the sport.

The collapse of semi-pro leagues like the old NSL in Toronto that used to bring experienced pro level players over from Europe for top local players to play alongside was a major problem because it disrupted what had been a relatively successful player development pathway when compared to what was happening in the United States. In the 1970s this foundation level in the sport driven by the post-WW2 immigration wave from Europe helped CMNT players to dominate the domestic roster spots in the original NASL with Iarusci at the Cosmos etc.

From the mid-90s onwards after leagues like the NSL and the original CSL had collapsed and been replaced by glorified amateur leagues like the CPSL, we didn't have anything truly comparable to NCAA sports scholarships to keep players in the sport in the late teens once youth soccer stops as a stepping stone to pro level, because there was a major disconnect between the elite youth club and senior amateur and semi-pro levels of the sport. MLS is now helping to put a better development pathway in place again, but that sticks in the CSA's craw, because they have been very much sidelined in elite player development by the three MLS academies in a manner that wasn't part of the deal back in 2007.

[-Hammer-]

42 minutes ago, reme90 said:

Agree completely.  It's a legitimate concern.

What would cause more damage to the league, Not being in the top 3 markets? Or having USL in the league?

I think to start off,  having USL will not be that bad. Most of the teams will be weak in talent and it also gives TFC etc a chance to invest more money into the marketplace. 

In my eyes, having the USL farms in the league, because as I stated earlier I can fully see a GTA CanPL team working in Toronto (espcially if TFC goes back to having years like it did two years previous.) so there is little need to court that USL team. As far as the other two, you are going up against the MLS teams with other issues in that market, placing teams in those markets right away can wait. Besides, I have severe doubts that suddenly you are going to see a wellspring of support for those three franchises because they jumped to the CanPL and their lower attendances is going to drag down the image of the league even further. More importantly, it sends the message that the level of play will begin as equal to the USL if they are allowed in, which is sabatoging the league from day one.

Lets not kid ourselves, the USL squads draw exceptionally poorly in this country because #1 they are farms, #2 the level they tend to play at is lower then even NASL play because the money isn't there #3 why on earth would I watch the farm when I could watch the big league down the road? The only reason is cost or ticket availability and neither are really at that stage with MLS.

People want this league to be somewhere between NASL and MLS's level of play, not somewhere between USL and NASL's level of play. Some people seem to think because one year the USL had a good run at the Lamar Hunt, that some independant USL teams draw well (while the majority are abyssmal) and that they want division 2 sanctioning as proof posistive that the USL is clearly on par, which isn't the case. One needs only look at the salaries given to USL players to realize that isn't the case.

[-Hammer-]

40 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

That's what makes sense, but it is unpalatable to people in Hamilton on the one hand (they want something like Argos vs Ticats rather being at the equivalent of AHL level), and to CSA types on the other, who prefer to talk up the domestic player rule issue to admitting that a very large part of the reason that there are so few Canadian players in MLS is that player development in Canada started to lag well behind what was happening in the United States from about the mid-90s onwards when large suburban youth clubs started to eclipse ethnic clubs at that level of the sport.

The collapse of semi-pro leagues like the old NSL in Toronto that used to bring experienced pro level players over from Europe for top local players to play alongside was a major problem. Iin the 1970s this foundation level in the sport helped CMNT players to dominate the domestic roster spots in the original NASL with Iarusci at the Cosmos etc.

From the mid-90s onwards after leagues like the NSL and the original CSL had collapsed and been replaced by glorified amateur leagues like the CPSL, we didn't have anything truly comparable to NCAA sports scholarships to keep players in the sport in the late teens once youth soccer stops as a stepping stone to pro level, because there was a major disconnect between the elite youth club and senior amateur and semi-pro levels of the sport. MLS is now helping to put a better development pathway in place again, but that sticks in the CSA's craw, because they have been very much sidelined in elite player development by the three MLS academies in a manner that wasn't part of the deal back in 2007.

