Canadian Premier League

[Ansem]

10 minutes ago, michaeltfc91 said:

 

As much as I absolutely love Toronto FC, I am a Canadian soccer fan first and foremost. But honest question, let's say Victor "forces" the 3 MLS teams into the CPL, will this actually benefit Canadian soccer?

We have 3 MLS teams each averaging over 20,000 fans per game that are actually playing and developing a good amount of Canadian players (about 8-12 Canadians usually involved per week total). The problem with MLS is that there are only 2 Canadians playing on American teams which is not good, but the Canadian teams are doing their part.

CPL can do just fine with 8-10 Canadian markets on top of the 3 MLS teams, I think this will be best case scenario. A Hamilton and 2nd team in Toronto can and should still be able to draw about 8,000 fans let's say if the league is competitive enough. There is no issue if the CPL is a quality second division league that helps produce young players, while also employing fringe MNT veterans Straith, Haber, Jakovic, Hainault etc.

But CPL wants to be 1st Division in Canada. 2 Division 1 coexisting in the same country would be a first I think. Also, from CPL investors point of view, they want a return on their investment, having sole control over the 3 biggest media markets in Canada reduced the level of risk on their investment

So I'm guessing that the CSA is trying their best to balance everyone's expectations. I wouldn't want to be in their place.

[Ansem]

14 minutes ago, zeelaw1555362314 said:

OMG, could you imagine. Lawsuits out of the ass.

They could sue for compensations but they can't stop CSA from evicting them.

[Ansem]

16 minutes ago, BringBackTheBlizzard said:

I know that and have pointed that out in this thread. The question is what the Candian legal system would do if this was challenged in the courts. The CSA doesn't have tens to hundreds of millions to compensate for lost franchise values.

But FIFA does and of all the leagues around, they wouldn't get MLS challenge their rules. FIFA rules are crystal clear that the country's association holds all the cards in their territory and any team needs their stamp of approval to operate, which CSA did for MLS Canadian clubs.

When those clubs joined MLS, they had to ask CSA for their authorization to operate from Canada, I seriously doubt that the "sanction part being revocable" was not explained PRIOR to those clubs agreeing with the CSA rules.

To turn around now and cry foul would be thrown out by the courts except in the case of possible financial compensations

[baulderdash77]

Those compensation lawsuits could be huge though.  

Remember that the CSA is a sanctioning body.  They control rules and sanctioning status.  They probably and don't want to create a new CPL and stick it to MLS because that would be damaging a private entity to benefit another competing private entity.

They can definitely say "These are the sanctioning rules for D1 in Canada ( stadium requirements, owner requirements, program requirements, turf styles, Canadian content rules, etc).  If you're going to be D1 you have to follow the rules.

 

[zen]

 

39 minutes ago, michaeltfc91 said:

 

As much as I absolutely love Toronto FC, I am a Canadian soccer fan first and foremost. But honest question, let's say Victor "forces" the 3 MLS teams into the CPL, will this actually benefit Canadian soccer?

We have 3 MLS teams each averaging over 20,000 fans per game that are actually playing and developing a good amount of Canadian players (about 8-12 Canadians usually involved per week total). The problem with MLS is that there are only 2 Canadians playing on American teams which is not good, but the Canadian teams are doing their part.

CPL can do just fine with 8-10 Canadian markets on top of the 3 MLS teams, I think this will be best case scenario. A Hamilton and 2nd team in Toronto can and should still be able to draw about 8,000 fans let's say if the league is competitive enough. There is no issue if the CPL is a quality second division league that helps produce young players, while also employing fringe MNT veterans Straith, Haber, Jakovic, Hainault etc.

I do hope the CPL succeeds and will support a team in the GTA as long as whatever the plan is is not at the expense of Toronto FC. I would rather watch players like Giovinco dazzle us than watch Issey. If I could do both that would be ideal. I agree, as I've stated before in the thread I think even with the CPL, having a continued stake in MLS is valuable to us in the long run.

 

[Ansem]

3 minutes ago, baulderdash77 said:

Those compensation lawsuits could be huge though.  

Remember that the CSA is a sanctioning body.  They control rules and sanctioning status.  They probably and don't want to create a new CPL and stick it to MLS because that would be damaging a private entity to benefit another competing private entity.

They can definitely say "These are the sanctioning rules for D1 in Canada ( stadium requirements, owner requirements, program requirements, turf styles, Canadian content rules, etc).  If you're going to be D1 you have to follow the rules.

 

We have to remember that FIFA could at anytime severely sanction MLS for going to court. In the grand scheme of things, FIFA executives wouldn't lose sleep over MLS and FIFA most likely already siding with the CSA on the matter.

1-According to FIFA rules, the CSA has 100% the right to evict the 3 MLS teams from Canada. MLS challenging that in court is a direct challenge against FIFA, not only the CSA. FIFA could easily sanction both the USSF and MLS for dragging this into courts.

2-However, the big question is: does the CSA have the power to drag those 3 teams in CPL by force? Against the owner's and MLS will, I don't think so and that would perhaps start a legal battle, but even then, in every scenarios, FIFA holds all the cards.

Like I keep repeating, Victor would have never picked the Guardian to make such a threat against the MLS if he hadn't done his homework.

[Ansem]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

 

I do hope the CPL succeeds and will support a team in the GTA as long as whatever the plan is is not at the expense of Toronto FC. I would rather watch players like Giovinco dazzle us than watch Issey. If I could do both that would be ideal. I agree, as I've stated before in rhe thread I think even with the CPL, having a stake in MLS is valuable to us in the long run.

 

At this point, I can live with MLS still being in Canada but I don't want it to be at our national program and CPL expense.

Toronto is big enough for 2 soccer teams in 2 division 1 leagues. I would have an issue if Toronto FC aggressively tried to compete against CPL in the rest of Ontario.

Same for Montreal. They have a history in Montreal and have the Montreal Metro area locked down. But I would disapprove Impact trying to compete with CPL in the rest of Quebec and the Maritimes, same for Whitecaps.

MLS Teams should stick to their current markets and leave CPL alone.

[shorty]

12 minutes ago, Ansem said:

We have to remember that FIFA could at anytime severely sanction MLS for going to court. In the grand scheme of things, FIFA executives wouldn't lose sleep over MLS and FIFA most likely already siding with the CSA on the matter.

1-According to FIFA rules, the CSA has 100% the right to evict the 3 MLS teams from Canada. MLS challenging that in court is a direct challenge against FIFA, not only the CSA. FIFA could easily sanction both the USSF and MLS for dragging this into courts.

2-However, the big question is: does the CSA have the power to drag those 3 teams in CPL by force? Against the owner's and MLS will, I don't think so and that would perhaps start a legal battle, but even then, in every scenarios, FIFA holds all the cards.

Like I keep repeating, Victor would have never picked the Guardian to make such a threat against the MLS if he hadn't done his homework.

I agree on the homework part. Not only that, if he has truly done his homework he will have spoken with Saputo, Manning, and Kerfoot/Nash before giving the interview, and they will have a common endgame, likely the rumoured changes to the domestic rule. Makes no sense for Victor to start a war and set off bombs in his own house. A threat like that is either insane or orchestrated. 

[Ansem]

6 minutes ago, shorty said:

I agree on the homework part. Not only that, if he has truly done his homework he will have spoken with Saputo, Manning, and Kerfoot/Nash before giving the interview, and they will have a common endgame, likely the rumoured changes to the domestic rule. Makes no sense for Victor to start a war and set off bombs in his own house. A threat like that is either insane or orchestrated. 