There is nothing to say that the CanPL won't eventually develop it's own reserve league system (which so long as Canadian content is protected, and CSA desires are protected can certainly tie itself to the USL). Beisdes a lot of the elite Canadian prospects like Larin, Osorio and Akindele aren't spending swaths of time in the reserve league like Hamilton or Babouli (who incidentally many say should be permanent fixtures in MLS but can't get MLS minutes because of the lack of Canadian requirements there).

They are jumping almost immediately into MLS, which to me screams for a need for more youth academy teams like TFC Academy, like Sigma and like what has been implied the CanPL will offer for each of it's teams, and more truly pro opportunities. Not an exapansion of the reserve system.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Do you think that I am arguing that having more Canadian pro teams is a bad thing? The CSA do not have the money to finance this themselves. The key issue in all of this is that somebody has to pay for what you and they appear to want. If it looked like a good investment and people were lining up to compete for the franchise rights to the three major media markets, CPL wouldn't perpetually be two years away. If the investors are not there then chasing this fantasy should not be allowed to stall the progress of the sport in Canada indefinitely, because we do need more pro teams.

[-Hammer-]

5 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

Do you think that I am arguing that having more Canadian pro teams is a bad thing? The CSA do not have the money to finance this themselves. The key issue in all of this is that somebody has to pay for what you and they appear to want. If it looked like a good investment and people were lining up to compete for the franchise rights to the three major media markets, CPL wouldn't perpetually be two years away. If the investors are not there then chasing this fantasy should not be allowed to stall the progress of the sport in Canada indefinitely, because we do need more pro teams.

Not at all, but you seem to think because the USL has a handful of independant clubs that somehow it makes it a fully pro league when the majortity of teams in it are MLS reserve squads are teams affiliated with MLS clubs and are only financially sustainable because the big club pays the bills. You also seem to think that despite USL having it's own cap and floor, and that it's pathetically poor salary (which is understadable because it is a reserve league) is going to make soccer a more viabale career in this country.

We need more players playing at the level of the MLS or close to it. The USL by design will never play at the level of the MLS by design, and given how many players bypass the USL entirely, it's doubtful it will ever be close to it. This is all apart from the extensive arguements made about further binding ourselves the USSF and their whims and desires, with our program being left with very few means of enforcing Canadian quotas.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

If the CSA wants a CPL, I strongly suspect that the three MLS teams would need to be brought back into the CSA fold and participate in it, so the major media markets are present and can be used to subsidize what happens in the smaller cities through revenue sharing given FC Edmonton level paid attendance could easily happen. The idea that teams can compete in competition with them in the three major markets looks like a pipe dream to me. Toronto Nationals and Inter Montreal may have been over 30 years ago now, but I suspect things would follow a similar trajectory, if anybody tried it. If, as seems exceedingly likely, the mighty Vic Montagliani won't be able to force the MLS teams back, the CSA needs to get real and start working with MLS rather than at cross-purposes with it. If USL is where things are currently at in terms of having a stable lower tier, then that's where things are at.

[-Hammer-]

12 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

If the CSA wants a CPL, I strongly suspect that the three MLS teams would need to be brought back into the CSA fold and participate in it, so the major media markets are present and can be used to subsidize what happens in the smaller cities through revenue sharing given FC Edmonton level paid attendance could easily happen. The idea that teams can compete in competition with them in the three major markets looks like a pipe dream to me. Toronto Nationals and Inter Montreal may have been over 30 years ago now, but I suspect things would follow a similar trajectory, if anybody tried it. If, as seems exceedingly likely, the mighty Vic Montagliani won't be able to force the MLS teams back, the CSA needs to get real and start working with MLS rather than at cross-purposes with it. If USL is where things are currently at in terms of having a stable lower tier, then that's where things are at.

So you say in two posts "We need more pro teams" and then say "But we need to get really and start working more with a league that has stated outright they have no further intrest in giving Canada any more pro teams." The same league that despite us requesting more Canadians be present in it's top tier several times, and that Canadians be treated as domestics several times has refused to budge on this matter.