Perhaps, Victor already knew that the big 3 aren't losing sleep over Canadians not playing in MLS. If Canadians owners have little power in the NHL, you seriously think Canadian MLS owners have any kind of power whatsoever in Major League Soccer? (man that name sucks)

 

[shorty]

Not sure what you mean by the last part, Ansem.  I think you're absolutely right that they don't have a lot of power within the league, other than points that have already been made about the Cdn teams being top producers within the league who wouldn't make MLS nearly as much money if they were forced to relocate to current expansion candidates.  In fact, none of the teams likely have the corresponding power of NHL owners because of the difference in structure, Cdn or otherwise.  The reason I think it might be orchestrated is that Vic, on behalf of the CSA, wants to create opportunities for Cdn players, and the MLS franchises I would guess are losing sleep in that they want to have a fair market for the players they are producing through their academies.  They are spending a ton on players that are harder to move within their own league, purely because of an unbalanced league rule which uses a tenuous trade law argument in its own defense.  Therefore, their interests and Vic's align.  I suspect that together they feel they can gamble and play hardball with the MLS, a. because MLS can't afford to both lose the revenue from those three cities AND the expansion fees when they relocate to cities that would otherwise pay many millions, and b. because they have assessed their legal/quasi-legal (FIFA) footing and feel it is solid.  Vic's fall-back plan would be that the CPL would be glad to include a version of those three teams (if it ever came to that), while the MLS teams are presumably confident enough in the gambit that they don't feel Vic would ever have to follow through on the threat and that MLS will make some kind of change (and we have already heard rumours that it is coming). 

[C2SKI]

“What we don’t want to do is have a situation where we’re competing for players with the CPL teams. I don’t think that’s going to happen.”

What an arrogant twat. Does he really think they should have a monopoly on Canadian talent? I hope the other owners/clubs in this country take that as an insult, and start competing more for talent. Let MLSE field a team in the CPL and treat it like a B team. It'll be fun watching them get stomped in yet another league. Maybe it won't take a decade for them to start competing this time around. 

In truth though, MLSE has proven that they're willing to invest in the sport.I imagine they would invest as much as they deemed necessary for them to compete for the title. It is insulting how low he envisions the level being, but It's up to the other clubs, and fans to prove him wrong.

[Ansem]

21 minutes ago, shorty said:

Not sure what you mean by the last part, Ansem.  I think you're absolutely right that they don't have a lot of power within the league, other than points that have already been made about the Cdn teams being top producers within the league who wouldn't make MLS nearly as much money if they were forced to relocate to current expansion candidates.  In fact, none of the teams likely have the corresponding power of NHL owners because of the difference in structure, Cdn or otherwise.  The reason I think it might be orchestrated is that Vic, on behalf of the CSA, wants to create opportunities for Cdn players, and the MLS franchises I would guess are losing sleep in that they want to have a fair market for the players they are producing through their academies.  They are spending a ton on players that are harder to move within their own league, purely because of an unbalanced league rule which uses a tenuous trade law argument in its own defense.  Therefore, their interests and Vic's align.  I suspect that together they feel they can gamble and play hardball with the MLS, a. because MLS can't afford to both lose the revenue from those three cities AND the expansion fees when they relocate to cities that would otherwise pay many millions, and b. because they have assessed their legal/quasi-legal (FIFA) footing and feel it is solid.  Vic's fall-back plan would be that the CPL would be glad to include a version of those three teams (if it ever came to that), while the MLS teams are presumably confident enough in the gambit that they don't feel Vic would ever have to follow through on the threat and that MLS will make some kind of change (and we have already heard rumours that it is coming). 

I think the bottom line is that the CSA wants CPL to succeed and produce quality players for our national program. MLS has been granted special permission to operate within Canada...It's a privilege, not a right.

If MLS and its Canadian Clubs can't do their part to contribute to the Canadian program and interfere with the success of the CPL, then they should rightfully be evicted from Canada.

At the end of the day, money talks. You have billionaires taking a ton of risk to start this league and sustain it. If MLS tries to trash their value within Canada and directly compete with them within Canada outside of the big 3 markets, you can be sure that the CPL owners will join unite to pressure CSA into doing something drastic to protect their investment. This would explain Victor having such a tough position against MLS and the Canadian Clubs, to make sure they get with the program or else.

[Ansem]

19 minutes ago, C2SKI said:

“What we don’t want to do is have a situation where we’re competing for players with the CPL teams. I don’t think that’s going to happen.”

What an arrogant twat. Does he really think they should have a monopoly on Canadian talent? I hope the other owners/clubs in this country take that as an insult, and start competing more for talent. Let MLSE field a team in the CPL and treat it like a B team. It'll be fun watching them get stomped in yet another league. Maybe it won't take a decade for them to start competing this time around. 

In truth though, MLSE has proven that they're willing to invest in the sport.I imagine they would invest as much as they deemed necessary for them to compete for the title. It is insulting how low he envisions the level being, but It's up to the other clubs, and fans to prove him wrong.

I think that MLSE will get a huge reality check after that meeting. They think (understandably so) that they own the place. Victor and CSA will draw the line in the sand.

1) No development teams in CPL

2) Working with MLS on a Canadian solution

3)Stay out of CPL way

[Rheo]

Does it enter anyone's mind that MLSE could be sincere in their hopes that the league succeeds.  Bottom line is the growth of the game in Canada makes them more money in the long run.  God help us that a billion dollar corporation might want to help the league

[shorty]

I see what you're saying, but I don't think MLS and the CPL are after the exact same market. There's overlap of course, but I think that an MLS domestic rule change and the establishment and population of the CPL can coexist. It just depends on the domestic rules and budgets of the CPL. A new rule in the MLS from a player point of view is going to give guys like Ashtone Morgan some decisions to make -- MLS depth with now more teams to choose from, or CPL probably starting role. From the MLS team point of view, if TFC sees no future for Morgan they can get something in return. Realistically the level in the MLS will be higher at least for the near future, so the fan base/branding for the CPL should be about seeing the local kids climb the ladder and have a bridge to higher leagues and the CanMNT, at least until the league grows to be as good as MLS and other comparables, God willing. If the market for that kind of branding exists in Canada, and I hope it does, it should be able to mostly co-exist with the MLS, I would think. Of course, no one will know the result of the experiment until it happens...

[michaeltfc91]

The fact that MLSE says they are open to discussing the league and want to partner with the CSA regarding the CPL is a good sign from MLSE. How are they supposed to know that the CPL wants to compete with MLS or how serious the CPL is yet?

I don't think we should be throwing MLSE under the bus, they have been doing a great job with Toronto FC and are willing to invest in CPL. Also, they are a multi billion dollar business that can help the CPL even if it is a reserve team / second Toronto team independent of Toronto FC. Obviously we don't want TFC U 20 in CPL, but that is something the CSA and MLSE can discuss, but so far MLSE hasn't done anything wrong that we know of

[matty]

2 hours ago, BrennanFan said:

VICTOR: No Gents, we won't be talking about that. I'm just here to inform you that you are losing your sanctioning and you will not be allowed to operate in Canada as of 2018

MLSE: You just started a war........

*several days later an ad appears on tv*

DONALDSON: The CSA is trying to destroy every we've worked so hard to build
DeROZAN: They want Toronto to return to the dark ages
DRAKE: Burn it down

*That night 10,000 Torontoians burn down the CSA hq that night*

Rogers would make Donaldson take part to avoid using a Leaf

[ted]

9 hours ago, CDNFootballer said:

So this Toronto Sun reporter, Kurtis Larson, seems to be out to lunch on the CPL. He's claiming it will be at a Usl PDL level...

I would not describe that as, "out to lunch". I would describe that as a pessimistic but probably realistic assessment of the potential league. With the player pool available being primarily Canadians playing in USL, PDL and colleges how can it be much better? More talented Canadians are currently being paid decent wages in MLS, NASL, and foreign leagues.

The idea that is totally, "out to lunch" is the utterly nonsensical proposition that Canadian teams will be forced to drop out of MLS or NASL and join this league in 2018. Not. Gonna. Happen.

 

48 minutes ago, Rheo said:

Does it enter anyone's mind that MLSE could be sincere in their hopes that the league succeeds.  Bottom line is the growth of the game in Canada makes them more money in the long run.  God help us that a billion dollar corporation might want to help the league

No kidding. Promoting the game in Canada and providing places that develop new talent could be seen as compatible with their business rather than competition.

[Ansem]

24 minutes ago, ted said:

I would not describe that as, "out to lunch". I would describe that as a pessimistic but probably realistic assessment of the potential league. With the player pool available being primarily Canadians playing in USL, PDL and colleges how can it be much better? More talented Canadians are currently being paid decent wages in MLS, NASL, and foreign leagues.

There's lots of Canadians not starting or seeing minutes around the world that would take a salary comparable to NASL to consistently start at home. The pool might not be huge but I wouldn't call it abysmal either. Just like in everything, it will take time for the pool of quality players to expand and get deeper.

That's Canada's reality. We've been negligent for decades, so we have to start from scratch. Cutting corners won't do us any good by associating ourselves with anything USSF related as it hasn't done anything in terms of results for our national program. That's a fact.

I also don't get this "Canadian pessimism" and idea we can't do anything on our own. Why can't we start from scratch like the rest of the world did at some point? Why can't we start from scratch like the Americans did around 94 when soccer was a joke in the US? Why is it so unbelievable to claim that our Canadian players can close the gap with American players over time? Will it be immediate? No. Will it take time? Yes.

Fact is that not enough Canadians plays often and at a higher level. It's usually one or the other, rarely both, hence when you throw them in WCQ and Gold Cup, they can't keep up. CPL and it's academy will be a huge step forward to provide both playing opportunity and a higher level than we currently have. Yes it will take time but can we stop saying CPL will forever be at USL level?

Last time I checked, this country had very gifted athletes in all disciplines, it just happens that in regards to soccer, we're talking about close to 25 years of neglect where our athletes couldn't learn the game at home. Give them the same facilities, coaches, technical trainers and playing opportunities at a higher level and we will improve and produce quality players.

My god...can we stop using the USSF crutches that will never make us run again and use the CPL medicine that will at least start the healing process??? Some optimism please, we have smart and capable people in this country.

[Viruk42]

19 minutes ago, ted said:

I would not describe that as, "out to lunch". I would describe that as a pessimistic but probably realistic assessment of the potential league. With the player pool available being primarily Canadians playing in USL, PDL and colleges how can it be much better? More talented Canadians are currently being paid decent wages in MLS, NASL, and foreign leagues.

The idea that is totally, "out to lunch" is the utterly nonsensical proposition that Canadian teams will be forced to drop out of MLS or NASL and join this league in 2018. Not. Gonna. Happen.

Why is the player pool primarily USL, PDL, and colleges? Everything I've read has suggested that they will be paying similar wages as the NASL, and if they can bring decent talent in, why couldn't others? Would you rather play 3rd division in Norway or "1st" division at home?

Furthermore, I fully expect the NASL tams will be in the CPL. Ottawa right away, Edmonton within a couple years at most, if not right away. The CSA will not let them stay in the NASL, which frankly seems to be falling apart anyway.

[ted]

If you think that you could fill the rosters of CanPL teams using players from foreign leagues I have to respectfully disagree. The realistic makeup of CanPL teams in 2018 (and likely for the first five years) are kids playing right now in the USL, PDL and colleges.

Of course they will get some players to choose CanPL over D3 in Norway or whatever but that will represent, at best 25% of the roster spots.

Of course the league will improve, I AM talking about starting from scratch, and "scratch" in this context is USL/PDL/College level players. The whole point is to improve and build and someday we can all hope it becomes a true D1. It will not be that in 2018 no matter how hard you wish it to be so.

[shermanator]

6 minutes ago, ted said:

If you think that you could fill the rosters of CanPL teams using players from foreign leagues I have to respectfully disagree. The realistic makeup of CanPL teams in 2018 (and likely for the first five years) are kids playing right now in the USL, PDL and colleges.

Of course they will get some players to choose CanPL over D3 in Norway or whatever but that will represent, at best 25% of the roster spots.

Of course the league will improve, I AM talking about starting from scratch, and "scratch" in this context is USL/PDL/College level players. The whole point is to improve and build and someday we can all hope it becomes a true D1. It will not be that in 2018 no matter how hard you wish it to be so.

I would argue that the CPL could get players on MLS / NASL contracts that are not getting minutes with the first team, but could be seen as too good for the reserve teams, via loan agreements. Current players that could fit the mould are: Roberts, Babouli, Adekugbe, McKendry, Bustos, Froese, Levis, Davies, Lefevre, Choiniere, Jackson-Hamel, Gagnon-Lapare, Crepeau, Laryea, Conte, de Bellis, Zebie, Farago and Aleksic.

If the CPL is aiming for an NASL caliber of play, and based on the rumoured numbers thrown about by Rollins et al that's what it sounds like, then I think this is where there can be mutual gains for both parties. MLS get minutes for their depth players at a better quality of player than what they have for their reserve teams, and CPL get better quality of Canadian players than what would be available at the USL / PDL level.

[1996]

It looks like the majority of people on here that would love to see the CSA force the successful pro  3 MLS Canadian  teams into the CPL or out of the MLS and probably out of soccer seem to be people  in the non MLS Canadian cities. What these 3 MLS cities have done is raise the profile of soccer in general in Canada, they have filled their stadiums on a consistent basis, showing all the soccer haters that pro soccer in Canada can fill stadiums just like the other major sports. They have spent millions raising the profile of the game to the level it has not been since the old NASL days. All the other attempts to raise the profile of the pro game in Canada after the old NASL folded  failed miserably. These  Canadian MLS teams have all spent millions on developing Canadian players through their academies and it's still way too early days to see the fruits  of their labour  yet, give these academies another 10 years before we start  criticizing them. I find it very interesting that the CFL seems to be behind some of this push for a Canadian league, the CFL would love nothing better than to have the CSA force the 3 MLS Canadian teams  out of the MLS, so that the CFL can have these three big Canadian cities all to themselves once again and not have to compete with the MLS in Canada's 3 biggest cities, because as we are seeing ever since the MLS has arrived in Canada's three big cities CFL  attendance has gone down significantly in Toronto and Vancouver and even in Montreal.

[Complete Homer]

As long as they start the quota low - say 30% year one and add 5% a year until hitting the desired mark, there is no reason to expect that the quality would he vastly below NASL

 

If they start at 75%, those expectations of a USL level or lower might be realistic

 

I did a breakdown a way back to see what kind of player pool could be expected. Assuming 8 teams and a 50% player quota, we would require all single-nation players abroad playing at a level comparable or lower to NASL to come home, 1/4 of dual nationals in lower leagues to come home (using Canuck_Abroad's database, didn't want to assume people who had one canadian parent and were born abroad would be interested), all Canadians in USL who are not already on a Canadian squad or are perceived to have the talent to possibly make the MLS (ex. Laryea is not coming back in 2018), a single round CIS draft where each team gets 1 player signed, all players currently on Canadian NASL players to come over (I assumed both Edmonton and Ottawa would jump), and a number of handpicked guys that I think could stick around for the chance to play in the league.

The total was about 110 players, enough for a 50% quota without resorting to L10/PDL/PLSQ players. Doable, but I think the league is better off with an escalating quota to avoid being dismissed by the mainstream as awful quality

[Complete Homer]

2 minutes ago, 1996 said:

It looks like the majority of people on here that would love to see the CSA force the successful pro  3 MLS Canadian  teams into the CPL or out of the MLS and probably out of soccer seem to be people  in the non MLS Canadian cities. What these 3 MLS cities have done is raise the profile of soccer in general in Canada, they have filled their stadiums on a consistent basis, showing all the soccer haters that pro soccer in Canada can fill stadiums just like the other major sports. They have spent millions raising the profile of the game to the level it has not been since the old NASL days. All the other attempts to raise the profile after the pro game in Canada after the old NASL folded  failed miserably. These  Canadian MLS teams have all spent millions on developing Canadian players through their academies and it's still way too early days to see the fruits  of their labour  yet, give these academies another 10 years before we start  criticizing them. I find it very interesting that the CFL seems to be behind some of this push for a Canadian league, the CFL would love nothing better than to have the CSA force the 3 MLS Canadian teams  out of the MLS, so that the CFL can have these three big Canadian cities all to themselves once again and not have to compete with the MLS in Canada's 3 biggest cities, because as we are seeing ever since the MLS has arrived in Canada's three big cities attendance has gone down significantly in Toronto and Vancouver and even in Montreal.

That's not at all true. Most people want amicable relations between the league, two or three have stated a want to force them over